p.3 #1 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
The projection is strong with this one. And I'm out. Multiple people with actual experience with the equipment in question, but preconceived notions win out. Hide Me has never been so welcome.
p.3 #2 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
osv2 wrote:
i posted a list of facts that are backed up with links, directly relevant to the sports shooting/af scenario that the o.p. asked about.
not sure why some people who bought canon are having problems dealing with actual facts? perhaps it's because they are looking for positive reinforcement to justify the huge financial expenditures that they just made ;-)
-Confirmation bias is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their existing beliefs or hypotheses.
-Confirmation bias happens when a person gives more weight to evidence that confirms their beliefs and undervalues evidence that could disprove it.
-People display this bias when they gather or recall information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way.
arbitrage wrote:
where did the A9II come up with its extra 1/2 stop of DR at ISO 100?
per the link above: "...as we’ve seen the new model adopts a different approach to processing, using a change in sensitivity behavior both to improve color discrimination and to widen dynamic range at higher ISOs."
more detailed explanation below:
arbitrage wrote:
...If they are the same sensor as you are claiming then I guess Sony must have taken a page from Canon's book before Canon even published the book and threw in some of that sneaky low-ISO NR to boost DR scores.
is that confirmation bias for canon getting in the way? ;-)
canon sensors have always been primitive in comparison to what sony does, and that is still the case with r5/r6... the $3900 r5 doesn't even have a bsi sensor? seriously?
of course as Jman13 just proved with his false claims, people have been trying to cast disparity on the a9 ever since the a9ii came out:
"I've seen statements by some that the a9II has better high-ISO DR/ lower high-ISO noise than the a9. I don't find much evidence for that. I've just completed a set of photon transfer curves on the a9II, and I can't see much, if any difference between it and the a9 at high ISO's. At low ISO's the a9II appears a bit less noisy:" https://blog.kasson.com/a9ii/sony-a9ii-rn-fwc-and-pdr/
p.3 #5 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
Jman13 wrote:
The projection is strong with this one. And I'm out. Multiple people with actual experience with the equipment in question, but preconceived notions win out. Hide Me has never been so welcome.
And the OP asked about the R5, so we didn’t need the R6 brought into the discussion.
p.3 #6 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
I apologize for that, however autofocus wise, they are effectively identical from my understanding, and also have the same burst rates, etc, so I thought it would add another data point.
Imagemaster wrote:
And the OP asked about the R5, so we didn’t need the R6 brought into the discussion.
p.3 #7 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
I find this video pretty much sums it up for me:
It actually compares the R5 to A7r iii which is my camera. The most important advantage (for me) is the better user interface of R5 thanks to its complete and thorough touch interface. The comparison doesn't talk about the real time AF tracking of R5 (which A7r iii lacks). Since I plan to do more video in the near future, that is also an advantage over A7r iii. It seems Canon has managed to narrow the gap in IQ. Regarding the colors, I prefer the colors of A7r iii over R5 ( from what I see in the video). However, I almost always shoot raw when it matters to me and, I do color grade my photos so I don't care about the better colors of Sony.
I don't have much problem with the ergonomics of the Sony cameras except some minor issues that can be a little annoying but nothing serious. I do like the aesthetics of Canon mirrorless cameras over the Sony's but I don't consider this parameter a valid reason for choosing a system. Is there any camera bodies out there that look uglier than the Sony FF cameras, lol? Fuji, Olympus, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Leica: they all look better than Sony. A7c is nice but I am really disappointed with Sony on this camera (read above when I said how much UI matters to me).
Other advantages: real time AF tracking, better IBIS probably better built quality. overheating is probably a non issue for me because it mostly happens in 8K and maybe in hi bitrate 4K. I don't care about 8K at all since I don't think I will ever shoot in 8K in the next ten years or so.
What holds me back from switching to Canon considering that UI is such an important factor for me? UI was the only reason I upgraded from A7r ii to A7r iii. Even when I upgraded from Nex 5n to A6000 and then to full frame, one of the main reasons was the improvements in the UI. I actually can switch my entire ecosystem just for the UI because the joy and pleasing experience of using a camera lies to a large extent in its UI.
All that said, for my current needs, A7r iii is serving me very well. R5 is quite expensive right now. I have to double the money I earn from selling my used A7r iii to get an R5. Even more importantly, the Canon's top glass are bigger, heavier and more expensive than the Sony's top glass (most of the time and for the lenses that matter to me). I already have mixed feelings about the size and weight of my current Sony's glass. I certainly don't want anything heavier and bigger than these.
Last but not least, the lens ecosystem in the Sony's world is so much better now. There are so many third party option to meet many different needs whether one want a big heavy top glass or a compact light size and inexpensive lens. Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron, Smayang/Rokinon, Tokina Voghtlander, ...; this list continues.
p.3 #9 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
arbitrage wrote:
Those are great points about confirmation bias...you must have been looking in the mirror when you wrote that
No, he was not looking in the mirror when he was talking about confirmation bias. He had other people in mind. Maybe he has confirmation bias, maybe not. maybe you have it, maybe not. I cannot be sure because I don't know either of you. I know for sure I don't believe in your attestation of Canon colors being better than Sony. You have yet to demonstrate any evidence whatsoever to us. When I shoot Sony, I don't even know if my pinky ever touches the camera or not. It is that unimportant to me. Of course, your comparison has some valid points. I do appreciate the effort you put into writing it for the audience here. Regarding the confirmation bias: does it matter? It is generally improvable. Even when someone proves it, the audience still choose to agree or disagree based on their confirmation bias. So it doesn't make the discussion any better or more corrected.
p.3 #11 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
Jochenb wrote:
If there's one thing I've learned on FM these last couple of months is that it's REALLY difficult (read: impossible) for some of the Sony users here to accept that Canon has made 2 super nice stills shooting cameras.
The criticism is hilarious at times.
Now that I've also had the chance to try an R6 I agree with Jman. The AF really is better than that of the A7R IV and I also feel it's not that far from my A9.
BTW: I ask myself when Sony is finally going to put some decent LCD screens on their cameras? They always look horribly cheap compared to the one on the Canons. ...Show more →
I think the Sony guys generally have been pretty fair about the Canon R5/R6 cameras. Much more that some other brand gear forums. Some of the best and most frequent contributors to the Sony forums are posting in this thread. The Sony shooters seem pretty confident in their system and are not threatened by advances in other brands. Most seem to think that the new Canons are excellent cameras. A number have decided to add or switch to the Canon cameras. I don't see other Sony shooters getting upset at this, or suggesting they should no longer post in the Sony forum.
The Canons seem to me to be on par with the Sonys in some areas, leading in some, and a little behind in others. That is a great thing. That will push Sony into producing even better cameras in the future. We should all be happy there are more choices. Also that our fellow FM members are able to buy a camera that suits them best. Which brand of camera they settle on should not matter, or be a point to criticize. We are a community that shares a common interest.
p.3 #12 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
I started out as a Canon shooter in the early 2010s but got fed up by their meaningless subpar camera iterations and switched to Sony. After that I have been a big fan of what Sony has been doing with full frame mirrorless up until the A9. After that however they have not released a camera which would offer a real improvement to my shooting, their recent camera releases now start to remind me of Canon in the 2010s. Also Sony lens development appear to almost have stopped, they release very few lenses now.
In 2020 Canon has finally released a camera which would improve my shooting, the first Canon camera I would want since I got my 1DX many years ago. Animal detection focus and the combination of 45MP and 20FPS would give me new capabilities and simplify my life taking photos. I regret trading in my 300 IS II when I bought the 400 GM, otherwise I would temped to pick up a R5 for testing.
I am looking forward to see how Sony responds in the future, I am hoping the R5 will get them out of the hibernation and making them release something great soon. Also looking forward to see if Canon makes a R1 and if so what it will do. Also interested to see if Canon comes out with some proper RF super telephotos and if so what specs they will have.
These are interesting times in the camera world, if Canon hadn't released the R5 and the R6 I think we would only be seeing boring camera releases like the A7C. This competition might be just what we need.
p.3 #13 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
randomguy wrote:
I started out as a Canon shooter in the early 2010s but got fed up by their meaningless subpar camera iterations and switched to Sony. After that I have been a big fan of what Sony has been doing with full frame mirrorless up until the A9. After that however they have not released a camera which would offer a real improvement to my shooting, their recent camera releases now start to remind me of Canon in the 2010s. Also Sony lens development appear to almost have stopped, they release very few lenses now.
In 2020 Canon has finally released a camera which would improve my shooting, the first Canon camera I would want since I got my 1DX many years ago. Animal detection focus and the combination of 45MP and 20FPS would give me new capabilities and simplify my life taking photos. I regret trading in my 300 IS II when I bought the 400 GM, otherwise I would temped to pick up a R5 for testing.
I am looking forward to see how Sony responds in the future, I am hoping the R5 will get them out of the hibernation and making them release something great soon. Also looking forward to see if Canon makes a R1 and if so what it will do. Also interested to see if Canon comes out with some proper RF super telephotos and if so what specs they will have.
These are interesting times in the camera world, if Canon hadn't released the R5 and the R6 I think we would only be seeing boring camera releases like the A7C. This competition might be just what we need....Show more →
For sure Sony will respond. What we have now is the typical leap-frogging we observed with Canikon for quite some time. Every new iteration will be followed by an answer from he direct competitor.
My impression is that people got much more impatient now compared to a decade ago, now wanting new releases every year with big improvements.
Not long ago, Thom Hogan usually said one should only get odd numbered Dx flagship cameras, due to mostly incremental updates in between. Now due to AI and software updates could be more significant than before.
Sony is leader in sensors and has the stacked sensor in FF, which nobody can match in capabilities at the moment. Future models with it will rise the bar, but this will come at a cost, as those sensors are very expensive to produce.
Regarding the A7c: Interestingly many of my friends, not deep into photography, are finding it very interesting and not boring at all. Only enthusiasts are very critical in my opinion.
p.3 #15 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
Holger wrote:
...
Sony is leader in sensors and has the stacked sensor in FF, which nobody can match in capabilities at the moment. Future models with it will rise the bar, but this will come at a cost, as those sensors are very expensive to produce.....
I just want to make a point here. It doesn't matter if a sensor is listed as FSI, BSI or Stacked on the spec sheet. What matters is the performance. Canon hasn't said if their sensors are BSI or whatever but still the R5 sensor reads out up to 2.5 times faster than the A7RIV sensor and almost twice as fast as the A7R III sensor and offers as good low light performance. And without the low ISO noise reduction it wouldn't be more than like 0.5 stops behind in DR according to Bill Claff which is insignificant.
If Canon can make a R1 sensor that matches or exceeds the A9 sensor in performance it doesn't matter if they don't use BSI or stacking. You are right about the price though, it will be expensive either way, but how much of the end user price of those cameras does the sensor really cost?
What annoys me about camera companies is that they make expensive devices costing the end user 3-6k $ and in those devices they cut costs by a few $ by using crappy screens, EVFs, WiFi and stuff like that.
p.3 #16 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
randomguy wrote:
I just want to make a point here. It doesn't matter if a sensor is listed as FSI, BSI or Stacked on the spec sheet. What matters is the performance. Canon hasn't said if their sensors are BSI or whatever but still the R5 sensor reads out up to 2.5 times faster than the A7RIV sensor and almost twice as fast as the A7R III sensor and offers as good low light performance. And without the low ISO noise reduction it wouldn't be more than like 0.5 stops behind in DR according to Bill Claff which is insignificant.
If Canon can make a R1 sensor that matches or exceeds the A9 sensor in performance it doesn't matter if they don't use BSI or stacking. You are right about the price though, it will be expensive either way, but how much of the end user price of those cameras does the sensor really cost?
What annoys me about camera companies is that they make expensive devices costing the end user 3-6k $ and in those devices they cut costs by a few $ by using crappy screens, EVFs, WiFi and stuff like that. ...Show more →
Iff (mathematical if) they can provide that, yes, it wouldn't matter for us users whether it is stacked or not. The A7riv and A7riii aren't stacked. But I doubt that the super fast readout and lower power consumption is possible in this price segment without using stacked sensor technology without getting the drawbacks of the R5/R6 sensors (look at the drop in DR when in E-shutter mode). We will see, though, maybe Canon surprises us.
Here a tutorial from Sony about stacked Cmos sensors and possibility to use it with global shutter:
p.3 #17 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
freaklikeme wrote:
Yeah, Sony. You haven't done anything for five minutes. What's wrong with you?
***DISCLAIMER** My opinions are my opinions based on my use case. If you don't care to read them scroll past or better yet Hide me.
The last time Sony did anything worthwhile was April 19, 2017. Really since then they've been like a deer caught in the headlights. This was nailed home on Oct 3, 2019 and continues to this day. There was a slight glimmer of hope on Jan 16, 2019 but ultimately that fell flat.
I sure hope the R5 has woke them up. If the Z9 rumour is even close to true they are going to get hit hard from two sides now.
p.3 #18 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
arbitrage wrote:
The last time Sony did anything worthwhile was April 19, 2017. Really since then they've been like a deer caught in the headlights. This was nailed home on Oct 3, 2019 and continues to this day. There was a slight glimmer of hope on Jan 16, 2019 but ultimately that fell flat.
I sure hope the R5 has woke them up. If the Z9 rumour is even close to true they are going to get hit hard from two sides now.
Rumors are rumors, even though some aspects become reality for every release. We already have rumors for a 50Mp 8k a9iii. I think you refer to bodies? As many here say a lot of times: competition is good and it helps Sony/Canon/Nikon to innovate.
"There was a slight glimmer of hope on Jan 16, 2019 but ultimately that fell flat." For you maybe. For others not so much. I think it is mostly BIF-shooters waiting for high MP A9-type of cameras. For me the A9ii was a great update.
The interesting question: If the Z9 is better than the r5, how many will switch from Canon to Nikon? We will probably see the circle of GAS: People switching from one camera manufacturer to the other whenever a new high-end flagship model is introduced ;-)
p.3 #19 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
For the "surely Sony will respond" crowd, don't forget they've already released a camera with their new flippy screen and revised menu with touch controls, undoubtedly pushed in that directly by Canon's current bodies.
p.3 #20 · Any A7RIV users tried or brought the Canon R5
Holger wrote:
Rumors are rumors, even though some aspects become reality for every release. We already have rumors for a 50Mp 8k a9iii. I think you refer to bodies? As many here say a lot of times: competition is good and it helps Sony/Canon/Nikon to innovate.
"There was a slight glimmer of hope on Jan 16, 2019 but ultimately that fell flat." For you maybe. For others not so much. I think it is mostly BIF-shooters waiting for high MP A9-type of cameras. For me the A9ii was a great update.
The interesting question: If the Z9 is better than the r5, how many will switch from Canon to Nikon? We will probably see the circle of GAS: People switching from one camera manufacturer to the other whenever a new high-end flagship model is introduced ;-)...Show more →
The Jan 16, 2019 was in reference to the FW5/6, RTT, Animal-Eye AF FW update. I own the A9II also and for me it was about ergonomics (and the fact that Sony Canada Pro Support offered me a price I couldn't refuse)...but those ergonomics certainly weren't innovative.
And yes, it certainly depends on what subjects you are shooting. The RTT may have become very useful to some, the Animal Eye-AF may have become useful to pet photographers. But to me, the RTT fails way too often and the Animal Eye-AF rarely works on birds and most of the time just finds square chequered patterns that lock my focus onto something I don't want. Therefore I've deactivated Animal Eye AF and I only occasionally use RTT via Small Flex Spot for perched bird recomposing. But the traditional AF modes work a lot better for action in my use.
I have no doubt that Sony will come back with something interesting next year and I'll be here to scoop it up.
I'm actually considering letting the R5 system go if the Z7II (not even the Z9 which is too far out right now) has vastly improved AF-C and some other goodies. Letting go of my 500PF (which is the likely scenario if Oct 14th is a let down) will be a very sad day for me.
