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Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!

  
 
1bwana1
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p.31 #1 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


RoamingScott wrote:
Jesus Christ, you guys are STILL talking about “workflow”?


In the name of Buda yes! Because differences there are real, and they exist in a meaningful way. Workflow is on the path to discovering the meaning of life.



May 29, 2023 at 09:27 AM
CanadaMark
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p.31 #2 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


RoamingScott wrote:
Jesus Christ, you guys are STILL talking about “workflow”?


It's the first time I've replied specifically to the workflow comment I think, I just got tired of reading about these "issues" as if it's some sort of reality Nikon shooters have to live with. I now see your point that it was a waste of time, but maybe it will help balance out some of the negativity around here with a different perspective from someone who actually owns the camera. The term "workflow" doesn't even make sense from a shooting perspective, at least to me - I've always considered that more of a post processing thing. My Z9 "workflow" is aim and press the shutter button



May 29, 2023 at 10:37 AM
tabishshaikh
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p.31 #3 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Got my Z8 today. My observations so far

1. Its quite close to my D850 in terms of feel.
2. Pain to set the shooting banks, no way to copy bank A to bank B. Not sure if I am missing something?
3. Really good at picking humans in AF in low light
4. Don't like the shutter sound, its too electronic and squeaky
5. Using my 14-30 F4S lens, every time I try use menu or view pic - the focus motor on the lens moves. Not sure if this happens for other lens too.

Hope to use it in the field soon.



May 29, 2023 at 12:04 PM
arbitrage
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p.31 #4 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


duncang wrote:
It seems hard to believe that anyone with any brand of mirrorless camera has not experienced, in some form or another, the same issue Jan had - given that neither the Canon or Sony cameras are totally immune to that problem either - this simply doesn't sound plausible.


I'd have to agree with this. I just don't see how anyone shooting any MILC can say they haven't experienced that issue Jan shows in the video with the Osprey over water. I've seen it on every camera no matter Z9, R5, R3, A9 or A1. Solutions to overcome it in the moment or mitigate it from happening as often vary from camera to camera. But like you, I just can't fathom how someone hasn't experienced this especially with the Z9 as it is the worst offender of all the cameras I listed.

Of course I haven't put in 10,000hrs with any of those cameras so I probably don't know how to use any of them well enough.



May 29, 2023 at 12:07 PM
George DeCamp
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p.31 #5 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


duncang wrote:
It seems hard to believe that anyone with any brand of mirrorless camera has not experienced, in some form or another, the same issue Jan had - given that neither the Canon or Sony cameras are totally immune to that problem either - this simply doesn't sound plausible.

I could understand it if you said that you used to have those problems when you started out using mirrorless or even with the earlier versions of the Z9 firmware when the problem was particularly bad, but that you have now largely figured out how to avoid them. But to say you
...Show more

Yes I agree as well. You do find work arounds though when it happens. I always have a recall focus point set on my lens and as soon as it is not able to focus and appears stuck I hit that and it racks back and then I press the shutter (or whatever) and the focus usually kicks in. All cameras need workarounds and always did, in my opinion anyway! The trick is to find them and remember to use them!



May 29, 2023 at 12:20 PM
tobycat2
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p.31 #6 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




tabishshaikh wrote:
Got my Z8 today. My observations so far

1. Its quite close to my D850 in terms of feel.
2. Pain to set the shooting banks, no way to copy bank A to bank B. Not sure if I am missing something?
3. Really good at picking humans in AF in low light
4. Don't like the shutter sound, its too electronic and squeaky
5. Using my 14-30 F4S lens, every time I try use menu or view pic - the focus motor on the lens moves. Not sure if this happens for other lens too.

Hope to use it in the field soon.


I wish my OM-1 made a sound when shooting in ES more. I have no way of knowing if it took a pic. So I usually mash the shutter and get way more photos than I want haha.



May 29, 2023 at 12:22 PM
RoamingScott
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p.31 #7 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Z8 and Z9 are getting custom shutter sounds soon. Can’t wait to upload an erotic moan into mine


May 29, 2023 at 12:24 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.31 #8 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


arbitrage wrote:
I'd have to agree with this. I just don't see how anyone shooting any MILC can say they haven't experienced that issue Jan shows in the video with the Osprey over water. I've seen it on every camera no matter Z9, R5, R3, A9 or A1. Solutions to overcome it in the moment or mitigate it from happening as often vary from camera to camera. But like you, I just can't fathom how someone hasn't experienced this especially with the Z9 as it is the worst offender of all the cameras I listed.

Of course I haven't put in 10,000hrs with
...Show more

I think the ultimate and perhaps common work around is not to shoot in conditions when it occurs. That may be all that he is doing. I really don't see the point in challenging someone else's experience. Trying to understand it is one thing. Saying you don't believe it is pointless. It seems to me asking questions to understand it if you are perplexed makes sense, but if you simply don't believe him then that might be best kept to one self.



May 29, 2023 at 12:32 PM
CanadaMark
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p.31 #9 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


duncang wrote:
It seems hard to believe that anyone with any brand of mirrorless camera has not experienced, in some form or another, the same issue Jan had - given that neither the Canon or Sony cameras are totally immune to that problem either - this simply doesn't sound plausible.



To clarify, as I see how my comment may have been confusing to some - I have never experienced ridiculously long periods of the AF failing to grab the subject, like in Jan's video. I have of course experienced brief moments where the AF takes a second to "wake up" or acquire the target (as with every MILC I have ever used to varying degrees), but Jan's video shows a ~15 second sequence where the AF isn't grabbing the bird and no, I can honestly say I have never experienced anything that extreme in similar shooting conditions. I can't say it will never happen, only that I haven't seen it yet. In that situation, a quick twist of the MF ring to help bring the AF closer would have very likely corrected the issue right away rather than wasting shots for 10+ seconds - as far as I can tell in his video he did not try that either. He was also switching between 3 different AF modes rapidly during that sequence and that was only making things worse as he had his single point AF all over the place, often on the waves. If for whatever reason the camera was confusing the bird for waves, simply switching the camera to closest subject priority would likely have also solved his problem, especially for slow birds with a predictable flight path like that. FW 3.X seems a bit snappier and more confident overall compared to 1.X but I haven't noticed dramatic night & day differences in terms of subject acquisition, at least in the conditions I shoot in which is all I can speak to.



May 29, 2023 at 12:55 PM
JustShootMe
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p.31 #10 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


tobycat2 wrote:
I wish my OM-1 made a sound when shooting in ES more. I have no way of knowing if it took a pic. So I usually mash the shutter and get way more photos than I want haha.


I set the z8 to dim the screen as shots were being taken , trying to not shoot a billion shots every outing. I’m getting better as I learn to trust the camera.



May 29, 2023 at 12:58 PM
 


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sum1sgrampa
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p.31 #11 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


CanadaMark wrote:
To clarify, as I see how my comment may have been confusing to some - I have never experienced ridiculously long periods of the AF failing to grab the subject, like in Jan's video. I have of course experienced brief moments where the AF takes a second to "wake up" or acquire the target (as with every MILC I have ever used to varying degrees), but Jan's video shows a ~15 second sequence where the AF isn't grabbing the bird and no, I can honestly say I have never experienced anything that extreme in similar shooting conditions. I can't say
...Show more

That video mirrors the "issue" that some users here have brought up and also what I've seen in other reviewer's videos. In all those instances the photographer is attempting to grab focus on an erratic subject that is very small in the frame. Too small in my opinion. Jan's point is not really relevant in real world situations. Unless of course you're attempting to shoot a bird that takes up such a ridiculously small part of the frame. Which is kinda pointless as far as I'm concerned. I'm assuming he made no attempt to simply twist the MF ring to give the camera a bit of help in order to show how long the body struggled. Again, not a real world situation. These aren't point and shoots. I've got no problem with a bit of user input.
Gary



May 29, 2023 at 01:14 PM
dcisive
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p.31 #12 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


The way I interpret Jan's video was while he initially had issues with losing a bird when near brush or water, when he got smart and adjusted to a Custom box that was smaller and rectangular, it eliminated his issue altogether which he also was very clear about, stating it was the best performance he'd seen to date. So he learned that the Z8 (like the Z9) was not designed to be an "auto pilot" mentality when shooting, but rather giving the user the full flexibility to dial it in for each specific shooting scenario. Professionals tend to want that, and that is the audience Nikon has sought all these years. And they are nailing it. Canon and Sony are for autopilot folks. I have an A7RV currently awaiting a Z8 and while missing focus is NOT my issue with the Sony due to it's advanced AI tech, there are other aspects of the Z8 I am very curious to experience.


May 29, 2023 at 01:30 PM
ahamp
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p.31 #13 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


RoamingScott wrote:
Z8 and Z9 are getting custom shutter sounds soon. Can’t wait to upload an erotic moan into mine


I want one that utters an obscenity for the shot I missed.



May 29, 2023 at 01:32 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.31 #14 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


sum1sgrampa wrote:
That video mirrors the "issue" that some users here have brought up and also what I've seen in other reviewer's videos. In all those instances the photographer is attempting to grab focus on an erratic subject that is very small in the frame. Too small in my opinion. Jan's point is not really relevant in real world situations. Unless of course you're attempting to shoot a bird that takes up such a ridiculously small part of the frame. Which is kinda pointless as far as I'm concerned. I'm assuming he made no attempt to simply twist the MF ring to
...Show more

Totally agree and this was my point, why would you even try to use AF when the subject is so small in the frame? It will never be that great of a shot and you learn to use AF when it will work well and that seems to be for many many situations with modern MILC cameras and all the modern MILC do well in real world conditions where the subject is the reasonably large in the frame.



May 29, 2023 at 02:33 PM
CanadaMark
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p.31 #15 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


sum1sgrampa wrote:
That video mirrors the "issue" that some users here have brought up and also what I've seen in other reviewer's videos. In all those instances the photographer is attempting to grab focus on an erratic subject that is very small in the frame. Too small in my opinion. Jan's point is not really relevant in real world situations. Unless of course you're attempting to shoot a bird that takes up such a ridiculously small part of the frame. Which is kinda pointless as far as I'm concerned. I'm assuming he made no attempt to simply twist the MF ring to
...Show more

All fair points. In the scene where he was struggling, you'd probably be cropping down to 2-4 MP to get decent framing, and at that point, it's questionable whether it was a worthwhile photo to chase in the first place.

I watched that sequence again frame by frame, and he changed the AF mode 18 times in a 13 second period, 5 of which which were single point "dumb" AF mode over-rides pointed at the water. Completely unnecessary. To me, that either speaks to his lack of experience with the camera, or he was intentionally trying to make the situation as bad as possible for the purposes of his video so he could come up with a "fix" or something like that.

I'll try remember to post some screen shots later from NX Studio which will show the AF point, but I've been pleasantly surprised at what the Z8/Z9 is able to identify either in a busy frame (i.e. within foliage or behind an obstruction), or at extreme distances. It's no miracle worker, but it's picking up more than I thought it would. A tiny bird against a similar color background is more of a challenge for any AF system though for sure, especially if there is harsh sun or specular highlights.



May 29, 2023 at 02:51 PM
1bwana1
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p.31 #16 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Steve Spencer wrote:
Totally agree and this was my point, why would you even try to use AF when the subject is so small in the frame? It will never be that great of a shot and you learn to use AF when it will work well and that seems to be for many many situations with modern MILC cameras and all the modern MILC do well in real world conditions where the subject is the reasonably large in the frame.


I think you guys may be misunderstand what Jan was demonstrating. He was not trying to take an image of a small object, far away, against a poor background. Of course no wants such an image. He is also operating from a point of reference of shooting other systems that may have less problems acquiring such subjects.

What he was attempting to do was acquire the subject while it was still small in the frame. In some systems that do lock on to small distance subjects far away, this makes tracking the subject in easier and more reliable. The sooner you lock on to a subject the better in my experience.

Jan wanted to track the subject in across multiple backgrounds while maintaining focus. Obviously it is better if the camera stays locked on the subject on the way in rather than getting ADD and focusing on backgrounds or other distractions It was Jan's opinion that the Z9 doesn't do this as well as some other systems, and gets distracted more easily. His experience from shooting multiple systems.

Jan wanted to keep the subject in focus across the entire sensor the entire time. It is easier to keep the subject in the focus frame when that frame covers the whole sensor. Having to shrink the focus area to acquire subjects far away, then switch the focus area to wide, and tracking mode to 3D on the way in is a heavier work load than some other systems require. Jan prefers to not do that.

Finally, when the subject is close enough, the background is attractive enough, and the pose is interesting enough, take a high quality, interesting image. The difference in Jan's opinion that the workload on the Z9 until this point was heavier than on some other systems.

There are many videos, discussions, and articles on how to configure the Z9 buttons to make these changes and hand offs easier, and faster. Once Jan had figured out how to do this he was able to solve for his needs (preferences) in getting this done. He is far from alone in this experience. Managed correctly however, the Z9 will get as many high quality images as the best other systems out there. This has been Steve Perry's, Thom Hogan's, Hudson Henry's and many other very experienced photographers experience as well.

Sure, you can just set the Z9 AF to wide, make other settings per preference, and the Z9 will work at a very high AF level. But it seems compared to other systems that the Z9 will have to wait for a larger/closer subject, and will have some level of proclivity to lose track and focus on other distractions. Pick your compromises, and shoot the way that works best for you.



May 29, 2023 at 03:05 PM
groob
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p.31 #17 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




sum1sgrampa wrote:
That video mirrors the "issue" that some users here have brought up and also what I've seen in other reviewer's videos. In all those instances the photographer is attempting to grab focus on an erratic subject that is very small in the frame. Too small in my opinion. Jan's point is not really relevant in real world situations. Unless of course you're attempting to shoot a bird that takes up such a ridiculously small part of the frame. Which is kinda pointless as far as I'm concerned. I'm assuming he made no attempt to simply twist the MF ring to
...Show more

I agree with you and Steve. I really couldn’t care less about tracking an osprey when it’s far out over the water and taking up a minuscule part of the frame. But I was a little disappointed to see that he had trouble tracking on initial takeoff. That’s often where you capture the most dynamic poses. The osprey dive looked like a difficult series to track, and Jan didn’t do a great job staying on the bird. That was pretty understandable. But the Z8 should’ve stayed on the ibis at takeoff. I do wonder whether those were more to do with close backgrounds appearing suddenly or a systemic issue in which Nikon has a little trouble with take-offs/instant and unpredictable changes in direction.

Practically speaking, though, I think these are tiny concerns when considering the overall system. I mean, my God, what a first world problem it is to complain that we might need to turn a dial or push a different button to change AF modes or create a slightly smaller AF box for different subjects in challenging circumstances instead of just relying on the camera to get it right automatically. Everyone is still so hyper-focused on the 1% of extremely challenging situations that it obscures the 99%. I am glad to know where the difference lie, but most of these discussions result in the exceptions swallowing the rule.



May 29, 2023 at 03:31 PM
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p.31 #18 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


1bwana1 wrote:
I think you guys may be misunderstand what Jan was demonstrating. He was not trying to take an image of a small object, far away, against a poor background. Of course no wants such an image. He is also operating from a point of reference of shooting other systems that may have less problems acquiring such subjects.

What he was attempting to do was acquire the subject while it was still small in the frame. In some systems that do lock on to small distance subjects far away, this makes tracking the subject in easier and more reliable. The sooner you
...Show more

I agree that tracking a bird from further away is always preferable, and Jan was likely trying to do just that. But I have never needed to track a bird that far away to attain focus as it gets closer. That was an extreme case, and even if another brand can track the bird in that circumstance a little better, I just don’t care. It won’t affect the photos I’m going to get. Now, Geoff is likely correct that it will make shooting a swallow easier, but they are in a class by themselves.

Edited on May 29, 2023 at 06:05 PM · View previous versions



May 29, 2023 at 03:39 PM
agrumpyoldsod
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p.31 #19 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Yes you can copy menu Bank A to menu Bank B --- please read the manual

The Z8/Z9 are designed for pros and those with prolevel needs, skills and attitudes - AND this includes using many many different set ups and menus.
Most average folk will not even bother to move out of Bank A Bank A. OK
Most sports, action, fashion, wedding, ..... shooters use them extensively.



May 29, 2023 at 03:39 PM
sum1sgrampa
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p.31 #20 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


1bwana1 wrote:
I think you guys may be misunderstand what Jan was demonstrating. He was not trying to take an image of a small object, far away, against a poor background. Of course no wants such an image. He is also operating from a point of reference of shooting other systems that may have less problems acquiring such subjects.

What he was attempting to do was acquire the subject while it was still small in the frame. In some systems that do lock on to small distance subjects far away, this makes tracking the subject in easier and more reliable. The sooner you
...Show more

I understand exactly what he was trying to do but he's simply setting up the system to fail. I'll stand by this, there's no reason to begin tracking a bird from that far away. So what would be the point of switching to a different AF mode for a photo you don't want to take ? I find myself in these situations constantly, Eagles, Osprey, Terns. Anyone who has been doing this for a while and is familiar with their equipment can gauge acceptable shooting distance. I watch to see if they are going to be approaching me. Then I lift the lens and usually manual focus to get an approximate distance dialed in. Or I prefocus on a tree, a log, sometimes even the water. Something that's not moving but is in that acceptable range. I don't bother tracking them until they get close to that border of acceptable distance. So his findings are pretty much irrelevant for my uses. Yours may be different. I've sat and watched from a distance many more birds fishing or interacting than I have photographed them.
This reminds me of so many other "issues" we see on these forums that come up from time to time. Flare, banding, you name it. Somebody works hard to create an unlikely situation that proves they've discovered a problem. That "problem" takes on a life of it's own and before you know it, the Z8/9 AF sucks. Rubbish.
Gary



May 29, 2023 at 04:07 PM
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