p.60 #5 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
1bwana1 wrote:
Nikon is in good shape if you want long primes for birds and wildlife. Nikon has only one competative camera that is offered in two form factors. The rest of its offerings are one or two generations behind. Relying on the sales of its one model it has risen for the first time In years out of 5th place in mirrorless to a weak 3rd at only 12% market share. That will not sustain unless it can propagate its success with the Z8/9 accross its offerings. Nikon is showing signs of recovery and competativeness. But still has a ways to go....Show more →
Agree but this is nothing new, this was the position Nikon put themselves in years ago and it wasn't going to be an overnight fix. What is relevant today is whether or not Nikon is consistently closing the gap year over year and I think they are. You can criticize the Z6 and Z7 but Nikon got a lot right with those cameras and they are building on that foundation. With the Z9 and Z8 success, Nikon just needs to do a few things right with the next few cameras and they will be ok. What is maybe more important is for Nikon to keep making significant strides with more Z lenses.
p.60 #6 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
RoamingScott wrote:
You should repost here, you'd get more traction with a thread about it
I used to do parallel posts between Dpreview and FM but the differences in forum software made reformatting posts a real time sink. I figure if there's interest they'll read the link and post back here if there are any comments or questions.
p.60 #7 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
snapsy wrote:
I used to do parallel posts between Dpreview and FM but the differences in forum software made reformatting posts a real time sink. I figure if there's interest they'll read the link and post back here if there are any comments or questions.
I just meant it'll get more traction vs being buried in a thread that has devolved into squabbling about Nikon's financial situation
p.60 #8 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
RobCD wrote:
Agree but this is nothing new, this was the position Nikon put themselves in years ago and it wasn't going to be an overnight fix. What is relevant today is whether or not Nikon is consistently closing the gap year over year and I think they are. You can criticize the Z6 and Z7 but Nikon got a lot right with those cameras and they are building on that foundation. With the Z9 and Z8 success, Nikon just needs to do a few things right with the next few cameras and they will be ok. What is maybe more important is for Nikon to keep making significant strides with more Z lenses. ...Show more →
We agree on pretty much everything. The initial release of the Z6/7 cameras was disappointing on many levels. I feel that the worst photographic purchase I ever made was the pre-release order for the Z7. The current versions are actually pretty good cameras. But, they remain a generation or two behind the competition on a number of levels. I expect that the gen III versions will be very competitive just as the Z8/9 cameras are.
Like you, I believe Nikon will be in great shape in the long run. The Nikon Z lens lineup is top rate, I could build a system I would be very happy with from the current offerings. This will only get better as Nikon continues to fill out the line.
Yes, Nikon is making great strides in their recovery effort. They are still playing catch up in a number of key areas. It will be interesting to see how much market share Nikon can recover. This will not come from the Z8/9 line. It must come from the core down line offerings where the volume potential really is.
p.60 #9 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
I disagree that the Z6/Z7 cameras were any form of disaster. They served and continue to serve many if not the majority of users well. In looking at the A7 line when they came out, granted a few years earlier than Nikon to be fair, I don't think Nikon would have chosen to put that quality level camera in the market. The handling of those early cameras was awful, the viewfinder chased many back to their DSLRs, and the menus were far from ideal.
I wont speculate on the strategy or subterfuge of it all, but I feel Nikon's first offerings to be far better than the Sony ones, given the advantage of time of course. Nikon got the free look at everything they didn't like about Sony, and did not repeat the mistakes.
Of course, Nikon has rarely been first to market with anything, they have always taken a "be patient and release a good product" approach, something that did not help their market share with the perfect storm of events. They may be back to number three, but by most accounts they are darn profitable. They will be around.
If I had to start from scratch I am not sure what I would choose. But Nikon should be in the running for anyone looking at the three major FF systems.
p.60 #10 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Is there anyone who used to own Sony A1 now own Z8? Is the AF comparable? I'm curious about success rate and interface between them. Is 3D with subject recognition (birds/animals) is the best option to get most success in BIF kind of scenario? Do we have to press additional button to turn on tracking? (I kind of remember Z6ii/Z7ii had something like this)
I'm also curious about the human EYE focusing. Does it always find and focus in eye perfectly? Z5 misses focus sometimes even if it finds eye (at least viewfinder shows the yellow box on the eye).
I asked this question in a different way earlier, but didn't get a perfect answer. Most youtube reviewers are biased towards a brand. If anyone can point to a great review (Z8 or Z9 AF) that'd be great too.
p.60 #11 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Jemini wrote:
Is there anyone who used to own Sony A1 now own Z8? Is the AF comparable? I'm curious about success rate and interface between them. Is 3D with subject recognition (birds/animals) is the best option to get most success in BIF kind of scenario? Do we have to press additional button to turn on tracking? (I kind of remember Z6ii/Z7ii had something like this)
I'm also curious about the human EYE focusing. Does it always find and focus in eye perfectly? Z5 misses focus sometimes even if it finds eye (at least viewfinder shows the yellow box on the eye).
I asked this question in a different way earlier, but didn't get a perfect answer. Most youtube reviewers are biased towards a brand. If anyone can point to a great review (Z8 or Z9 AF) that'd be great too.
I own A1 and I've owned Z9 twice. Once on early release FW and once on FW 3.1. I still prefer the AF of the A1 over the Z9. Many call it a wash, some may like the Z9 better. To me the A1 still has significant advantages in AF and how the AF/Tracking modes work together compared to Nikon's setup. I can get the shots with either camera but I find the A1 to be easier to do so.
I don't feel 3D is the best mode on Z9(Z8). The general consensus is that Wide Area modes (which you can have two custom sized ones plus the regular Small and Large) are the most effective for BIF. Sometimes you need to start focusing with a Wide Area and then "handoff" to either 3D or AutoAF to allow tracking over the entire sensor. I found that handing off to Auto was more effective than handing off to 3D but it seems most people I read are handing off to 3D. Go figure.
You don't have to do the clunky Tracking workflow present in the Z6/7 etc. The Z9/Z8 will have tracking on if you've set it on from the menus. Most of the time people just leave it on. But sometimes it gets in the way and so people have programmed a custom button to turn it off...unfortunately you have to waste your one and only Custom button Recall set to have this work unless you want to go into the menus to turn it off and on.
I don't know about human eye af as I only used Z9 on birds.
p.60 #12 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Thanks for the response Geoff. Looks like Z series not ready to 'bring back' old Nikon users.
Yeah, I remember reading about that handoff process. Is it easy to do so? I kind of do that with A1. I start with single point using shutter button. But in general A1 finds the bird eye even with single point, My back Af-On button is programmed to Wide/Tracking. That way if the bird take off I can easily track it within entire frame
I know Nikon's wide area doesn't cover the entire frame. How easy is the 'hand off' process? Can I use AF-On button to do this? I mean shutter button programmed to do wide area and AF-On button to do 3D/Auto?
Also does the single point work like Sony's does? Once the subject in focus and we half press shutter, does the focus point stick to the subject with reframing?
I won't jump before trying it myself. I'm very interested in the 800 PF. I want to get 600/4 but it's too much money at this point.
arbitrage wrote:
I own A1 and I've owned Z9 twice. Once on early release FW and once on FW 3.1. I still prefer the AF of the A1 over the Z9. Many call it a wash, some may like the Z9 better. To me the A1 still has significant advantages in AF and how the AF/Tracking modes work together compared to Nikon's setup. I can get the shots with either camera but I find the A1 to be easier to do so.
I don't feel 3D is the best mode on Z9(Z8). The general consensus is that Wide Area modes (which you can have two custom sized ones plus the regular Small and Large) are the most effective for BIF. Sometimes you need to start focusing with a Wide Area and then "handoff" to either 3D or AutoAF to allow tracking over the entire sensor. I found that handing off to Auto was more effective than handing off to 3D but it seems most people I read are handing off to 3D. Go figure.
You don't have to do the clunky Tracking workflow present in the Z6/7 etc. The Z9/Z8 will have tracking on if you've set it on from the menus. Most of the time people just leave it on. But sometimes it gets in the way and so people have programmed a custom button to turn it off...unfortunately you have to waste your one and only Custom button Recall set to have this work unless you want to go into the menus to turn it off and on.
I don't know about human eye af as I only used Z9 on birds....Show more →
p.60 #13 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Max Power wrote:
I disagree that the Z6/Z7 cameras were any form of disaster. They served and continue to serve many if not the majority of users well. In looking at the A7 line when they came out, granted a few years earlier than Nikon to be fair, I don't think Nikon would have chosen to put that quality level camera in the market. The handling of those early cameras was awful, the viewfinder chased many back to their DSLRs, and the menus were far from ideal.
I wont speculate on the strategy or subterfuge of it all, but I feel Nikon's first offerings to be far better than the Sony ones, given the advantage of time of course. Nikon got the free look at everything they didn't like about Sony, and did not repeat the mistakes.
Of course, Nikon has rarely been first to market with anything, they have always taken a "be patient and release a good product" approach, something that did not help their market share with the perfect storm of events. They may be back to number three, but by most accounts they are darn profitable. They will be around.
If I had to start from scratch I am not sure what I would choose. But Nikon should be in the running for anyone looking at the three major FF systems. ...Show more →
You forget that it was the poor performance, deficient specifications, and high price that set off the negative view of Nikon mirrorless in the press and industry. This criticism was well deserved. In regard to these two models, although the original issues have largely been addressed, that negativity persists to this day among many. The Z6/7 cameras damaged Nikon's reputation for good reason, and underperformed in sales as a result. This contributed to the huge fall in Nikon market share and financial problems. You may choose a different word than disaster to describe that if you like.
I never shot the early Sony mirrorless cameras because I felt the Nikon DSLRs were much better. But at release of the Z6/7 cameras the competing Sony cameras were far better. That was the environment that the Z6/7 cameras had to compete in, and they were sorely lacking.
p.60 #14 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Jemini wrote:
Thanks for the response Geoff. Looks like Z series not ready to 'bring back' old Nikon users.
Yeah, I remember reading about that handoff process. Is it easy to do so? I kind of do that with A1. I start with single point using shutter button. But in general A1 finds the bird eye even with single point, My back Af-On button is programmed to Wide/Tracking. That way if the bird take off I can easily track it within entire frame
I know Nikon's wide area doesn't cover the entire frame. How easy is the 'hand off' process? Can I use AF-On button to do this? I mean shutter button programmed to do wide area and AF-On button to do 3D/Auto?
Also does the single point work like Sony's does? Once the subject in focus and we half press shutter, does the focus point stick to the subject with reframing?
I won't jump before trying it myself. I'm very interested in the 800 PF. I want to get 600/4 but it's too much money at this point.
The handoff process is easy enough. If you are a shutter button AF guy then you have say Wide Area Large on the shutter and programs AF-ON to be 3D or Auto. Then it is just like Sony, holding in the AF-ON will override the shutter AF setting.
When I mentioned preferring the A1's AF methods it is because of what you describe. We can use all the AF modes in non-tracking and tracking and like you do I also have the button to instantly change my regular (non-tracking) modes from the shutter button into Tracking.
Nikon doesn't work this way. The only mode that you can aim a single (relatively small) AF point at a subject and have it track all over the frame is 3D. Auto will track over the frame but is like Sony Wide where it makes the decision of what to focus on and track.
The Wide Area modes will allow subject detect but will only track as far as some of the subject is still touching the boundary of the given Wide Area box size.
Nikon's single point mode doesn't do subject detect. You can make a Custom Wide Area down to a 1x1 square to have subject detect work but then to track anywhere you need to handoff to 3D or Auto.
I made a bit of an error in my reply above when I said people were using the recall button to turn off tracking. It isn't tracking they are turning off it is just subject (eye) detect. That is different than what you were asking. You don't really turn tracking on and off on the Z9. You just use 3D or Auto if you want full sensor tracking, Wide Area for more limited area tracking and Single or Dynamic have no tracking feature. All you can turn off and on is subject/eye detect so if you turn that off then 3D will just track the object and not look for subjects/eyes. Wide area would just dance the red squares over the nearest object like Sony Zone without tracking would do.
As far as the Z cameras being ready to bring back the Nikon DSLR users, I think it is ready to and the lenses for birds/wildlife are enough to do it for most even if the cameras may not be as good in all areas as the competition.
The lenses brought back Steve Perry and Steve Mattheis from shooting some hybrid Sony/Nikon combo to using Nikon all the time now. Z9 AF was up to par or "good enough" to make it worth ditching the Sony gear and concentrating on just one system with the new TC lenses.
p.60 #15 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
1bwana1 wrote:
You forget that it was the poor performance, deficient specifications, and high price that set off the negative view of Nikon mirrorless in the press and industry. This criticism was well deserved. In regard to these two models, although the original issues have largely been addressed, that negativity persists to this day among many. The Z6/7 cameras damaged Nikon's reputation for good reason, and underperformed in sales as a result. This contributed to the huge fall in Nikon market share and financial problems. You may choose a different word than disaster to describe that if you like.
I never shot the early Sony mirrorless cameras because I felt the Nikon DSLRs were much better. But at release of the Z6/7 cameras the competing Sony cameras were far better. That was the environment that the Z6/7 cameras had to compete in, and they were sorely lacking....Show more →
I remember looking at Sony very seriously before I decided on the Z6, I was already invested in Nikon and had a lot of F mount lenses I felt I would use with the FTZ adapter, I was not thrilled with the idea of having to completely jump to a new system even though I knew the performance was better (going to Sony), I briefly looked at Canon and felt they were a step behind and so I decided to go with the Z6 and was very happy, especially with each new firmware update, they kept adding more and more which surprised me and I loved the S lenses and how well they performed. Granted I wasn't doing BIF or anything like that but for people and the occasional action the Z6 handled it very well. Then Z6 II came out and I was surprised that Nikon continued upgrading fw in the old Z6, that solidified my choice with staying with Nikon even if it wasn't quite up to par with the rest of the pack. I decided to be an early adopter with the Z8 knowing Nikon will be supporting this body for a long time coming, even after a Z8 II is released, and Nikon has grown their Z lens options exponentially with some very unique options not available anywhere else further solidifying their investment in the mirrorless world.
p.60 #16 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Would your view of the Z9 change with the latest firmware update? Just curious since I am considering it. Thanks.
arbitrage wrote:
The handoff process is easy enough. If you are a shutter button AF guy then you have say Wide Area Large on the shutter and programs AF-ON to be 3D or Auto. Then it is just like Sony, holding in the AF-ON will override the shutter AF setting.
When I mentioned preferring the A1's AF methods it is because of what you describe. We can use all the AF modes in non-tracking and tracking and like you do I also have the button to instantly change my regular (non-tracking) modes from the shutter button into Tracking.
Nikon doesn't work this way. The only mode that you can aim a single (relatively small) AF point at a subject and have it track all over the frame is 3D. Auto will track over the frame but is like Sony Wide where it makes the decision of what to focus on and track.
The Wide Area modes will allow subject detect but will only track as far as some of the subject is still touching the boundary of the given Wide Area box size.
Nikon's single point mode doesn't do subject detect. You can make a Custom Wide Area down to a 1x1 square to have subject detect work but then to track anywhere you need to handoff to 3D or Auto.
I made a bit of an error in my reply above when I said people were using the recall button to turn off tracking. It isn't tracking they are turning off it is just subject (eye) detect. That is different than what you were asking. You don't really turn tracking on and off on the Z9. You just use 3D or Auto if you want full sensor tracking, Wide Area for more limited area tracking and Single or Dynamic have no tracking feature. All you can turn off and on is subject/eye detect so if you turn that off then 3D will just track the object and not look for subjects/eyes. Wide area would just dance the red squares over the nearest object like Sony Zone without tracking would do.
As far as the Z cameras being ready to bring back the Nikon DSLR users, I think it is ready to and the lenses for birds/wildlife are enough to do it for most even if the cameras may not be as good in all areas as the competition.
The lenses brought back Steve Perry and Steve Mattheis from shooting some hybrid Sony/Nikon combo to using Nikon all the time now. Z9 AF was up to par or "good enough" to make it worth ditching the Sony gear and concentrating on just one system with the new TC lenses....Show more →
p.60 #17 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
FrankA373 wrote:
Would your view of the Z9 change with the latest firmware update? Just curious since I am considering it. Thanks.
I wouldn't know unless I tried. But I'm not planning to try again. I repurchased with FW 3.1 as I'd read there were so many improvements and things were so much better. I didn't find the AF improvements to be significant enough to solve my concerns. Auto and 3D were still not great. It was nice to have C1/C2 Wide Area. There were other button customization tweaks that were nice improvements.
p.60 #18 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
To me these discussions are like talking to a friend as to why he prefers blonds and I prefer brunettes. The focus performance of a A1 as opposed to a ver. 4.0 firmware equipped Nikon Z9, with the qualifying factor that the person using the Z9 knows and understands how to properly use its tools to achieve the end result will end up proving that the Z9 is completely every bit as capable of locking onto and tracking a given subject as any A1. I sold a A7RV to get my current Z9 and am already finding this to be the case. The irony is if one came to me the first week, I had the Z9 and asked me that question I might have hedged. But after nailing down the understanding of what I was after and how the tools provided on the Z9 would get me there, I'm more convinced then ever the Z9 is currently the KING of overall wildlife and bird photography as a tool. There have been some recent Youtubes by some well-known birders that while starting out frustrated, came to know the Z9/Z8 and how to master its tools given and changed their minds about it feeling it was THE finest tool for them. So anyone can come into any forum and spout off about how Canon or Sony are still leaders and (like the dumbass Fro) saying Nikon is getting close but not there yet, have simply either NOT mastered its use or have ver. 4.0 firmware loaded. I'm brand agnostic having owned them ALL. So I'll just leave it there.
p.60 #19 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
I hope to be able to test my friend's Z8 soon. Although it is her new toy for now so I'll wait a little bit before asking. I assume Z8 is similar to Z9 4.0 as far as AF goes. Obviously no AutoCapture. Maybe after Z8 gets the AutoCapture feature I can safely assume testing a Z8 will be the same as Z9 4.0.
I'm not expecting Z9 4.0 to make any significant difference because the things I've read it improves are not addressing my concerns.
p.60 #20 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
dcisive wrote:
To me these discussions are like talking to a friend as to why he prefers blonds and I prefer brunettes. The focus performance of a A1 as opposed to a ver. 4.0 firmware equipped Nikon Z9, with the qualifying factor that the person using the Z9 knows and understands how to properly use its tools to achieve the end result will end up proving that the Z9 is completely every bit as capable of locking onto and tracking a given subject as any A1. I sold a A7RV to get my current Z9 and am already finding this to be the case. The irony is if one came to me the first week, I had the Z9 and asked me that question I might have hedged. But after nailing down the understanding of what I was after and how the tools provided on the Z9 would get me there, I'm more convinced then ever the Z9 is currently the KING of overall wildlife and bird photography as a tool. There have been some recent Youtubes by some well-known birders that while starting out frustrated, came to know the Z9/Z8 and how to master its tools given and changed their minds about it feeling it was THE finest tool for them. So anyone can come into any forum and spout off about how Canon or Sony are still leaders and (like the dumbass Fro) saying Nikon is getting close but not there yet, have simply either NOT mastered its use or have ver. 4.0 firmware loaded. I'm brand agnostic having owned them ALL. So I'll just leave it there. ...Show more →
I wonder who made this comment just 3 short months ago....man things must have changed....
"I never used a A1 before. I did have a Canon R5 for a year and a half and after their last firmware update it was tenacious as heck and tracked quite well. I also had a OM-1 which for non humans tracked superbly well (not so much on people). Now with the A7RV I'm using it is virtually instant to lock onto a face or eye of an animal OR human. It doesn't seem to lose it no matter how the subject moves, which is all I could ask for. I doubt the A1 would do any better. I don't burst shoot so for me it's an ideal answer to nailing a subject without the plethora of shots to mill through. They are always in focus so what do I care."
You seem to really fall hard for whatever is the latest gear you've purchased. I'd really try to take a step back and try to have a more balanced outlook. You blindly say the A1 would never be able to out do the A7RV because the A7RV was perfect. Yet you've never touched one. Now it seems like the Z9 is perfect but how could it be more perfect than a camera you said just 3 months ago "doesn't seem to lose it no matter how the subject moves".
I get it....maybe your wife is stalking you on here and you need to post this stuff to justify why you just spent some big $$$ to buy yet another perfect camera to replace your previous perfect camera.
Or maybe more likely you are just trying to justify it to yourself. Either way....lose the hyperbole because none of it helps give credit to any future opinions you post.
