p.18 #2 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
osv2 wrote:
no, you are incorrect, it is a form of a.i.
"Artificial narrow intelligence (ANI) is crucial to voice assistants, such as Siri, Alexa, and Google Assistant. This category includes intelligent systems that have been designed or trained to carry out specific tasks or solve particular problems, without being explicitly designed to do so.
ANI might often be referred to as weak AI, as it doesn't possess general intelligence, but some examples of the power of narrow AI include the above voice assistants, and also image-recognition systems, technologies that respond to simple customer service requests, and tools that flag inappropriate content online."https://www.zdnet.com/article/what-is-ai-heres-everything-you-need-to-know-about-artificial-intelligence/
Oh good, we’ve got the crowned king and the pretender to the throne of the FM measurebators posting back-to-back in this thread. We should all bask in their brilliant and totally useful (and not at all completely useless) comments. How could we be so lucky? I’ve never encountered such committed pettifoggers outside of socially maladjusted 6 year old children.
p.18 #3 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
The point is valid. The cameras are using offline algorithms. The camera itself will never learn anything new on its own, nor will it contribute its learning to the greater ML algorithm.
Calling what the cameras do and have as "AI" is misleading to a degree, and it's simply marketing to casuals that don't know any better.
It's being pedantic, but it IS correct to say these cameras don't have AI. They utilize algorithms developed and updated by AI back at home base, and sometimes they use neural processing (if so equipped).
p.18 #4 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
RoamingScott wrote:
The point is valid. The cameras are using offline algorithms. The camera itself will never learn anything new on its own, nor will it contribute its learning to the greater ML algorithm.
Calling what the cameras do and have as "AI" is misleading to a degree, and it's simply marketing to casuals that don't know any better.
It's being pedantic, but it IS correct to say these cameras don't have AI. They utilize algorithms developed and updated by AI back at home base, and sometimes they use neural processing (if so equipped).
Exactly this is nothing new , nothing but buzz words. Now if the camera could learn from your shooting style and course correct that would be a different story. Several of the worlds top 500 super computers were built by my team , it’s takes a lot of processing power to truly learn and adapt in real time , that is AI … the rest is marketing bullshit.
May 18, 2023 at 10:24 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.18 #5 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
lukemeup wrote:
Z9 is using deep learning which is an evolution of machine learning.
the z9 is not using deep learning, it's not capable of learning anything.
Of course it's not learning anything by itself. It's a closed system. Updating algorithm with every firmware version is more likely how it works. But please tell me that Sony is 'learning' and we can wrap this pointless discussion up.
May 18, 2023 at 10:34 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.18 #7 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
lukemeup wrote:
Of course it's not learning anything by itself. It's a closed system.
statements like "Z9 is using deep learning" and "it is either intelligent or not.. if it can not learn it is not" are wrong.
p.18 #8 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
osv2 wrote:
statements like "Z9 is using deep learning" and "it is either intelligent or not.. if it can not learn it is not" are wrong.
You are wrong.
Some of the software in the Z9 comprises deep learning algorithms (also termed Machine Learning). (The Z8 has the same features of the 3/4 price of the Z9.) This software is taught to recognize these images on super computers, with the ability to discern patterns in scenes and identify categories of subjects. This recognition works to a hierarchy.
But these cameras are indeed a closed system. The software can be improved, and as we know, these are updated into the camera via Firmware. It is explained in this article, which a final year primary school pupil should be capable of understanding.
Nikon has been using pioneering versions of deep-learning software since the 1990s, and in fact earlier in the multi-exposure mode FA (1984). The 3D-Tracking in the D6 (and other Pro DSLRs) also uses pattern recognition for eye/face detection.
Deep Learning in the Z8 and Z9 is NOT fully capable AI, however, as is explained in this article
p.18 #9 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Real-time learning would be quite problematic as the behaviour of the camera would change from day to day and the manufacturer would not be able to ensure that it's staying within reasonable limits. The user generally expects the camera to be above all predictable and reproducible in its behaviour so that the human intelligence behind its use can adopt to its behaviour and learn how to control it to get the best results.
I don't think a system that constantly changes is desirable in the context of cameras. I also don't want my photos to be uploaded for the camera manufacturer to use it to feed to its algorithms. The images are private unless I decide to publish them. What I photograph is my business and not theirs or their algorithms to study.
AI is a very broad field of science and it's not just about on-line learning but algorithms which can be shown inputs and desirable outputs and which then can be taught to produce the desirable outputs when new inputs are given to the system. This is supervised learning. AI can also involve unsupervised learning which doesn't require explicit effort to teach the system something. But I think it's very important to keep the objectives of the system in tight control to achieve a usable final algorithm.
An on-line learning algorithm without proper supervision can produce erratic and undesirable outputs. Much like humans. I think if people wanted an on-line learning system they'd just hire a person to do that role. And put up with the quirks of human personality.
Algorithms that have been taught by examples (offline) are also part of the field of artificial intelligence and have been used for a long time to solve specific problems. I don't anyone is being mislead into thinking that the algorithms in cameras or image editing tools that use AI learn in real time as they are being used.
p.18 #11 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
duncang wrote:
Learning new stuff often involves some sort of discomfort.
It was not so long ago that there were a lot of 'uncomfortable' DSLR users on these forums. For the most part they have now embraced the advantages mirrorless offer...
sir you are far from learning and regretfully dull. i am results oriented so i learn. the discomfort you bring is noise that is unwarranted and unwanted. your preaching isn't going to make a difference. instead try showing how it makes a difference with your work.
over the almost 50 years of shooting i have created a lot of crap and still do at times depending on me or the mob. and over time i also learned how to improve hopefully with my not so AI noggin. both sides of this "so called discussion" have points but not all are for all. so many ways people choose to shoot experiments that work and ones that fail. that is the fine art and science of photography.
again, since what we do is a visual medium show us what you do and how you got there.
now to end this i will say that i'm happy that you are so happy and excited about your choices and i hope you get the results you are looking/hoping for and show it off with pride. but just remember who or what put the real effort into it.
p.18 #12 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
sjms wrote:
now to end this...
Ah, but I don't think it will end as long as we keep responding to each other. After reading several pages of AI debate I have found it interesting but not sure it is useful? Yes, the merits of whether something is or is not AI is of interest but maybe another thread would be appropriate for that (I have my own thoughts and views on AI but do not want to muddy the waters here).
May 19, 2023 at 08:31 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.18 #13 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
NikonClio64 wrote:
You are wrong.
no, you are wrong, the z8/z9 do NOT have deep learning capability, people have been posting false information that duncang and myself had to correct.
as i already proved, canon is also pimping the term "deep learning" just like nikon does, it's sales drivel for people who don't understand the technology.
i also proved that ANI *is* artificial intelligence, and that all of these cameras have it... that's not arguable but of course this being the nikon forum, nikon owners think that nikon is somehow superior to the other camera companies... it's a silly claim, sony for instance has been working on a.i. for years now, they have far more experience with it: https://ai.sony/
people out here need to learn what ANI is:
"Artificial narrow intelligence system usually gets training on a specific dataset so that it can develop an understanding of the problem they are supposed to resolve. Once it is achieved, ANI can use the knowledge for decision-making, outcome prediction, and action execution.
For example, if you want to train a narrow AI system to identify birds in images, you need to train it with a dataset that contains the images of birds. After the training, ANI will be able to identify birds when it sees one in other images." https://geekflare.com/artificial-narrow-intelligence/
p.18 #14 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Getting back to the Z8. So it's pretty clear the Z8 is really just a Z9 in a smaller body with some minor tweaks. The Z9 is pretty well established and many on this thread already own the Z9.
As I ponder whether the Z8 will actually be a worthwhile investment at this time (I have a pre-order but debating is this more of my ADHD and shiny new object obsession or is it something that will really help in my photographic endeavors), I'd like to ask those who may have Z6/Z7 and Z9 experience, what benefits have you seen with the Z9 (over the previous Z series) and what is your shooting style and subject matter (I ask the latter because I think it's relevant to know that if you're a hand held sports photographer your needs are likely different from a landscape photographer that mostly uses a tripod). Are those benefits quantifiable? For example: "As a sports photographer using the Z7II my keeper rate was 60%, but after getting the Z9 I noticed my keeper rate increased to 80%." Other things like viewfinder in bright sun, low light ability, buttons and menu and things like that are helpful to understand as well.
p.18 #15 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
wjmeyer wrote:
Ah, but I don't think it will end as long as we keep responding to each other. After reading several pages of AI debate I have found it interesting but not sure it is useful? Yes, the merits of whether something is or is not AI is of interest but maybe another thread would be appropriate for that (I have my own thoughts and views on AI but do not want to muddy the waters here).
discussing AI is one thing and that's what we can do. preaching and imposing about the supposed superiority of other gear is not what should be doing. if we have an adult level conversation all is good. it is generally those who do the preaching/imposing destroy the environment of intelligent conversation screw things up. please don't "Ah" me and think about how you want to be taken and respected.
p.18 #16 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
osv2 wrote:
no, you are wrong, the z8/z9 do NOT have deep learning capability, people have been posting false information that duncang and myself had to correct.
as i already proved, canon is also pimping the term "deep learning" just like nikon does, it's sales drivel for people who don't understand the technology.
Almost every computer vision model built in the last decade is built off of deep learning techniques. It would be virtually impossible to run object detection autofocus without the application of deep learning techniques. I’m not sure what you think deep learning is, but every single object detection and tracking autofocus in any of the manufacturers involve models trained using deep learning.
Cameras do not do deep learning, ML models are trained using deep learning. These models are then run on the cameras, where no additional learning is happening.
p.18 #17 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
wjmeyer wrote:
Getting back to the Z8. So it's pretty clear the Z8 is really just a Z9 in a smaller body with some minor tweaks. The Z9 is pretty well established and many on this thread already own the Z9.
As I ponder whether the Z8 will actually be a worthwhile investment at this time (I have a pre-order but debating is this more of my ADHD and shiny new object obsession or is it something that will really help in my photographic endeavors), I'd like to ask those who may have Z6/Z7 and Z9 experience, what benefits have you seen with the Z9 (over the previous Z series) and what is your shooting style and subject matter (I ask the latter because I think it's relevant to know that if you're a hand held sports photographer your needs are likely different from a landscape photographer that mostly uses a tripod). Are those benefits quantifiable? For example: "As a sports photographer using the Z7II my keeper rate was 60%, but after getting the Z9 I noticed my keeper rate increased to 80%." Other things like viewfinder in bright sun, low light ability, buttons and menu and things like that are helpful to understand as well....Show more →
I'm an amateur & I photograph a lot of different things (people, events, landscapes and more recently - nature/birds). I have owned Z6 (since the release - still have it as a backup / wife's camera), Z7II (sold after getting the Z9) and currently own a Z9. While I could get most of the shots I wanted (except for birds) with a Z6 it required much more effort (and sometimes luck as well).
Benefits of the Z9 (for me):
- AF (things that were hard with the Z6/Z7 became practically effortless)
- blackout free viewfinder (no lag, no slideshow)
- dual axis tilting LCD (that's a big one for me)
- the overall responsiveness of the body
- pre-capture (only in jpg though but it allowed me to get some shots I'd otherwise have trouble getting)
- illuminated buttons
The only downside is the size and weight but Z8 addresses it & for me it will be perfect size (slightly larger than Z6/Z7 where I had to use a smallrig bottom plate because otherwise my pinky would end up off the grip). I'm looking forward to getting the Z8 and going to see how it balances with 400 4.5 / 800 6.3. If it's comfy - my Z9 will likely be sold (and I know I'm a minority here because most of the Z9 owners are planning to keep theirs - I just can't justify keeping 2 expensive bodies considering I don't shoot for $).
p.18 #18 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
lukemeup wrote:
Benefits of the Z9 (for me):
- AF (things that were hard with the Z6/Z7 became practically effortless)
- blackout free viewfinder (no lag, no slideshow)
- dual axis tilting LCD (that's a big one for me)
- the overall responsiveness of the body
- pre-capture (only in jpg though but it allowed me to get some shots I'd otherwise have trouble getting)
- illuminated buttons
Agree with all of these, with the dual tilt axis LCD being a huge one. The EVF set to 120hz is also fantastically smooth and bright.
I'd add:
- playback button in much better place, doesn't require left hand
- starlight view for astro/blue hour/milky way
- warm color lcd for astro
- HE* raw files are a total game changer, ~35mb each with no loss of IQ
Overall, the Z7ii gave me more keepers than I felt like it was capturing...I had a hard "trusting" the camera in the field, but was usually pleasantly surprised at the output. The Z9 feels like it's showing me exactly how it's performing while using it with very few surprises when I get back to the computer.
My only complaint with the Z9 is size and weight, but that's mostly because of how I wear my camera on my pack strap. People that use more robust methods/cotton carrier/etc don't have that problem.
p.18 #19 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
I think people are arguing about AI semantics without it being well defined.
Any learning happens offline, so far I don't think any camera has in camera learning. The model playback happens in camera. With a specific processor for such purpose like the one in A7RV, it is done more efficiently, but any general purpose cpu works too.
Is the model playback considered AI? I think in general yes if the model is constructed and trained generically, that is, without any hard coding the algorithms. It's like if you interact with ChatGPT, it's considered you are interacting with AI even though it's trained beforehand for the most part.
Now if you write a customized algorithm to recognize some shapes, then it's not considered AI anymore.
p.18 #20 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
RoamingScott wrote:
- starlight view for astro/blue hour/milky way
This is such a cool feature and I am glad the Z8 is getting it. I really wish they would trickle this down to the Z6 line however. It is my primary astro body and I prefer the smaller size and weight for hikes.
