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Archive 2020 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses

  
 
RustyBug
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p.34 #1 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


40 Batis vs. 45 Contemporary

361g vs. 215g ... (168%)
91mm vs. 64mm ... (142%)
93mm vs. 46mm ... (200%)
8463 mm^3 vs. 2944 mm^3 ... (287%)
$1,104 vs. $549 ... (200%)

Expectations

Or, you get what you pay for (size, weight, $$$).

For double the price, nearly double the weight and triple the volume ... I'd expect that it would perform better on many counts.
Rendering, otoh can be much more subjective.

Again, the 45 Siggy is part of the Contemporary Series, not the Art series ... i.e. expectations.


Edited on Dec 13, 2020 at 09:36 PM · View previous versions



Dec 13, 2020 at 09:29 PM
chez
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p.34 #2 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


RustyBug wrote:
40 Batis vs. 45 Contemporary

361g vs. 215g ... (168%)
91mm vs. 64mm ... (142%)
93mm vs. 46mm ... (200%)
8463 mm^3 vs. 2944 mm^3 ... (287%)
$1,104 vs. $549 ... (200%)

Expectations


One does the job...the other

I spend many thousands of dollars each year on travel to bring back photos. Spending an extra $500 with something that gives me confidence when I press the shutter is well worth it. I'm about to join Photographer's without borders where it is expected to bring back the images...i don't want to second guess.

Everyone values different aspects of their gear. I value light weight gear a lot...but the gear needs to perform under the conditions I use it.



Dec 13, 2020 at 09:36 PM
goldb
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p.34 #3 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


AdaptedLenses wrote:
Or just stop down to f/4 and you’re good to roll.



F/4 and AFS might work outdoors on a immobile flower. Indoors in low light with a moving child is a whole different can of beans. F2.8 is already a pretty big compromise; going from f/1.8 to f/4 to get a sharp shot means ISO 2000 - > 8000. Not a trade-off I want to make.



Dec 13, 2020 at 09:36 PM
RustyBug
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p.34 #4 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


chez wrote:
One does the job...the other

I spend many thousands of dollars each year on travel to bring back photos. Spending an extra $500 with something that gives me confidence when I press the shutter is well worth it. I'm about to join Photographer's without borders where it is expected to bring back the images...i don't want to second guess.

Everyone values different aspects of their gear. I value light weight gear a lot...but the gear needs to perform under the conditions I use it.


And no one is debating that.

The point is that for those who do choose a price point, size point, weight point ... they should NOT BE SURPRISED that the performance might be different from something that is in a different league.

Different tools ... pick the one that fits the job.

No need to "justify" wanting the right tool for your job. Imo, that's a given ... I wouldn't expect anything less. The point here is that the "Contemporary" Series is not built to satisfy the same level of demands that other tools are. So, there should be no expectation for it to perform to that level on all counts. Not sure why people expect all around, top tier performance from mid tier tools.

Expectations.









Edited on Dec 13, 2020 at 09:46 PM · View previous versions



Dec 13, 2020 at 09:42 PM
Dave Sanders
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p.34 #5 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


goldb wrote:
F/4 and AFS might work outdoors on a immobile flower. Indoors in low light with a moving child is a whole different can of beans. F2.8 is already a pretty big compromise; going from f/1.8 to f/4 to get a sharp shot means ISO 2000 - > 8000. Not a trade-off I want to make.


Horses for courses, that's why I own more than one lens. I need reasons to justify new lenses to myself, needing one for rendering and another for indoor low light AF is perfectly fine



Dec 13, 2020 at 09:44 PM
chez
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p.34 #6 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


RustyBug wrote:
And no one is debating that.

The point is that for those who do choose a price point, size point, weight point ... they should NOT BE SURPRISED that the performance might be different from something that is in a different league.

Different tools ... pick the one that fits the job.

No need to "justify" wanting the right tool for your job. Imo, that's a given ... I wouldn't expect anything less. The point here is that the "Contemporary" Series is not built to satisfy the same level of demands that other tools are. So, there should be no expectation for
...Show more

Enjoy your lens.




Dec 13, 2020 at 09:45 PM
RustyBug
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p.34 #7 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


chez wrote:
Enjoy your lens.



As should everyone ... pick the tool that works for you. And for some folks, that might be one that fits their desired rendering, size, weight, price, etc. Imo, the Contemporary Series is an option for those with less demands in certain areas. If your demands are different than what the Contemporary Series offers, then assuredly those folks should look elsewhere ... Sigma already recognizes that with the Art Series. Not sure why some folks have such a difficult time understanding that the Contemporary Series isn't designed to be on the same tier as the Art Series or some other mfr offerings (in all regards) ... yet, want to complain that it isn't.

Expectations.


For me, as to the 45/2.8 Contemporary ... I'm looking for a close focusing short normal / wide in the L mount. Given that there aren't a lot of options that fit that bill, I'm at least giving consideration to the lens. Since I don't have to worry about AF-C on Sony bodies, it is still a lens for my personal consideration. If you know of any other close focus 40/45 lenses that could be contenders in the L mount, I'll gladly consider them too. 28 or 35 could be in the mix, too ... rendering dependent.



Edited on Dec 13, 2020 at 10:15 PM · View previous versions



Dec 13, 2020 at 09:51 PM
SlowDriver
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p.34 #8 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


Very interested in that 24mm lens... $549 and only 225g...


Dec 13, 2020 at 09:59 PM
goldb
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p.34 #9 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


RustyBug wrote:
As should everyone ... pick the tool that works for you. And for some folks, that might be one that fits their desired rendering, size, weight, price, etc. Imo, the Contemporary Series is an option for those with less demands in certain areas. If your demands are different than what the Contemporary Series offers, then assuredly those folks should look elsewhere ... Sigma already recognizes that with the Art Series. Not sure why some folks have such a difficult time understanding that the Contemporary Series isn't designed to be on the same tier as the Art Series or some other
...Show more

The compromises with the 45mm are not a necessary compromise to meet a price point with the contemporary series - it was a design choice to get a certain look. Soft image quality up close in exchange for softer bokeh. Some people like that look and the compromise along with it - some don't. But lets not call that choice some sort of necessary budget requirement to meet the constraints of the contemporary series. And certainly nothing about the contemporary series requires them to be sub-par at AFC; tamron, sony, and Samyang have all managed reasonably priced primes that can focus well.





Dec 13, 2020 at 10:12 PM
AdaptedLenses
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p.34 #10 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


Yea totally wrong tool for that. But I thought we were talking about how terribly soft it was up close?

goldb wrote:
F/4 and AFS might work outdoors on a immobile flower. Indoors in low light with a moving child is a whole different can of beans. F2.8 is already a pretty big compromise; going from f/1.8 to f/4 to get a sharp shot means ISO 2000 - > 8000. Not a trade-off I want to make.




Dec 13, 2020 at 10:18 PM
RustyBug
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p.34 #11 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


goldb wrote:
The compromises with the 45mm are not a necessary compromise to meet a price point with the contemporary series - it was a design choice to get a certain look. Soft image quality up close in exchange for softer bokeh. Some people like that look and the compromise along with it - some don't. But lets not call that choice some sort of necessary budget requirement to meet the constraints of the contemporary series. And certainly nothing about the contemporary series requires them to be sub-par at AFC; tamron, sony, and Samyang have all managed reasonably priced primes that can
...Show more

Yes, there are intentional rendering choices that were made. We've been through that. The fact remains that the Contemporary Series is in fact targeted to a different level of performance and optic (subsequently, price), size and weight from the Art Series. To suggest otherwise ...




Dec 13, 2020 at 10:19 PM
darrellc
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p.34 #12 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


chez wrote:
Yes, everyone has different requirements for focus and what might be ok for one just does work for another. For me, this lens would be used to photograph subjects that move and I love using eye-AF for these conditions. If the focus is unreliable then it really does not matter how good the rendering is if the focus is missed.

Most images I see with this lens are of stationary objects where it shines...but for moving subjects it just might fall short.

I'm back to looking at the Batis 40 as I love what I get from the 25 and 85.


If you are poo pooing the AFC of the Sigma 45 and have no tolerance for that level of C-AF performance, you may want to avoid the Batis 40.

I found the Batis 40 AF poor relative to the FE 35 1.8 if it is all about getting the shot... that’s after having 3 copies (3rd one a warranty replacement from Zeiss after sending my 2nd copy in for evaluation where they confirmed AF issues), never having confidence in AF-C with eye detect at around 1-2m, and buying and testing vs FE 35/1.8 exhaustively and seeing a significant accuracy leap with the Sony lens across hundreds of test shots comparing closeup eye af in AFC. Unlike the Sigma which I got for the look, the Batis was supposed to be my workhorse for shooting kids and failing AF meant it was promptly sold. Never had such issues with Batis 25/85.



Dec 13, 2020 at 10:46 PM
j4nu
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p.34 #13 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


darrellc wrote:
If you are poo pooing the AFC of the Sigma 45 and have no tolerance for that level of C-AF performance, you may want to avoid the Batis 40.

I found the Batis 40 AF poor relative to the FE 35 1.8 if it is all about getting the shot... that’s after having 3 copies (3rd one a warranty replacement from Zeiss after sending my 2nd copy in for evaluation where they confirmed AF issues), never having confidence in AF-C with eye detect at around 1-2m, and buying and testing vs FE 35/1.8 exhaustively and seeing a significant accuracy leap with
...Show more

+1



Dec 13, 2020 at 10:56 PM
chez
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p.34 #14 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


darrellc wrote:
If you are poo pooing the AFC of the Sigma 45 and have no tolerance for that level of C-AF performance, you may want to avoid the Batis 40.

I found the Batis 40 AF poor relative to the FE 35 1.8 if it is all about getting the shot... that’s after having 3 copies (3rd one a warranty replacement from Zeiss after sending my 2nd copy in for evaluation where they confirmed AF issues), never having confidence in AF-C with eye detect at around 1-2m, and buying and testing vs FE 35/1.8 exhaustively and seeing a significant accuracy leap with
...Show more

Yes I've heard both sides of the AF issues with the Batis. Many claim with the latest firmware, the AF issues have been fixed. I'll have to try it out for myself. The focus issues with the Sigma seem to be consistent with no new firmware for correction...so that's off my list. I'm also looking for something faster as 2.8 is a bit slip for indoors.



Dec 13, 2020 at 10:59 PM
zhangyue
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p.34 #15 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


j4nu wrote:
I'll chime in on the AF accuracy of 45mm debacle, as I grabbed this lens during BF sale (that was the only offer that caught my eye and I also wanted to see for myself how AF-C is in practice, because the opinions ranged from unsuable to completely okay).
So, in my limited testing on A7III of AF-C vs AF-S in range of 0.5m (that's where the wide open glow gets less noticeable imho) to a couple of meters maximum I came to the following conclusions:

* AF-C is simply unreliable, I'd say in 9/10 cases AF-S gives noticeably better focused image.
...Show more

---------------------------------------------
That is all acceptable to me if they are meant to be family images. I think there are so many important factors ahead of the sharpness for image like these. Lighting, story, composition, face expression etc.. and people know me know that I will put background rendering in front of sharpness difference with case like these

chez wrote:
Yes, everyone has different requirements for focus and what might be ok for one just does work for another. For me, this lens would be used to photograph subjects that move and I love using eye-AF for these conditions. If the focus is unreliable then it really does not matter how good the rendering is if the focus is missed.

Most images I see with this lens are of stationary objects where it shines...but for moving subjects it just might fall short.

I'm back to looking at the Batis 40 as I love what I get from the 25 and 85.



I don't really know your situation and requirement for lens like this. and I have zero doubt about rightful decision you made with which tool is best suit for you. At the same time, I have no doubt about my decision or others' who love this lens.

Per our FMer friend @darrellc
it is just what you have to do with certain equipment if you want the benefits, like with this lens.

I am sacrificing super fast AFC for other things I value higher personally. In this case, build, rendering and size. and I made my choice not even for lens but camera as well. I don't pick the easiest one but most enjoyable one (or suitable one for me anyway)

here is one link I want to share with FMers who like or want to know more about this lens. I don't even know this guy much, not famous anyway. This whole set was made with Sigma FP and 45mm lens and using JPG out of camera only and mostly WO. After having FP for only 3 days, I know how UN-capable this camera AF is, but I also learn how enjoyable this camera can be and how capable it will be if I try to work with it.

Do we feel images in above link are not sharp enough to appreciate or some will benefit from better AF to make them higher level artistically? The tool may not help me to capture running human or animal toward me, but it certainly help me to disappear on the street and hunting for perfect opportunity and give absolutely neutral looking images real to eyes.

Anyway, food for thought.



Dec 13, 2020 at 11:50 PM
RustyBug
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p.34 #16 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


darrellc wrote:
If you are poo pooing the AFC of the Sigma 45 and have no tolerance for that level of C-AF performance, you may want to avoid the Batis 40.

I found the Batis 40 AF poor relative to the FE 35 1.8 if it is all about getting the shot... that’s after having 3 copies (3rd one a warranty replacement from Zeiss after sending my 2nd copy in for evaluation where they confirmed AF issues), never having confidence in AF-C with eye detect at around 1-2m, and buying and testing vs FE 35/1.8 exhaustively and seeing a significant accuracy leap with
...Show more

Now, for a lens that costs twice as much, takes up three times as much volume and weighs nearly twice as much ... well, that is a bit surprising to hear. Again, expectations.

But, I'm not going to bash on Zeiss for it, like folks want to do on Sigma's Contemporary. Rather, I'm simply going to ask the question of A) Why might that be? and B) If not this one, then which one?

With B) being the more directly pragmatic question, does that put things back onto the OEM's for the respective AF-C performance ... as one might expect that the OEM on OEM would perform better than 3rd Party on OEM? Or, are there others which are even more reliable for AF-C than the OEM's offerings?

I've long felt that OEM on OEM has an advantaged opportunity (whether or not / how well they harness it is a different matter) given their knowledge of the body's algorithm's etc. Is this a case for the AF-C performance where this is rearing such an advantage for the OEM on OEM? Could that relationship with OEM be extended to why reports of the 45/2.8 seem to be working better on the L mount bodies (L Mount Alliance) than on Sony?

No actual answer here, just a few questions. What is it that we should expect of Sigma on Sony, or Zeiss on Sony or Sony on Sony? Same goes for Sigma on Sigma, Sigma on Panny, Sigma on Leica vs. OEM on OEM, vs. cross OEM (L Mount Alliance). I know that there is a variance between Oly on Panny and Panny on Oly vs. OEM on OEM when it comes to certain IS performance issues. Is the programming communication between non-OEM vs. OEM on OEM the weak link where speed of information exchange / feedback loop (IS, AF-C, etc.), or is it in the choice of motors (type, quantity) from different mfrs?

Rendering aside ... if your life depended on it (for those who demand such AF-C performance), which lens / body combination offers the most reliable AF-C performance ... no excuses (wallet, weight, size)? Bearing in mind that this is x-posted in Sony / Alt, likely not referring to Canon, Nikon, Fuji, etc. ... but, then again, if your life depended on it ... what's would it be?





Edited on Dec 14, 2020 at 05:27 AM · View previous versions



Dec 14, 2020 at 05:03 AM
JVan_02
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p.34 #17 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


Since there's some discussion of 40 CF and I think by and large I have a good amount of experience on the issue I'll say that it's got a lesser version of the 45 C's problems, excacerbated by Zeiss' software meddling. I use an α7 III.

To clarify: in good lighting (bright daylight, sufficient indoor lighting) I have practically no problems using the lens exactly how I wish too until the reproduction ratio/magnification becomes sufficiently high that DoF is under a cm... maybe 35cm, and closer. At this point, focus is only reliable on stationary objects. At a certain point (with regards to lighting getting worse), AF becomes less reliable in the 0.65-.24m range due to two factors. The first is uncorrected SA showing up in that range (almost certainly why Zeiss implemented their forced aperture behavior). The second is Zeiss' aperture behavior essentially interrupting the AF process. This becomes especially problematic in worse lighting, due to both lower contrast exacerbating SA based focus shift and the fact that lower light stresses mirrorless PDAF more than DSLR PDAF (I don't know why this is the issue, just something I've noticed).

This can be somewhat alleviated by stopping down to 2.5 as lighting gets worse. This aperture is where there are only the faintest amounts of SA and it stops Zeiss' software from interrupting the AF process. At this point, your biggest barriers become the same as any lens at 2.5: the -EV AF rating of your camera. At some point, contrast and lighting in the image are simply too poor to focus properly for your setup. The focus limiter actually comes in handy here: it's very unusual for a standard lens, and remembering to engage with it gives the opportunity to discard some AF calculations and make AF more efficient. In the same vein, spot focusing can eliminate a lot of AF calculations and further improve performance.

It's definitely not the almost completely brainless approach achieved by newer Sony lenses like the 20 G (and I imagine the 35 1.8 FE) and admittedly, it's probably not as hands off as say the Sigma 35mm f2. But the 40 gets a bit worse reputation than it deserves, imo. As a last point of info, I'd say the AF motor is exceptionally speedy: cameralabs clocked the average focusing time at 0.35 seconds. For reference, the 24 GM in the same test clocked 0.5 seconds.

Edited on Dec 14, 2020 at 05:32 AM · View previous versions



Dec 14, 2020 at 05:25 AM
httivals
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p.34 #18 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


I agree 100% with Rusty Bug that having open mount specs doesn't necessarily even the playing field for OEM vs. non-OEM autofocus performance. Presumably Sony has the world's best experts for how to best design autofocus performance to work with Sony cameras. Also, Sony is only designing for one mount. When Sigma designs it's lenses, for example, it's typically to work on different mounts.


Dec 14, 2020 at 05:28 AM
RustyBug
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p.34 #19 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


JVan_02 wrote:
Since there's some discussion of 40 CF and I think by and large I have a good amount of experience on the issue I'll say that it's got a lesser version of the 45 C's problems, excacerbated by Zeiss' software meddling. I use an α7 III.

To clarify: in good lighting (bright daylight, sufficient indoor lighting) I have practically no problems using the lens exactly how I wish too until the reproduction ratio/magnification becomes sufficiently high that DoF is under a CM... maybe 35cm, out. At this point, focus is only reliable on stationary objects. At a certain point, AF becomes
...Show more

So, is that to simply suggest that for both the Sigma and the Zeiss ... the design choice for the close focusing capability comes with the attributes of uncorrected SA, thus the root of problems for AF-C on PDAF? It does sound like a familiar story with my Tammy 45/1.8 (also CF). And, is that what is to be expected from such CF / SA designs for PDAF (vs. CDAF)?




Edited on Dec 14, 2020 at 05:37 AM · View previous versions



Dec 14, 2020 at 05:32 AM
j4nu
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p.34 #20 · Pre-order: Sigma 24mm f/3.5, 35mm f/2 and 65mm f/2 DG DN lenses


RustyBug wrote:
Now, for a lens that costs twice as much, takes up three times as much volume and weighs nearly twice as much ... well, that is a bit surprising to hear. Again, expectations.

But, I'm not going to bash on Zeiss for it, like folks want to do on Sigma's Contemporary. Rather, I'm simply going to ask the question of A) Why might that be? and B) If not this one, then which one?

With B) being the more directly pragmatic question, does that put things back onto the OEM's for the respective AF-C performance ... as one might expect that the
...Show more

I think a better example of the Contemporary line is Sigma 100-400. It has a very fast AF, but most reviews agree it's a bit worse than the GM.
Sigma 45mm is really one of its kind, both in rendering and AF, so I'll really be surprised if any of the three new lenses exhibits the same character...



Dec 14, 2020 at 05:36 AM
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