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Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
  
 
Jesse Evans
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p.20 #1 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


osv2 wrote:
no, that is wrong:

"Artificial intelligence is the overarching term that covers a wide variety of specific approaches and algorithms. Machine learning sits under that umbrella, but so do other major subfields, such as deep learning, robotics, expert systems, and natural language processing." https://cloud.google.com/learn/artificial-intelligence-vs-machine-learning

you still don't understand what ANI is, but that's par for the course out here.



I guess I’ll have to quit my job because I don’t know what I’m doing 😄

I did not say the field of AI is limited to deep learning, and I am uncertain why pasting the definition of the FIELD of artificial intelligence would have anything to do with what we are talking about. I used AI in the context of the systems that you use in, e.g. smartphones and cameras.

Let me repeat: nearly every AI system that you use or interact with was trained using deep learning. I did not say the field of AI is limited to deep learning, I used AI as in the system that an end user would use. Deep learning is a technique, and it is fundamental to the field and present in pretty much every end user consumable model.

Regardless, your assertion that Canon and Nikon are not using deep learning are categorically incorrect. Using any other method of training computer vision models is absurdly expensive and leads to poor quality results.


May 19, 2023 at 06:07 PM
osv2
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p.20 #2 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Jesse Evans wrote:
I guess I’ll have to quit my job because I don’t know what I’m doing 😄

i'm not gonna argue that, lol

Jesse Evans wrote:
I did not say the field of AI is limited to deep learning,

you did say that, when you falsely claimed that all ai requires deep learning, quoting you directly: "There is no AI in existence that was trained without deep learning."

so i had to point out that a.i. doesn't necessarily revolve around deep learning, which should have been obvious from the start, given that these cameras aren't capable of deep learning.

i don't recall ever mentioning smartphones, so i don't know where that came from.

Jesse Evans wrote:
Regardless, your assertion that Canon and Nikon are not using deep learning are categorically incorrect.

i never made that claim, or even inferred it.

i said that these cameras aren't using deep learning, which is correct, they don't learn anything.

get back to us when you figure out what ANI is...
May 19, 2023 at 06:29 PM
tobycat2
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p.20 #3 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




maverick777 wrote:
I'm a hobbyist that dabbles in various genres but mainly landscape, travel, astro, and bird photography and kids portraiture now that I have a child.

Easy benefits coming from a Z6 and having people around me with Z9's I'll say the following are benefits of the Z8:

  1. AF Tracking - HUGE upgrade from the Z6. Very beneficial for any type of action. So for me that will be with birds and with kids running around.
  2. HE* file format - This a something I'm really looking forward to and one the features I'm most excited about coming from the Z6. It looks like
  3. Bright EVF - This is a big benefit shooting outdoors in bright sunny conditions which impacts most of what I shoot whether landscape or action. The Z6 viewfinder is difficult to use in bright conditions.
  4. No blackout EVF - HUGE benefit for action and a massive upgrade over the slideshow of the Z6.
  5. Dual axis title screen - Very beneficial for low angle shots which I do a lot of in all genres of photography.
  6. Backlit buttons - Very useful in low light situations which affects all types of photography.
  7. Starlight mode - Very useful for astro. -9 EV AF is incredible.
  8. Warm display mode - Very useful for astro.
  9. USB PD - one feature from the Z6II/Z7II bodies I wanted, but not enough to upgrade.
  10. Dual USB-C ports - a unique feature to the Z8 and a welcome addition. Being able to use one USB-C for power and another for accessories will be very useful. I sometimes use my Z6 as a camera for Zoom. It's nice to be able to power the camera with one port and use the other one for streaming.
  11. Shooting recall function - Very useful feature.
  12. Voice memo - Useful for travel pics.
  13. Synchro VR - Usefulness TBD but nice to have. I'm getting the Z8 to use with the Z100-400 which works with synchro VR. We'll see if I notice any difference with the 0.5 extra stop of VR that Nikon claims.
  14. EN-EL15C battery - It's nice to share the same battery as the Z6 line because the Z8 will not replace my Z6. It's an addition to my bag. So it's nice to have both cameras share the same battery and charger especially when traveling.

The list is getting rather long so I'll leave it there. But needless to say for my styles of shooting the Z8 is a massive upgrade from the Z6. I fortunately have the budget for it so it's worth the premium over what the Z6III or Z7III will be in terms of price. Time is opportunity so I'd rather get the Z8 knowing it's more camera than I'll likely ever need and pay a premium to have it now (hopefully next week). The Z8 is truly a D850 for me in that it's a camera that will outlast my photographic needs and capabilities. I can focus on lens after this (hopefully a Z 500/600mm PF) and maybe pick up a second Z8 down the road when they're under $3K used or maybe Z7III instead depending on the difference in capabilities with an expected higher resolution sensor. But it's hard for me to imagine needing more the 45MP even for what I do with landscape. The largest prints I've made are 36"x24"....Show more →

I should really stop reading posts like these. It’d be nice to consolidate my kit, but the OM-1 does well for wildlife. I just tell myself the z8 is too big for what I am willing to carry (I didn’t mind the d750/d500 size I had but I’ve really grown to like the z6/om1 size).


May 19, 2023 at 08:17 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.20 #4 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


osv2 wrote:
i'm not gonna argue that, lol

you did say that, when you falsely claimed that all ai requires deep learning, quoting you directly: "There is no AI in existence that was trained without deep learning."

so i had to point out that a.i. doesn't necessarily revolve around deep learning, which should have been obvious from the start, given that these cameras aren't capable of deep learning.

i don't recall ever mentioning smartphones, so i don't know where that came from.

i never made that claim, or even inferred it.

i said that these cameras aren't using deep learning, which is correct, they don't learn anything.

get...Show more →

All I see is bad faith arguments from someone who doesn’t understand the topic.

I forgot to be meticulous, you said the Z9 is not using Deep Learning, then said Canon uses similar “marketing BS”.

osv2 wrote:
the z9 is not using deep learning, it's not capable of learning anything.


Wrong. The Z9 is using deep learning. Thanks for playing.


May 19, 2023 at 09:34 PM
osv2
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p.20 #5 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Jesse Evans wrote:
I forgot to be meticulous, you said the Z9 is not using Deep Learning

and you agreed with that:

Jesse Evans wrote:
Cameras do not do deep learning

then you disagreed with yourself:

Jesse Evans wrote:
Wrong. The Z9 is using deep learning.

and of course you still don't know what ANI is...
May 19, 2023 at 10:19 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.20 #6 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


osv2 wrote:
and you agreed with that:

then you disagreed with yourself:

and of course you still don't know what ANI is...


They don’t do deep learning, which is the term typically used for training models, they use deep learning models 😄 I’m very aware what ANI is, and I’m not sure why exactly you keep saying it.


May 19, 2023 at 11:28 PM
NissanPatrol
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p.20 #7 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Thread derailed into AI
May 20, 2023 at 12:26 AM
lukemeup
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p.20 #8 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


NissanPatrol wrote:
Thread derailed into AI



Nope - thread derailed by a Sony troll whose aggressive and condescending comments are a constant reminder it's not worth it to argue with idiots on the internet. This forum deserves better than this. Not many engage because 'hide me' list is a useful feature.


May 20, 2023 at 12:33 AM
duncang
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p.20 #9 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Jesse Evans wrote:
They don’t do deep learning, which is the term typically used for training models, they use deep learning models 😄 I’m very aware what ANI is, and I’m not sure why exactly you keep saying it.

I think you're wasting your time trying to explain it. I think this all started with me commenting that the A1, Z9 and yet to be available Z8 are all a generation behind in hardware already because they lack the dedicated neural engines that are included in the latest camera's released by Canon and Sony.

Clearly there are some folks who believe that AI means the ability to learn - well the camera's do have the ability to learn - just not by themselves. Their manufacturer does the 'learning' for them and they get it ( a smarter model) via a firmware update.

So when using the term "AI" in the context of modern camera's were are simply referring the the models being used by the camera to detect subjects and/or to determine focus. We're not trying to imply the camera is capable of 'learning' or improving the model by itself or with help from the user.
May 20, 2023 at 02:36 AM
NikonClio64
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p.20 #10 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


osv2 wrote:
no, you are wrong, the z8/z9 do NOT have deep learning capability, people have been posting false information that duncang and myself had to correct.

as i already proved, canon is also pimping the term "deep learning" just like nikon does, it's sales drivel for people who don't understand the technology.

i also proved that ANI *is* artificial intelligence, and that all of these cameras have it... that's not arguable but of course this being the nikon forum, nikon owners think that nikon is somehow superior to the other camera companies... it's a silly claim, sony for instance has been working on...Show more →

The AI software for autofocus is trained on supercomputers and locked down once trained and uploaded into the camera. (Presumably, Nikon has been training its cameras in a similar way for decades to recognize and respond to specific exposure scenes.) As I recall Nikon's Marketing states the Z9 is using deep-learning technology, which is not wrong as it does not state the camera itself is learning.

In the case of the Z9, this AI software is structured to identify and classify objects into categories, and then it can refine its pattern recognition more tightly, according to nested size rules: i.e. Overall Object is 1 of 9 categories > head(or helmet, or cockpit) > eyes (or headlamps) etc.

So Nikon is using a hierarchical Subject Recognition strategy. Its performance is impressive, particularly as it empowers the Merry Nikonian to shut out categories and narrow the trained AI algorithms to search for only People or Animals, for example.

The new Z8 splits off yet another distinct Category in its Autofocus, which can be selected for the camera AF to prioritize: Aircraft

Clearly, you cannot understand what's written in elementary English in the articles I cited - and so struggle; or you choose to ignore these and other repeated explanations posted by members of this forum who understand straightforward logic. It follows you are a troll, whose condition is all too common:

Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken, 1917

*Sonyfanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy with other equipment. Roger Cicala, 2018



Edited on May 21, 2023 at 04:16 AM · View previous versions
May 20, 2023 at 03:29 AM
 


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DanielJStein
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p.20 #11 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




FrankA373 wrote:
Is there a preferred lens for milky way photos?


It depends on how you want to shoot it. I think the 50 1.8 S is the best in the business, but if you want a wider field of view you would need to pano. I love doing so as you can get more detail, but some may prefer to shoot it all in a single shot. For that there is the 14-24 2.8 S and 20 1.8 S.
May 20, 2023 at 05:54 AM
NissanPatrol
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p.20 #12 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


DanielJStein wrote:
It depends on how you want to shoot it. I think the 50 1.8 S is the best in the business, but if you want a wider field of view you would need to pano. I love doing so as you can get more detail, but some may prefer to shoot it all in a single shot. For that there is the 14-24 2.8 S and 20 1.8 S.

I was able to photograph the green comet with the 50 mm 1.2 lens. I was not able to see the comet with my eyes or even with the telescope. I decided to point at where the comet should be and after little cropping, I was able to see it in the image.

The faster the glass the better
May 20, 2023 at 07:45 AM
wjmeyer
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p.20 #13 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


maverick777 wrote:
This video may help explain shooting recall functions. It's a little complicated to explain how it works.



Synchro VR is an extra level of VR that only works with the Z8 and Z9 that gives it an extra 0.5 stops of VR with certain lenses. It's not that the Z6/Z7 doesn't work with the VR. It's that that Z8/Z9 works even better by coordinating the camera IBIS with the lens VR better.

Appreciate the video, that was helpful in explaining the feature and would be something I would definitely use especially with the Z8 not having the U1/U2/U3 settings like the Z6/Z7, oddly enough it took me a couple years before I even used those features - I largely ignored them as I was so used to changing all the settings myself for the different situations.

Synchro VR sounds like just a more refined VR which is nice to see Nikon looking to improve in that area when they already have a very impressive system. Thanks again.
May 20, 2023 at 08:46 AM
RoamingScott
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p.20 #14 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


wjmeyer wrote:
Appreciate the video, that was helpful in explaining the feature and would be something I would definitely use especially with the Z8 not having the U1/U2/U3 settings like the Z6/Z7, oddly enough it took me a couple years before I even used those features - I largely ignored them as I was so used to changing all the settings myself for the different situations.

Synchro VR sounds like just a more refined VR which is nice to see Nikon looking to improve in that area when they already have a very impressive system. Thanks again.

Z8/Z9 have 4 "banks" which are like U1-U3, so even MORE options for you.
May 20, 2023 at 08:46 AM
osv2
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p.20 #15 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


duncang wrote:
So when using the term "AI" in the context of modern camera's were are simply referring the the models being used by the camera to detect subjects and/or to determine focus. We're not trying to imply the camera is capable of 'learning' or improving the model by itself or with help from the user.

we aren't trying to imply that, but some nikon owners are falsely claiming it's a fact, while trying to troll you in the process, lol:

lukemeup:
Z9 is using deep learning which is an evolution of machine learning. Time to move on indeed (back to your Sony forum).

the thread went wrong before that, with this failed claim by a nikon owner:

JustShootMe wrote:
There is no AI in cameras (Yet)

these cameras use ANI, which as i already proved is a form of a.i.

Jesse Evans wrote:
I’m very aware what ANI is, and I’m not sure why exactly you keep saying it.

see above.

NikonClio64
The AI software for autofocus is trained on supercomputers

no, deep learning is done with pc's not supercomputers, leveraging high-powered video cards: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/deep-learning-ai/solutions/workstation/
May 20, 2023 at 09:10 AM
groob
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p.20 #16 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




lukemeup wrote:
Nope - thread derailed by a Sony troll whose aggressive and condescending comments are a constant reminder it's not worth it to argue with idiots on the internet. This forum deserves better than this. Not many engage because 'hide me' list is a useful feature.

One of whom cries foul when asked for evidence—like images—to back up his outlandish claims regarding the competency or lack thereof of camera systems. Hide me is a fantastic feature, but osv should be banned. He provides nothing of value and personally insults other users in nearly every post. He’s much worse than the JohnK guy was.


May 20, 2023 at 09:35 AM
NikonClio64
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p.20 #17 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Back to the Z8... Steve Perry has just released his interim assessment that answers several questions

11 min: "this is probably the best bang for the buck wildlife and nature camera that you can buy right now..."
May 20, 2023 at 09:50 AM
RoamingScott
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p.20 #18 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


We needed Steve Perry to tell us that?

NikonClio64 wrote:
Back to the Z8... Steve Perry has just released his interim assessment that answers several questions

11 min: "this is probably the best bang for the buck wildlife and nature camera that you can buy right now..."
May 20, 2023 at 10:07 AM
Gary Irwin
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p.20 #19 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


RoamingScott wrote:
We needed Steve Perry to tell us that?



Well, coming from Steve, my take-away is there are NO major downsides to the Z8, which is going to be a hot seller for Nikon despite the price. I own the Z9 but I'm seriously considering a Z8 myself.
May 20, 2023 at 10:17 AM
maverick777
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p.20 #20 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




RoamingScott wrote:
We needed Steve Perry to tell us that?


Needed? No. But appreciated. I respect him since he shoots wildlife with all three systems with the lens I can only dream of owning. He's at the top of my list for respected reviewers. There's few that have as much experience with all three systems for wildlife.


May 20, 2023 at 10:59 AM
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