p.5 #1 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
osv2 wrote:
you and geoff are posting brand mis-generalizations that are poorly informed and not logical.
you guys don't shoots sports, so neither of you understands that the a9ii upgrades are largely targeted at shooters who need to get jpegs out asap, for example with the best voice annotation capability on the market, aka at the olympics.
a9ii is for people who need the best light flicker control of any camera on the market, no other camera has that ability even with the mechanical shutter, and sony did it with the electronic shutter... claiming that market-leading capabilities like those don't "advance the narrative" is not true.
the a7siii is a *huge* step up from the a7sii, it's one of the best video-focused milc bodies on the market, far superior to the crippled r5 melt-down nightmare... canon failed with video performance on the r5, while sony hit a home run with the a7siii.
the only reason that canon "came on strong" is because they were coming from eos-r/eos-rp junk cameras, lol... canon still doesn't have sensor readout speeds that are anywhere near what the a9/a9ii has. ...Show more →
You are correct that I don't shoot sports. I'm fairly certain you are incorrect about armd but I'll let him speak for himself on that point.
I totally understand what and what not the A9II was/is. I understood from the beginning what they were trying to do with the update. I realize the features they were adding to satisfy sports shooters requests in anticipation of getting as many A9II's on the sidelines of the Olympics (RIP) and other sporting events.
But nothing about the A9II was innovative IMO. Adding features that were already in other sports cameras is not innovative. It was needed and a good idea.
As I mentioned way back in pg1post2, I value ergonomics and the A9II greatly improved on those. I was also tempted by the improved processor and hoping that would allow an Animal Eye-AF FW update without having to buy an A9III (sort of like my A9 got those huge 5.0/6.0 updates right near the end). In the end I like my A9II better than my A9. If someone has the budget for the II over the I then I'd tell them to go that way. I wasn't going to get an A9II until Sony actually released some sort of super FW update. But I got a deal that made my net upgrade cost about $1100 CAD or $814 USD so for that cost I was happy to pay for the ergo and cross-fingers for the AF update. I also like that the A9II is a little more responsive bringing up the EVF to full power and the dual fast slots.
I still think it was telling that the A9II was the first Sony camera to not get a hands-on press event for the YT crowd (pre-covid)...that to me told the entire story of what the A9II was all about.
I agree that the A7SIII is a way better video camera than the R5. If I was at all serious about video I'd be getting one over an R5. I've never touched the video button on the R5...in fact I programmed it to do something else that was more useful for my stills shooting
And yes the R5 hasn't matched the A9/IIs readout speed. As I say, 2017 was truly innovative.
p.5 #2 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
osv2 wrote:
you and geoff are posting brand mis-generalizations that are poorly informed and not logical.
you guys don't shoots sports, so neither of you understands that the a9ii upgrades are largely targeted at shooters who need to get jpegs out asap, for example with the best voice annotation capability on the market, aka at the olympics.
a9ii is for people who need the best light flicker control of any camera on the market, no other camera has that ability even with the mechanical shutter, and sony did it with the electronic shutter... claiming that market-leading capabilities like those don't "advance the narrative" is not true. ...Show more →
And the OP did not say he needed "......to get jpegs out asap, for example with the best voice annotation capability on the market, aka at the olympics."
Nor did he ask anything about the A9II.
Oct 07, 2020 at 03:57 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.5 #3 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
Imagemaster wrote:
And the OP did not say he needed "......to get jpegs out asap, for example with the best voice annotation capability on the market, aka at the olympics."
Nor did he ask anything about the A9II.
the o.p. specifically stated: "I shoot and enjoy everything including some sports at a semi-pro level... AF is a big deal for me"
by default that means a9/a9ii, his post asking about a7riv/r5 to shoot sports was the wrong tools for the job... that's obvious to anyone who shoots sports.
the point about a9ii innovations was in direct response to false generalizations by other posters, both of whom made brand claims that had nothing to do with what the o.p. said... it's funny how you didn't pull your little thread police routine on what they said.
p.5 #4 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
osv2 wrote:
by default that means a9/a9ii, his post asking about a7riv/r5 to shoot sports was the wrong tools for the job... that's obvious to anyone who shoots sports.
the point about a9ii innovations was in direct response to false generalizations by other posters, both of whom made brand claims that had nothing to do with what the o.p. said... it's funny how you didn't pull your little thread police routine on what they said.
blah, blah, blah ...... by default ..... wrong tools for the job ..... obvious to anyone who shoot sports ..... blah, blah, blah, in your opinion.
Your little know-it-all routine for what everyone else knows is so pathetic, that like others, off you go to HIDE ME.
Oct 07, 2020 at 04:27 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.5 #5 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
arbitrage wrote:
You are correct that I don't shoot sports. I'm fairly certain you are incorrect about armd but I'll let him speak for himself on that point.
I totally understand what and what not the A9II was/is. I understood from the beginning what they were trying to do with the update. I realize the features they were adding to satisfy sports shooters requests in anticipation of getting as many A9II's on the sidelines of the Olympics (RIP) and other sporting events.
But nothing about the A9II was innovative IMO. Adding features that were already in other sports cameras is not innovative.
i just posted an example of an a9ii innovation that no other camera has, so your claim that the a9ii is not innovative is wrong.
it reminds me of how you tried to argue with several of us that frame duplication in the r5 evf was just as good as the blackout-free video feed in the a9/a9ii evf.
so once again... the a9ii flicker reduction capability includes a wide spectrum of frequencies that afaik have never been implemented by any camera... i'd suggest that you find the snapsy post on this forum that details it all.
p.5 #6 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
Imagemaster wrote:
blah, blah, blah ...... by default ..... wrong tools for the job ..... obvious to anyone who shoot sports ..... blah, blah, blah, in your opinion.
Your little know-it-all routine for what everyone else knows is so pathetic, that like others, off you go to HIDE ME.
great, i won't have to listen to your thread police drivel
p.5 #7 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
arbitrage wrote:
But nothing about the A9II was innovative IMO. Adding features that were already in other sports cameras is not innovative. It was needed and a good idea.
.
By your standard of innovation, is there anything innovative in the R5 / R6?
Oct 07, 2020 at 05:03 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.5 #8 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
p.5 #10 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
chez wrote:
By your standard of innovation, is there anything innovative in the R5 / R6?
Not really. The only impressive thing is the Bird Eye-AF and being able to pass 45MP RAW files at 20FPS. But neither of those are innovative. Sony already had Bird Eye-AF working, just not working well so Canon has just moved the bar a little higher. Sony will easily respond and match that sometime in the next year...I have no doubt about that. Moving more data is just evolution so that isn't innovation either. 8K is again just moving data. Everyone will be doing it by next year.
Seriously I haven't seen a single thing I'd call truly innovative in the MILC industry since the A9's sensor and the features that allowed. True innovation sometimes isn't even realized until well after the fact. 3.5 years later and we still haven't seen anything quite like the A9.
p.5 #11 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
osv2 wrote:
i just posted an example of an a9ii innovation that no other camera has, so your claim that the a9ii is not innovative is wrong.
it reminds me of how you tried to argue with several of us that frame duplication in the r5 evf was just as good as the blackout-free video feed in the a9/a9ii evf.
so once again... the a9ii flicker reduction capability includes a wide spectrum of frequencies that afaik have never been implemented by any camera... i'd suggest that you find the snapsy post on this forum that details it all.
The R5 EVF in ES is just as easy to shoot a fast BIF as it is on the A9 in my experience. There is no blackout, there is no lag anymore than the lag already present with the A9 because of the EVF. Also the image isn't degraded to an 80's TV feed at 20FPS like in the A9. Rudy Winston claims it isn't frame duplication but wouldn't disclose how Canon was doing it. I believe him on that because there is no way it is frame duplication after using it. At least nothing we've experienced with previous frame insertion. Since we know you have absolutely no experience with the R5's EVF I will disregard your uninformed confirmation bias driven opinion on the matter
As for the flicker feature innovation...well as I already said "IMO". You are welcome to yours.
p.5 #12 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
ShootPDX wrote:
Quite frankly, I’m offended that no one argued with my comment.
Unfortunately your well constructed comment only served to boost the confirmation bias of the Sony Fan Boys on this forum so no one would dare argue....but I'm sure you received a whack of likes for that same reason.
As I mentioned earlier I may be selling my R5 also...not quite decided yet and depends on the Z7II announcement next week.
Oct 07, 2020 at 06:43 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.5 #13 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
arbitrage wrote:
The R5 EVF in ES is just as easy to shoot a fast BIF as it is on the A9 in my experience. There is no blackout,
next you'll be claiming that there isn't any blackout with the mechanical shutter either, lol
arbitrage wrote:
there is no lag anymore than the lag already present with the A9 because of the EVF.
you fail to understand why sensor readout speed is the reason that the r5 needs frame duplication, even when it was clearly explained to you already:
"Above is true for R5 as there are 3 options
1. electronic shutter is 1/60 secs, ADC is 12 bit. Shortest possible frame freeze with a real cost in DR (m43 level DR in ES in 1DXIII) and risk of rolling shutter
2. Hi+ is 13 bit ADC and that means slower readout ==> blackout longer than freezeframe above, but without rolling shutter risk and with some DR cost
3. Hi and other shooting modes. 14 bit ADC, likely at least twice as long readout time as ES so longest blackout (this is why it looked so bad with Tony/Chelsea video, Hi+ could have shorter blackout), no DR cost." https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1653828/36
arbitrage wrote:
Also the image isn't degraded to an 80's TV feed at 20FPS like in the A9. Rudy Winston claims it isn't frame duplication but wouldn't disclose how Canon was doing it. I believe him on that because there is no way it is frame duplication after using it.
yes, r5 evf performance is better because of voodoo magic ;-)
arbitrage wrote:
As for the flicker feature innovation...well as I already said "IMO". You are welcome to yours.
we already got the part where the only thing that matters with gear is what you want.
p.5 #14 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
osv2 wrote:
next you'll be claiming that there isn't any blackout with the mechanical shutter either, lol
you fail to understand why sensor readout speed is the reason that the r5 needs frame duplication, even when it was clearly explained to you already:
"Above is true for R5 as there are 3 options
1. electronic shutter is 1/60 secs, ADC is 12 bit. Shortest possible frame freeze with a real cost in DR (m43 level DR in ES in 1DXIII) and risk of rolling shutter
2. Hi+ is 13 bit ADC and that means slower readout ==> blackout longer than freezeframe above, but without rolling shutter risk and with some DR cost
3. Hi and other shooting modes. 14 bit ADC, likely at least twice as long readout time as ES so longest blackout (this is why it looked so bad with Tony/Chelsea video, Hi+ could have shorter blackout), no DR cost." https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1653828/36
that's hilarious, next you'll be telling us that r5 evf performance is better because of voodoo magic ;-)
we already got the part where the only thing that matters with gear is what you want.
It is a documented fact that the A9 sends a lower quality feed to the EVF in order to do its magic in the EVF at 20FPS. Not to mention dropping to 12-bit at anything over 1FPS. Its a very poor EVF in general. The EVF on my Z50 looks better even though it has a million less dots.
Yes I am going to claim that the H+ MS has no blackout because all I have to do is pick it up and look through it to see that it doesn't. It is doing frame insertion, it is more difficult to track/pan a BIF but at least better than what the A7RIV does in H+.
And again, maybe pick up an R5 and see for yourself before making all these claims. I'm not here to sell you an R5. I don't even know if I'm keeping mine. I do know I'm keeping my A9II though...that is for sure....
Oct 07, 2020 at 07:10 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.5 #15 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
arbitrage wrote:
It is a documented fact that the A9 sends a lower quality feed to the EVF in order to do its magic in the EVF at 20FPS. Not to mention dropping to 12-bit at anything over 1FPS. Its a very poor EVF in general. The EVF on my Z50 looks better even though it has a million less dots.
z50 evf is a .39" panel, vs. the a9 .5" panel, so that is not logical.
it's not even a good effort, lol
arbitrage wrote:
Yes I am going to claim that the H+ MS has no blackout because all I have to do is pick it up and look through it to see that it doesn't. It is doing frame insertion, it is more difficult to track/pan a BIF but at least better than what the A7RIV does in H+.
is that an admission that the r5 is doing frame duplication, but only in one shooting mode?
p.5 #16 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
The R5 EVF has noticeably more lag than the a9ii. For sure.
arbitrage wrote:
The R5 EVF in ES is just as easy to shoot a fast BIF as it is on the A9 in my experience. There is no blackout, there is no lag anymore than the lag already present with the A9 because of the EVF. Also the image isn't degraded to an 80's TV feed at 20FPS like in the A9. Rudy Winston claims it isn't frame duplication but wouldn't disclose how Canon was doing it. I believe him on that because there is no way it is frame duplication after using it. At least nothing we've experienced with previous frame insertion. Since we know you have absolutely no experience with the R5's EVF I will disregard your uninformed confirmation bias driven opinion on the matter
As for the flicker feature innovation...well as I already said "IMO". You are welcome to yours....Show more →
p.5 #18 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
ShootPDX wrote:
The R5 EVF has noticeably more lag than the a9ii. For sure.
I'm sure it does but all I'm seeing is that I can still easily follow a fast BIF without issue. I don't feel I'm getting behind on a panning pass like I do with MS and all other MILCs. I certainly feel the A9 still has some special sauce for acquiring fast BIF and stickiness on them once properly acquired. AF hit rate seems better for those subjects with the A9 vs R5. But I certainly still need a lot more time on the R5 with more fast subjects.
