p.19 #1 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
DanielJStein wrote:
This is such a cool feature and I am glad the Z8 is getting it. I really wish they would trickle this down to the Z6 line however. It is my primary astro body and I prefer the smaller size and weight for hikes.
My jaw literally dropped the first time I used it, just watching the milky way coming into view within a few seconds. It's wild.
p.19 #2 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Is there a preferred lens for milky way photos?
DanielJStein wrote:
This is such a cool feature and I am glad the Z8 is getting it. I really wish they would trickle this down to the Z6 line however. It is my primary astro body and I prefer the smaller size and weight for hikes.
p.19 #3 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
wjmeyer wrote:
Getting back to the Z8. So it's pretty clear the Z8 is really just a Z9 in a smaller body with some minor tweaks. The Z9 is pretty well established and many on this thread already own the Z9.
As I ponder whether the Z8 will actually be a worthwhile investment at this time (I have a pre-order but debating is this more of my ADHD and shiny new object obsession or is it something that will really help in my photographic endeavors), I'd like to ask those who may have Z6/Z7 and Z9 experience, what benefits have you seen with the Z9 (over the previous Z series) and what is your shooting style and subject matter (I ask the latter because I think it's relevant to know that if you're a hand held sports photographer your needs are likely different from a landscape photographer that mostly uses a tripod). Are those benefits quantifiable? For example: "As a sports photographer using the Z7II my keeper rate was 60%, but after getting the Z9 I noticed my keeper rate increased to 80%." Other things like viewfinder in bright sun, low light ability, buttons and menu and things like that are helpful to understand as well....Show more →
I'm a hobbyist that dabbles in various genres but mainly landscape, travel, astro, and bird photography and kids portraiture now that I have a child.
Easy benefits coming from a Z6 and having people around me with Z9's I'll say the following are benefits of the Z8:
AF Tracking - HUGE upgrade from the Z6. Very beneficial for any type of action. So for me that will be with birds and with kids running around.
HE* file format - This a something I'm really looking forward to and one the features I'm most excited about coming from the Z6. It looks like the HE* files are very similar to my Z6 lossless compressed RAW files size. It's a boon to have these smaller files for storage without sacrificing resolution as with the previous medium RAW format. Not to mentioned HE* allows for such a huge buffer that I realistically will never need to worth about buffer performance. Even if I did have a concern I could switch to HE and have an unlimited buffer with only a minor quality loss. That's still way better than JPEG for editing options.
Bright EVF - This is a big benefit shooting outdoors in bright sunny conditions which impacts most of what I shoot whether landscape or action. The Z6 viewfinder is difficult to use in bright conditions.
No blackout EVF - HUGE benefit for action and a massive upgrade over the slideshow of the Z6.
Dual axis title screen - Very beneficial for low angle shots which I do a lot of in all genres of photography.
Backlit buttons - Very useful in low light situations which affects all types of photography.
Starlight mode - Very useful for astro. -9 EV AF is incredible.
Warm display mode - Very useful for astro.
USB PD - one feature from the Z6II/Z7II bodies I wanted, but not enough to upgrade.
Dual USB-C ports - a unique feature to the Z8 and a welcome addition. Being able to use one USB-C for power and another for accessories will be very useful. I sometimes use my Z6 as a camera for Zoom. It's nice to be able to power the camera with one port and use the other one for streaming.
Shooting recall function - Very useful feature.
Voice memo - Useful for travel pics.
Synchro VR - Usefulness TBD but nice to have. I'm getting the Z8 to use with the Z100-400 which works with synchro VR. We'll see if I notice any difference with the 0.5 extra stop of VR that Nikon claims.
EN-EL15C battery - It's nice to share the same battery as the Z6 line because the Z8 will not replace my Z6. It's an addition to my bag. So it's nice to have both cameras share the same battery and charger especially when traveling.
The list is getting rather long so I'll leave it there. But needless to say for my styles of shooting the Z8 is a massive upgrade from the Z6. I fortunately have the budget for it so it's worth the premium over what the Z6III or Z7III will be in terms of price. Time is opportunity so I'd rather get the Z8 knowing it's more camera than I'll likely ever need and pay a premium to have it now (hopefully next week). The Z8 is truly a D850 for me in that it's a camera that will outlast my photographic needs and capabilities. I can focus on lens after this (hopefully a Z 500/600mm PF) and maybe pick up a second Z8 down the road when they're under $3K used or maybe Z7III instead depending on the difference in capabilities with an expected higher resolution sensor. But it's hard for me to imagine needing more the 45MP even for what I do with landscape. The largest prints I've made are 36"x24".
May 19, 2023 at 11:57 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.19 #4 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Jesse Evans wrote:
Almost every computer vision model built in the last decade is built off of deep learning techniques. It would be virtually impossible to run object detection autofocus without the application of deep learning techniques. I’m not sure what you think deep learning is, but every single object detection and tracking autofocus in any of the manufacturers involve models trained using deep learning.
you clearly failed to read the thread, because there have been multiple ignorant comments about a.i., and really, you aren't getting it either.
this is where the stupidity started:
JustShootMe wrote:
There is no AI in cameras (Yet)
that is totally wrong, as i've repeatedly proven with the definitions of ANI, that went right over his head and apparently yours as well.
don't make claims about "deep learning", when you are in denial about it and don't have a clue how a.i. is actually implemented on the camera.
May 19, 2023 at 12:32 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.19 #5 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
tctmp wrote:
Is the model playback considered AI? I think in general yes if the model is constructed and trained generically, that is, without any hard coding the algorithms. It's like if you interact with ChatGPT, it's considered you are interacting with AI even though it's trained beforehand for the most part.
chatgpt uses the same ANI class of a.i. that our cameras use, with autofocus subject recognition:
"NARROW OR WEAK AI
Narrow or “weak” AI is made for performing specific tasks. While they give the illusion of autonomy, they will respond to an input in the exact same way every time. You’ve probably encountered all sorts of narrow AI solutions in your everyday life: Apple’s Siri, Amazon’s Alexa, self-driving cars, and automated chat systems are an example of this ideological approach to AI.
Despite its impressive abilities, ChatGPT is still a limited memory AI system. It is unique from other chatbots because it can call on past answers to update its current output. Unfortunately, it’s limited to a single medium: text-based chat. That makes it a form of narrow or “weak” AI." https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/tech-takes/what-is-chatgpt
p.19 #6 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
sjms wrote:
discussing AI is one thing and that's what we can do. preaching and imposing about the supposed superiority of other gear is not what should be doing. if we have an adult level conversation all is good. it is generally those who do the preaching/imposing destroy the environment of intelligent conversation screw things up. please don't "Ah" me and think about how you want to be taken and respected.
I actually happen to agree with you, I was only stating the "ah" with regard to your comment about ending the conversation which I assumed your comment would not "end" the conversation.
p.19 #8 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
lukemeup wrote:
I'm an amateur & I photograph a lot of different things (people, events, landscapes and more recently - nature/birds). I have owned Z6 (since the release - still have it as a backup / wife's camera), Z7II (sold after getting the Z9) and currently own a Z9. While I could get most of the shots I wanted (except for birds) with a Z6 it required much more effort (and sometimes luck as well).
Benefits of the Z9 (for me):
- AF (things that were hard with the Z6/Z7 became practically effortless)
- blackout free viewfinder (no lag, no slideshow)
- dual axis tilting LCD (that's a big one for me)
- the overall responsiveness of the body
- pre-capture (only in jpg though but it allowed me to get some shots I'd otherwise have trouble getting)
- illuminated buttons
The only downside is the size and weight but Z8 addresses it & for me it will be perfect size (slightly larger than Z6/Z7 where I had to use a smallrig bottom plate because otherwise my pinky would end up off the grip). I'm looking forward to getting the Z8 and going to see how it balances with 400 4.5 / 800 6.3. If it's comfy - my Z9 will likely be sold (and I know I'm a minority here because most of the Z9 owners are planning to keep theirs - I just can't justify keeping 2 expensive bodies considering I don't shoot for $). ...Show more →
I'm very similar to you Luke, though I did shoot professionally for over 15 years (about half in film and half in digital) I no longer shoot for $ except as a small side business for the occasional wedding and portrait shoot. I too am shooting (people, events, landscapes and more recently - nature/birds) so appreciate your feedback. I was excited to see the pre-capture was supported in Z8 but I was not aware it is for JPG only, that is not ideal and hopefully a firmware update can support RAW. Same as you, my Z6 wears a Smallrig arca adapter simply for somewhere for my pinky to go which is why I'm looking forward to the Z8 being able to support my full hand with a more streamlined arca plate.
p.19 #9 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
I would not buy a Z8 assuming the pre-capture comes to raw. We just don’t know.
wjmeyer wrote:
I'm very similar to you Luke, though I did shoot professionally for over 15 years (about half in film and half in digital) I no longer shoot for $ except as a small side business for the occasional wedding and portrait shoot. I too am shooting (people, events, landscapes and more recently - nature/birds) so appreciate your feedback. I was excited to see the pre-capture was supported in Z8 but I was not aware it is for JPG only, that is not ideal and hopefully a firmware update can support RAW. Same as you, my Z6 wears a Smallrig arca adapter simply for somewhere for my pinky to go which is why I'm looking forward to the Z8 being able to support my full hand with a more streamlined arca plate....Show more →
p.19 #10 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
wjmeyer wrote:
I'm very similar to you Luke, though I did shoot professionally for over 15 years (about half in film and half in digital) I no longer shoot for $ except as a small side business for the occasional wedding and portrait shoot. I too am shooting (people, events, landscapes and more recently - nature/birds) so appreciate your feedback. I was excited to see the pre-capture was supported in Z8 but I was not aware it is for JPG only, that is not ideal and hopefully a firmware update can support RAW. Same as you, my Z6 wears a Smallrig arca adapter simply for somewhere for my pinky to go which is why I'm looking forward to the Z8 being able to support my full hand with a more streamlined arca plate....Show more →
All I can tell - if you're coming from Z6 to Z8 you'll be absolutely blown away how much more responsive and solid the shooting experience is. It is on a completely different level performance wise and even at the MSRP it's a very good deal, imo.
I wouldn't count on the RAW pre-capture though but who knows - Nikon introduced a lot of new features and improvements since Z9 was released (but I suspect they'll might want to keep this feature for Z9II).
p.19 #11 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
osv2 wrote:
you clearly failed to read the thread, because there have been multiple ignorant comments about a.i., and really, you aren't getting it either.
this is where the stupidity started:
that is totally wrong, as i've repeatedly proven with the definitions of ANI, that went right over his head and apparently yours as well.
don't make claims about "deep learning", when you are in denial about it and don't have a clue how a.i. is actually implemented on the camera.
I don’t know if that last paragraph was directed at me or not. There is no AI in existence that was trained without deep learning. If your claim is that the cameras have ANI, but somehow lack “deep learning”, you’re contradicting yourself. The comment you quoted is wrong, but so are you.
p.19 #12 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
RoamingScott wrote:
Agree with all of these, with the dual tilt axis LCD being a huge one. The EVF set to 120hz is also fantastically smooth and bright.
I'd add:
- playback button in much better place, doesn't require left hand
- starlight view for astro/blue hour/milky way
- warm color lcd for astro
- HE* raw files are a total game changer, ~35mb each with no loss of IQ
Overall, the Z7ii gave me more keepers than I felt like it was capturing...I had a hard "trusting" the camera in the field, but was usually pleasantly surprised at the output. The Z9 feels like it's showing me exactly how it's performing while using it with very few surprises when I get back to the computer.
My only complaint with the Z9 is size and weight, but that's mostly because of how I wear my camera on my pack strap. People that use more robust methods/cotton carrier/etc don't have that problem....Show more →
Thank you for that Scott, tell me more about starlight view and warm lcd... coming from shooting mostly people the idea of capturing the night sky is pretty foreign to me but I see more and more of these "milky way" images and have wanted to try my hand at that but have not found the opportunity yet (mostly because I simply haven't taken the time to learn).
Also, I must have missed the HE* RAW when perusing all the info, how does this differ from the other RAW formats, but I'm assuming it's much better than lossless RAW for 45mp in lieu of the file size you indicate of around 35mb.
p.19 #13 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
RoamingScott wrote:
My jaw literally dropped the first time I used it, just watching the milky way coming into view within a few seconds. It's wild.
So it sounds like you can literally preview the milky way on the back LCD, does it basically set everything for you in camera so you just press the shutter or?
p.19 #14 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
maverick777 wrote:
I'm a hobbyist that dabbles in various genres but mainly landscape, travel, astro, and bird photography and kids portraiture now that I have a child.
Easy benefits coming from a Z6 and having people around me with Z9's I'll say the following are benefits of the Z8:
AF Tracking - HUGE upgrade from the Z6. Very beneficial for any type of action. So for me that will be with birds and with kids running around.
HE* file format - This a something I'm really looking forward to and one the features I'm most excited about coming from the Z6. It looks like the HE* files are very similar to my Z6 lossless compressed RAW files size. It's a boon to have these smaller files for storage without sacrificing resolution as with the previous medium RAW format. Not to mentioned HE* allows for such a huge buffer that I realistically will never need to worth about buffer performance. Even if I did have a concern I could switch to HE and have an unlimited buffer with only a minor quality loss. That's still way better than JPEG for editing options.
Bright EVF - This is a big benefit shooting outdoors in bright sunny conditions which impacts most of what I shoot whether landscape or action. The Z6 viewfinder is difficult to use in bright conditions.
No blackout EVF - HUGE benefit for action and a massive upgrade over the slideshow of the Z6.
Dual axis title screen - Very beneficial for low angle shots which I do a lot of in all genres of photography.
Backlit buttons - Very useful in low light situations which affects all types of photography.
Starlight mode - Very useful for astro. -9 EV AF is incredible.
Warm display mode - Very useful for astro.
USB PD - one feature from the Z6II/Z7II bodies I wanted, but not enough to upgrade.
Dual USB-C ports - a unique feature to the Z8 and a welcome addition. Being able to use one USB-C for power and another for accessories will be very useful. I sometimes use my Z6 as a camera for Zoom. It's nice to be able to power the camera with one port and use the other one for streaming.
Shooting recall function - Very useful feature.
Voice memo - Useful for travel pics.
Synchro VR - Usefulness TBD but nice to have. I'm getting the Z8 to use with the Z100-400 which works with synchro VR. We'll see if I notice any difference with the 0.5 extra stop of VR that Nikon claims.
EN-EL15C battery - It's nice to share the same battery as the Z6 line because the Z8 will not replace my Z6. It's an addition to my bag. So it's nice to have both cameras share the same battery and charger especially when traveling.
The list is getting rather long so I'll leave it there. But needless to say for my styles of shooting the Z8 is a massive upgrade from the Z6. I fortunately have the budget for it so it's worth the premium over what the Z6III or Z7III will be in terms of price. Time is opportunity so I'd rather get the Z8 knowing it's more camera than I'll likely ever need and pay a premium to have it now (hopefully next week). The Z8 is truly a D850 for me in that it's a camera that will outlast my photographic needs and capabilities. I can focus on lens after this (hopefully a Z 500/600mm PF) and maybe pick up a second Z8 down the road when they're under $3K used or maybe Z7III instead depending on the difference in capabilities with an expected higher resolution sensor. But it's hard for me to imagine needing more the 45MP even for what I do with landscape. The largest prints I've made are 36"x24"....Show more →
Appreciate all that Maverick, you echo what some others have said and it's making it very hard not to think of going this route. A couple questions though - what is "Shooting recall"? And what is Synchro VR since even my Z6 can use the VR in my 70-200 f/2.8 S along with IBIS?
Also, I was making 36x24 canvas prints for clients with the 12mp D700 that looked amazing so I can only imagine what a clean 45mp image can provide with regard to detail.
p.19 #15 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
wjmeyer wrote:
Thank you for that Scott, tell me more about starlight view and warm lcd... coming from shooting mostly people the idea of capturing the night sky is pretty foreign to me but I see more and more of these "milky way" images and have wanted to try my hand at that but have not found the opportunity yet (mostly because I simply haven't taken the time to learn).
Also, I must have missed the HE* RAW when perusing all the info, how does this differ from the other RAW formats, but I'm assuming it's much better than lossless RAW for 45mp in lieu of the file size you indicate of around 35mb. ...Show more →
Starlight mode is where the display moves to a once per second refresh rate and becomes extremely light sensitive over time. It allows you to see foreground objects and the milky way in total darkness, allowing you to frame long exposures without external lights. It's amazing. Starlight view does not automate astro shooting, you still have to set all the parameters. It simply allows for composing a shot in pitch darkness.
Warm display turns all of your displays into Red/Black so you don't lose your night vision while working on astro.
The two go-to lenses for astro on Z are the 14-24/2.8 and 20/1.8.
HE* is best described at "very near lossless". It features great compression rates and is virtually indistinguishable from lossless compressed. I have shot HE* since day 1 and have not run into things I'd consider the effects of compression.
p.19 #16 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
RoamingScott wrote:
I would not buy a Z8 assuming the pre-capture comes to raw. We just don’t know.
Not at all, I was just thinking out loud there, it would not be a decision maker for the Z8, just an added bonus. When I tried out the OM Systems OM-1 the OM PC software had a nice feature of filtering out badly focused images specifically for pre-capture mode - you would decide the area that needed to be in focus and the software would run some algorithm to identify shots that didn't meet a certain focus requirement, you could go from 200 images down to about 20 in seconds which really helped. 60fps is a lot of images (120fps was way too much) that was hard to sort, wonder if Nikon, or better yet Lightroom, will come out with a similar feature. Now that I think about it, the OM-1 might have also only had pre-capture in jpg as well, but I do not remember for certain (I'd have to go back to those folders and see if they were jpg's or RAW's).
p.19 #17 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
RoamingScott wrote:
Starlight mode is where the display moves to a once per second refresh rate and becomes extremely light sensitive over time. It allows you to see foreground objects and the milky way in total darkness, allowing you to frame long exposures without external lights. It's amazing. Starlight view does not automate astro shooting, you still have to set all the parameters. It simply allows for composing a shot in pitch darkness.
Warm display turns all of your displays into Red/Black so you don't lose your night vision while working on astro.
The two go-to lenses for astro on Z are the 14-24/2.8 and 20/1.8.
HE* is best described at "very near lossless". It features great compression rates and is virtually indistinguishable from lossless compressed. I have shot HE* since day 1 and have not run into things I'd consider the effects of compression....Show more →
Brilliant, thank you for all the detail, that makes a lot more sense now about Starlight mode as well as warm display, I'm sure I could have dug that out in the manual but asking an expert here means I don't have too HE* sounds like how I envision it, very glad to hear they came up with another compression algorithm to make file sizes more manageable while retaining most of the aspects of the RAW file format, I would definitely utilize this feature.
p.19 #18 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
wjmeyer wrote:
Appreciate all that Maverick, you echo what some others have said and it's making it very hard not to think of going this route. A couple questions though - what is "Shooting recall"? And what is Synchro VR since even my Z6 can use the VR in my 70-200 f/2.8 S along with IBIS?
Also, I was making 36x24 canvas prints for clients with the 12mp D700 that looked amazing so I can only imagine what a clean 45mp image can provide with regard to detail.
This video may help explain shooting recall functions. It's a little complicated to explain how it works.
Synchro VR is an extra level of VR that only works with the Z8 and Z9 that gives it an extra 0.5 stops of VR with certain lenses. It's not that the Z6/Z7 doesn't work with the VR. It's that that Z8/Z9 works even better by coordinating the camera IBIS with the lens VR better.
p.19 #19 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
You can tie all sorts of settings into Recall Shooting. I do something pretty simplistic on my Fn1 button, where the only recalled setting is spot metering. Normally I'll shoot in Matrix metering, but I have my Recall Shooting settings only remember metering settings, so tapping on Fn1 immediately changes my metering to spot. Very helpful for perched birds.
May 19, 2023 at 04:53 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.19 #20 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Jesse Evans wrote:
I don’t know if that last paragraph was directed at me or not. There is no AI in existence that was trained without deep learning.
no, that is wrong:
"Artificial intelligence is the overarching term that covers a wide variety of specific approaches and algorithms. Machine learning sits under that umbrella, but so do other major subfields, such as deep learning, robotics, expert systems, and natural language processing." https://cloud.google.com/learn/artificial-intelligence-vs-machine-learning
you still don't understand what ANI is, but that's par for the course out here.
HE* sounds like how I envision it, very glad to hear they came up with another compression algorithm to make file sizes more manageable while retaining most of the aspects of the RAW file format, I would definitely utilize this feature.