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Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!

  
 
groob
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p.59 #1 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




bs kite wrote:
Well I had no way of knowing that.



That is certainly to your credit.



Jul 03, 2023 at 07:46 AM
bs kite
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p.59 #2 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


groob wrote:
That is certainly to your credit.


Thank you






Jul 03, 2023 at 08:12 AM
urbanwild
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p.59 #3 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


NikonClio64 wrote:
We Nikonians are likely benefiting from the R&D invested by Nikon for some years prior to 2018 to build the Z System. Their strategy to launch 40-50 lenses by 2025 required careful planning, alongside big commitments supporting teams of expert engineers. They obviously learned a lot from the R&D invested into the Nikon 1 system, when Nikon introduced several leading features in 2011.

With all the earlier Nikon glass besides 90+ AFS F mount lenses, the Z Mount has proved a wise strategic decision to buy into, even prior to the Z9 and now the Z8.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1807830/14#16252470

During the pandemic, with parts
...Show more

I think it was a bit baffling though that they didn't push back much. Perhaps the smart marketing person would suggest not adding fuel to the board but I can think of a couple of people who left Nikon after a lot of years because they thought they would sell their gear before it's considered a fraction of the value. One of those people now wishes he didn't make the move but it was too costly to change systems once so he won't go back. I'm sure there were a a lot of stories like this and I think if Nikon put people at ease somewhat it would have helped. Glad I have the gear I have.



Jul 03, 2023 at 02:17 PM
1bwana1
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p.59 #4 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


NikonClio64 wrote:
We Nikonians are likely benefiting from the R&D invested by Nikon for some years prior to 2018 to build the Z System. Their strategy to launch 40-50 lenses by 2025 required careful planning, alongside big commitments supporting teams of expert engineers. They obviously learned a lot from the R&D invested into the Nikon 1 system, when Nikon introduced several leading features in 2011.

With all the earlier Nikon glass besides 90+ AFS F mount lenses, the Z Mount has proved a wise strategic decision to buy into, even prior to the Z9 and now the Z8.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1807830/14#16252470

During the pandemic, with parts
...Show more


Nikon didn't push back because they were not in a position to do so. The quoted revisionist view of how Nikon entered the mirrorless market with a strategic plan dating years prior to 2018 flies in the face of how the market actually developed, and the late entry of Nikon into the mirrorless market. This history is not speculative, but comes directly from the mouths of both Nikon and Sony executives who were responsible for their company's mirrorless strategies. The mistakes by Nikon in getting on board with mirrorless had dire consequences for Nikon. It cost them a leading position in the industry, driving their market share in mirrorless (the only growth market in cameras) to 5th place at 7.5%. It also cost them their primary home County manufacturing base. Pretty much all off shore now. Nikon still suffers badly from this mistake. Nikon's initial FF mirrorless offerings the Z6/7 cameras were an uncompetitive, reputation damaging, disaster. They rightfully underperformed in the market as admitted by Nikon's CEO. Currently Nikon still has only one competitive camera in the market (I said competitive, not good/bad cameras) , and sells it in two form factors. This one camera, two form factor strategy is partly a result of Nikon's inability to find a second source for a stacked sensor. Note that the success of this camera is to a large extent being driven by built up demand by existing Nikon users who have been waiting for a competitive Nikon mirrorless camera, not by new Nikon users. Nikon will need to broaden this success if they hope to be a market share leader again one day. Still, as of this moment Nikon is playing good game of catch-up, and will be for a few more years.

As recently as 2021 Nikon senior management acknowledged the mistakes that it made in recognizing the true potential of the mirrorless camera architecture. He is a quote from Mr Ikegami.


Ikegami, in an interview with Toyo Keizai, says that Nikon’s poor showing can be directly tied to its slow transition to mirrorless. While Sony has experienced nothing but huge growth, Nikon was too late to the game.

“I wasn’t afraid of conflict (with SLR cameras), but rather I wasn’t looking at the market calmly and objectively,” he says, translated from Japanese. “I was most concerned about how much the performance of the electronic viewfinder (EVF) can be improved, and the number of shots can be increased.”

Ikegami says that he was unconvinced that mirrorless cameras would be able to compete with the number of photos per battery that DSLRs could manage, saying that the 500 photos a mirrorless camera could capture did not look favorable compared to a DSLR’s 1000 shots.

“I was wondering if it would be accepted by… professionals and high amateurs,” he says.

What I find most amazing is that it seems Sony may have fostered just such a view from Nikon, and Canon on purpose. Sony's Mr Ishizuka said that Sony had solved the issues Mr Ikegami mentioned, plus had the stacked sensors ready for quite some time before releasing them in products. Sony delayed exposing these for two reasons. First, to give Sony the chance to develop a fully competitive lens lineup so that when the bodies were released the customers could maximize value and the mirrorless ecosystem would compete favorably with the existing manufacturers. Second to keep the management at competitors from taking mirrorless seriously and investing in developing mirrorless systems. In Nikons case it appears from Mr Ikeami's remarks that this is exactly what happened. Sony has a long term vision of being number 1 in AV content creation tools, and seems to be executing in amazing ways. One thing I didn't realize is that as of today 48% of Sony's camera bushiness (not video camera business) is from cameras targeted to sell to the content/creator vlogger market. Nikon, and Canon haven't even gotten around to addressing this market in a serious way yet.


Mr Ishizuka has recently published a book on his time with Sony. I haven't found an English version to read yet. But here is a small bit of what he had to say about the sandbagging mirrorless issue.


Ishizuka said in the recent interview that part of Sony’s mirrorless strategy was to catch DSLR manufacturers off guard by getting them to think that mirrorless development was “not a big deal.”

“I wanted them to think, ‘Sony still has a long way to go,'” Ishizuka said. “I hoped that the common sentiment in the world of professionals and advanced amateurs, mirrorless cameras are no match for digital single-lens reflex cameras would be maintained until we were ready for our reversal.”

All of this is not to say that a certain amount of luck and favorable timing was not a big part of Sony's success in the camera market. It surely must have been. This is all very interesting to me, and one day would make a great business case study for someone's Masters or PHD paper.



Jul 03, 2023 at 03:43 PM
bs kite
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p.59 #5 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


1bwana1 wrote:
Nikon didn't push back because they were not in a position to do so. The quoted revisionist view of how Nikon entered the mirrorless market with a strategic plan dating years prior to 2018 flies in the face of how the market actually developed, and the late entry of Nikon into the mirrorless market. This history is not speculative, but comes directly from the mouths of both Nikon and Sony executives who were responsible for their company's mirrorless strategies. The mistakes by Nikon in getting on board with mirrorless had dire consequences for Nikon. It cost them a leading position
...Show more

I read the entire piece you wrote here. The reason I believe it is because there are parts of it I know to be true. Regarding mirrorless, Nikon dragged its feet. I remember. I see why the Nikon exec was not high on mirrorless: It eats batteries!!

For several reasons I think I will have to stick with this Z8. But boy does it go through batteries. I carry 2 fully charged ones on a LensCoat belt pack that someone of FM recommended (thanks... good solution).

Regarding Nikon's future Steve, I think they learned their lesson. Don't you?

Robert







Jul 03, 2023 at 08:54 PM
1bwana1
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p.59 #6 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




bs kite wrote:
I read the entire piece you wrote here. The reason I believe it is because there are parts of it I know to be true. Regarding mirrorless, Nikon dragged its feet. I remember. I see why the Nikon exec was not high on mirrorless: It eats batteries!!

For several reasons I think I will have to stick with this Z8. But boy does it go through batteries. I carry 2 fully charged ones on a LensCoat belt pack that someone of FM recommended (thanks... good solution).

Regarding Nikon's future Steve, I think they learned their lesson. Don't you?

Robert


...Show more

Yes mirrorless does use much more battery than DSLR. But it does amazing things with it.

Nikon is now fully committed to mirrorless and making fully competitive cameras in the Z8/9. Add in the superb lens collection and Nikon becomes a compelling choice in a system. You will be very well served by Nikon in your work Robert.



Jul 04, 2023 at 01:18 AM
RobCD
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p.59 #7 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


bs kite wrote:
Regarding mirrorless, Nikon dragged its feet. I remember. I see why the Nikon exec was not high on mirrorless: It eats batteries!!



Regardless of personal preference, Nikon really dropped the ball by waiting too long and they left themselves little margin for error. It was clear to many of us years ago where this was going and Nikon was too stubborn for too long. If Nikon had woken up when they should have, we'd have more Z lenses, probably another generation of Z cameras and maybe even better battery life.



Jul 04, 2023 at 11:54 AM
FrankA373
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p.59 #8 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


And yet Nikon is pretty darn good right now. The only thing missing for me is a 600 PF. The 180-600 is compelling too. The Z8/9 are top notch and it’s splitting hairs down to nanometers for differences with other brands. If they could come out with crop sensor in the mid 30 MP with great autofocus that would be excellent. Slow or not Nikon is in good shape. YMMV.


Jul 04, 2023 at 01:43 PM
1bwana1
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p.59 #9 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!



FrankA373 wrote:
And yet Nikon is pretty darn good right now. The only thing missing for me is a 600 PF. The 180-600 is compelling too. The Z8/9 are top notch and it’s splitting hairs down to nanometers for differences with other brands. If they could come out with crop sensor in the mid 30 MP with great autofocus that would be excellent. Slow or not Nikon is in good shape. YMMV.



Nikon is in good shape if you want long primes for birds and wildlife. Nikon has only one competative camera that is offered in two form factors. The rest of its offerings are one or two generations behind. Relying on the sales of its one model it has risen for the first time In years out of 5th place in mirrorless to a weak 3rd at only 12% market share. That will not sustain unless it can propagate its success with the Z8/9 accross its offerings. Nikon is showing signs of recovery and competativeness. But still has a ways to go.



Jul 04, 2023 at 02:33 PM
FrankA373
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p.59 #10 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Shame on Nikon. Bad Nikon. Bad. Sorry I couldn’t resist and don’t mean to be disrespectful. I respectfully don’t think it’s as bad as you portray Nikon. Cameras today are beyond what most of us ever need yet it’s not enough. I think Nikon will be just fine. It doesn’t matter what position they are in based on stats or what they did or didn’t do in the past. They have some good things going on with more to come. Of course the other companies will respond and so the game continues.


Jul 04, 2023 at 03:02 PM
 


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1bwana1
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p.59 #11 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


FrankA373 wrote:
Shame on Nikon. Bad Nikon. Bad. Sorry I couldn’t resist and don’t mean to be disrespectful. I respectfully don’t think it’s as bad as you portray Nikon. Cameras today are beyond what most of us ever need yet it’s not enough. I think Nikon will be just fine. It doesn’t matter what position they are in based on stats or what they did or didn’t do in the past. They have some good things going on with more to come. Of course the other companies will respond and so the game continues.


I think you are over reacting to what I said. I also think Nikon has some very good things going on, and will be just fine in the long run. Still, it is my view that they are at the beginning of their recovery with some way still to go.

I disagree with you and believe that stats like market share do matter very much, and what they did or didn't do that put them in their present position does matter very much. Ask Nikon's BOD and share holders about that. But, momentum does matter more, and Nikon's current direction is very positive.



Jul 04, 2023 at 04:27 PM
groob
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p.59 #12 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




1bwana1 wrote:
I think you are over reacting to what I said. I also think Nikon has some very good things going on, and will be just fine in the long run. Still, it is my view that they are at the beginning of their recovery with some way still to go.

I disagree with you and believe that stats like market share do matter very much, and what they did or didn't do that put them in their present position does matter very much. Ask Nikon's BOD and share holders about that. But, momentum does matter more, and Nikon's current direction is
...Show more

The good thing (for consumers) about Nikon being late to the mirrorless party and losing market share is that Nikon cannot afford to rest on its laurels or release a bad product. This is purely speculation, but I’m very confident that Nikon will now have a well-differentiated and highly competent line going forward, and seeing as Nikon is the only company that is interested in innovating new lenses, I’m happy to be in the Nikon camp. The one thing Nikon hasn’t proven is that it can make a non-stacked sensor camera that can compete with Canon’s and Sony’s offerings. But if Canon can do it, Nikon can do it. And while it seems likely to me that Sony will maintain a small lead in AF with its AI software, the practical difference in output will be basically nill. Of course, it’ll leave plenty of fodder for internet fora.



Jul 04, 2023 at 08:01 PM
NikonClio64
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p.59 #13 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/573195

https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/573199

Several interacting factors must explain the how and why of the dynamics of the Japanese market share. We common folk can only guess at these at best. The real factors are known only to executives within Nikon and the other Japanese camera companies – which are all interknitted in cross licences and shared products (eg Hikari Glass).

Both Toyo Kezai articles noted Nikon has been introducing mirrorless cameras since 2011, but stopped new mirrorless products after 2015. 2015 was the year Nikon announced their restructuring. In light of R&D lead in overheads, they must have decided to switch priority to their already planned Z System to be ready 3 years later. It’s is strange the Nikon Executive did not even mention why and how Nikon timed out its DSLR production, and ramped up its Z Line. It, however, is understandable (this being secretive Nikon), why he kept silent about the real story of the Z System R&D – especially the years invested in its development prior to 2018.

However one looks back in recent history, the F-Mount System peaked in excellence with the D5, D500 in 2016, D850 and 105 f1.4E in 2017, and the 180-400mm f/4 TC soon after. Nevertheless, the release of new DSLRs also dropped off after 2018 – we only got only the low volume D6 and D780. The preceding years to 2018 were successful for mid-range to Pro DSLRs: the flagships, D750, D850 and other models that sold well and sold F-Mount lenses.

The D850 has been one of Nikon’s top sellers that pioneered Nikon’s focus on the Pro/Hobbyist market. It’s likely the Z8 is inheriting this role.

The D780 is the best hybrid DSLR-MILC ever. It is ideal for the Nikonian invested in their F-mount glass. It Is interesting Nikon had decided NOT to upgrade its D850. A D880/d860 was widely hoped for, judging from forum chatter. Hypothetical speculation…but a D880 with the best of the Z7 Mirrorless and Sensor with D6 Autofocus would have kept many happy campers in the F System (i.e. reticent to buy Mirrorless)! I agree 100% with Thom Hogan that the D6 is Nikon’s best DSLR ever made. The quality of its AF has to be learned and experienced to be believed. In challenging situations it outperforms any Mirrorless – as judged by the Z9. Its lowlight Image Quality remains an industry standard.

It was the crash in the prior high volume sales of entry-level DSLRs that hit Nikon’s earnings over 2019/2020 so hard. Shutting down this industry must have been the primary cause of the slump in the pandemic year - "In April (Nikon's sales), the number of interchangeable lens cameras sold decreased by 80% compared to the same month of the previous year, and the first quarter (April to June 2020) was really tough."

Nikon's Restructure was announced publicly in 2015 – so this must have been preceded by months in meetings and re-strategizing. Apparently, one major reason was to respond to the spread of smartphones, when the digital camera market slumped under 1/10 of its peak. It would have required consolidated parallel progress in R&D with forward planning of production of Z Products.

To conclude…. the primary cause of Nikon's 2019-2020 deficits was the loss of the consumer DSLR sales and writing off inventory and factories. Only Nikon knows how and why they timed the reduction of their entry DSLR production while timing their planned launch of the Z System in mid-2018. Possibly, Nikon management ran the entry DSLR production to the bitter end before closing shop with losses of those factories using older methods – so 2019 not 2014 or 2015.



1bwana1 wrote:
Nikon didn't push back because they were not in a position to do so. The quoted revisionist view of how Nikon entered the mirrorless market with a strategic plan dating years prior to 2018 flies in the face of how the market actually developed, and the late entry of Nikon into the mirrorless market. This history is not speculative, but comes directly from the mouths of both Nikon and Sony executives who were responsible for their company's mirrorless strategies. The mistakes by Nikon in getting on board with mirrorless had dire consequences for Nikon. It cost them a leading position
...Show more




Jul 05, 2023 at 02:33 AM
NikonClio64
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p.59 #14 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


1bwana1 wrote:
Nikon's initial FF mirrorless offerings the Z6/7 cameras were an uncompetitive, reputation damaging, disaster.


This inflammatory statement fails scrutiny. the Z6/7 cameras were most definitely NOT "....an uncompetitive, reputation damaging, disaster….”
The sales were/are respectable based on underreported serial number data on photosynthesis.co.nz.

And out in the real world, the Z7 won received the high-end camera of the year award at Dpreview, and the Z6 with the 14-24 f2.8S won TIPA award each. More recently, the Z6 II and Z7 II won a respective TIPA award, so did the Z50. "Best Full-Frame Camera, Expert" etc.

These facts are archived on NR:
https://nikonrumors.com/2021/05/20/nikon-wins-some-awards.aspx/



Edited on Jul 05, 2023 at 02:51 AM · View previous versions



Jul 05, 2023 at 02:36 AM
NikonClio64
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p.59 #15 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


groob wrote:
The good thing (for consumers) about Nikon being late to the mirrorless party and losing market share is that Nikon cannot afford to rest on its laurels or release a bad product. This is purely speculation, but I’m very confident that Nikon will now have a well-differentiated and highly competent line going forward, and seeing as Nikon is the only company that is interested in innovating new lenses, I’m happy to be in the Nikon camp. The one thing Nikon hasn’t proven is that it can make a non-stacked sensor camera that can compete with Canon’s and Sony’s offerings. But
...Show more

I agree. It is equally questionable how many photographers would have bought into a FX Mirrorless system that fell short of the standards of Nikon industry leading DSLRs circa 2011-2016/7.... Nikon's entry with the Z7 and then Z6 have excellent EVFs and user-friendly Menu systems. The Z7 is still one of the best ILCs for landscape and macro photographer on the market.

Above all, Nikon planned out its highly strategic Z Mount carefully. In retrospect, a F-mount Nikon FX would probably have been a lame duck, to put it mildly... bad for revenue besides penalties to optimal lens design

Any assessment of a modern camera system is about more than its cameras: the lenses are as important - if not more so - to market earnings. Lenses take much longer for R&D to design, refine and finalize before they get near the factory for mass production.

# A modern high quality Lens takes 2-3 years at minimum to develop, and typically it takes much longer before its final approved production.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2022/02/why-manufacturers-make-a-specific-camera-lens/

# No matter how the Z System announcement is interpreted (delayed etc) Nikon would have had to have planned out the new Z mount and designed its optics carefully. Similar lead in times apply to cameras, particularly for an entirely new system - Thom Hogan states 2-3 years is typical. This would not only have applied to the Z9 as well with its stacked-sensor, EXPEED7 and all

To summarize, the slower growth of the Z Nikkor line up is overlooked in these discussions of market share, let alone sales. The 1st Z Lens Roadmap (August 2018) listed only 1 zoom and 3 primes for 2018: followed by 6 in 2019. Then 1 Uwide f2.8S zoom with 2 primes in 2020. Effectively we Nikonians had a total of 4 only Z Nikkors in 2019 (Total = 7) - counting the exotic 58 f0.95S and the 70-200 f2.8S finally launched in January 2020, but delayed by months for most Nikon Z owners. The Z System has taken almost 4 years to mature – consider the Z Lenses released by early 2022. It has been hard to resist the Three f2.8 Dragons, and/or the world’s best Z Telephotos plus more. Sales of these Z Nikkors is as important, even more so, to explain Nikon’s current state of fiscal health.

Slava Nikon !



Jul 05, 2023 at 02:40 AM
dasams
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p.59 #16 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


FrankA373 wrote:
And yet Nikon is pretty darn good right now. The only thing missing for me is a 600 PF.


Agree 100% 👍



Jul 05, 2023 at 03:24 AM
1bwana1
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p.59 #17 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Pages written trying to explain away straight forward statements by Nikon's own senior management.

In order to believe that complex and illogical story we must accept that Nikon brilliantly planned and executed its fall from number 2 to number 5 in market share, the evaporation of billions in shareholder equity, and the mountains of bad press it received over the last few years.

The simple story makes more sense to me. Nikon suffered from a poor and late entry into the FF ICL mirrorless camera market. This happened in conjunction with the general fall in camera demand which exaggerated the impact of this mistake. The fall in market share and financial damage this caused is very well documented. These benchmarks stand in stark contrast to other companies that lead in the shift to smartphone photography and the adoption of superior mirrorless imaging technologies.

In simple terms the CEO of Nikon also publicly acknowledged the the original Z6/7 cameras "underperformed". Once again I will take his word on that.

It really is that simple...

None of this implies that Nikon has not designed a well thought out lens mount, and lens ecosystem. I believe it has. None of this implies that Nikon cannot design and build very competitive mirrorless camera bodies. The Z8/9 camera confirms that Nikon can and will. But it remains obvious that the lens ecosystem is a few years behind in being brought to market, and that the camera bodies are also. Nikon still has some catchup to do overall. However, if what on wants/needs is handled by the excellent current lenses offered, and the also excellent Z8/9 bodies, then Nikon can be considered caught up for all practical purposes.



Jul 05, 2023 at 05:27 AM
NikonClio64
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p.59 #18 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Pages written proselytizing a Sony centric narrative, selling the latter company as all seeing. And you try and peddle the lie that the Z6 and Z7 are a disaster. Reading the interview with the Nikon Executive is most certainly not doom and gloom as you try and sell it here. Nikon had no options in its situation but to wind up DSLR when this was timeous, as it restructured its Imaging Division, starting from 2015.

Reading objectively into this history cannot ignore the facts that Nikon had to wind down and write off its DSLR focus, as it simultaneously developed the Z System from the foundations of their CX N 1 Mirrorless technology. The strategic decisions must have been made within Nikon prior to going public in 2015.

As I pointed out above, the R&D had to have started some years previously, particularly to design all the recently launched Z lenses. Nikon has performed remarkably well to wind up its DSLR focus and build up a highly competitive Z System.



Edited on Jul 05, 2023 at 09:30 AM · View previous versions



Jul 05, 2023 at 09:21 AM
NikonClio64
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p.59 #19 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


This article presents a more balanced narrative, derived from the original interviews with Ishizuka. Nikon has done remarkably well with its Z System, and it's highly unlikely that Nikon could have ever launched these products earlier than 2018.

https://petapixel.com/2023/05/01/sony-didnt-have-a-clever-mirrorless-plan-to-fool-canon-and-nikon/

“By 2016, it was clear that the DSLR had had its day as shipments plunged while mirrorless remained relatively static. Sony didn’t go “professional” until 2016, yet what’s more remarkable is that Nikon actually shipped a Z-system camera two short years later. Yes, the lens lineup has taken longer to materialize but it’s filling out with a far more strategic focus. Even more remarkable, is that (according to the BCN Awards) Canon now holds 31% of the mirrorless market to Sony’s 29%.”

Looking back a couple of years, the Nikon Z 2018 launch followed the 2016 DSLR crash by only 2 years. Three years later, System Z had matured into 6 cameras - including the Pro MILC Z9 only 3 years later – with 26 Z Nikkors launched. Then it reached 8 cameras and 40 Z Nikkors in under 5 years. And many more with the 90+ compatible F-mount Lenses.



Jul 05, 2023 at 09:22 AM
Mister-Mr
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p.59 #20 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


I've read than some believe that Nikon should NOT have released the Z6 or 7 or did so too early in their development.

Yet, also consider what the costs may have been if they have not released those and waited 3 more years to release a 'better' ILMC (Z9).

Early movers (Sony) can gain significant traction and market share, though, over time, the tortoises can and sometimes do, win the race.




Jul 05, 2023 at 09:53 AM
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