dmcphoto wrote:
Everyone seems to be assuming that as long as the camera doesn't shut down due to temperature while shooting stills, there is no problem with stills. I've been looking, but haven't seen a thing about thermal noise in still photos, which should be of particular concern with this camera. It would be interesting to see comparisons of photos when the camera hot, but not at the point where the white indicator turns on, and when it's cold. I certainly wouldn't buy one until that's available.
Exactly my concern as I do quite a bit of long exposure photography.
dmcphoto wrote:
This link, sent to me by another member, proved useful. The reviewer bought the camera, but if you're doing long exposures you should definitely be aware of this.
"Any exposure of more than two minutes will be unusable for me without Long Exposure NR active."
I am absolutely ignorant to these kind of long exposures and how image noise introduces itself, but having the sensor exposed for more than two minutes doesn't seem like a very common thing. Many astro shooters are using it in a more practical way that I've seen and image noise seems very minimal and well-controlled. The Z7 spit out a totally perfect result during an 8-second exposure? Hmmm that seems sketchy. haha
So it would seem that Canon is definitely crippling the higher end video formats, claiming the camera is overheating when in fact it has nothing to do with the temperature of the camera. By pulling out the internal battery of the camera, miraculously you can record 8k again for 20 minutes.
Yes, I know this is EOSHD but this isn't Andrew doing this test...
AJay wrote:
So it would seem that Canon is definitely crippling the higher end video formats, claiming the camera is overheating when in fact it has nothing to do with the temperature of the camera. By pulling out the internal battery of the camera, miraculously you can record 8k again for 20 minutes.
Yes, I know this is EOSHD but this isn't Andrew doing this test...
It's already been established the temperature has influence on the available recording times, including a member on Dpreview who was able to record 69 minutes of internal 8K video. It was also assumed the camera's thermal management logic was using some type of hysteresis to manage the shutdown and recovery period since the camera doesn't let you record video even after the EXIF-reported temperature returns to the same level prior to the start of recording. So it's not surprising that clearing the contents of NVRAM by pulling the battery would impact the available recording time / recovery period since firmware would rely on NVRAM to store the state variables used by the thermal algorithm.
snapsy wrote:
It's already been established the temperature has influence on the available recording times, including a member on Dpreview who was able to record 69 minutes of internal 8K video. It was also assumed the camera's thermal management logic was using some type of hysteresis to manage the shutdown and recovery period since the camera doesn't let you record video even after the EXIF-reported temperature returns to the same level prior to the start of recording. So it's not surprising that clearing the contents of NVRAM by pulling the battery would impact the available recording time / recovery period since firmware would rely on NVRAM to store the state variables used by the thermal algorithm....Show more →
Curious - is this a separate internal battery besides the normal battery that we use? Like that little button battery found on the motherboard of many a computer over the years?
Tom_W wrote:
Curious - is this a separate internal battery besides the normal battery that we use? Like that little button battery found on the motherboard of many a computer over the years?
I'm surprised there would be a coin cell in a 2020 Canon body. The vast majority of cameras now use supercaps/ultracaps instead, since they last the life of the camera. Is there a lithium coin cell shown in the images of the R5 teardown or did the user simply short the supercap?
EB-1 wrote:
I'm surprised there would be a coin cell in a 2020 Canon body. The vast majority of cameras now use supercaps/ultracaps instead, since they last the life of the camera. Is there a lithium coin cell shown in the images of the R5 teardown or did the user simply short the supercap?
EBH
Batteries are not my area of expertise although I have worked with supercaps on embedded designs before. I believe they're limited in how long they can retain their charge so they may not be suitable in a camera application since the main battery can be removed for more than a few days.
Tom_W wrote:
Curious - is this a separate internal battery besides the normal battery that we use? Like that little button battery found on the motherboard of many a computer over the years?
Yep. It's used to power the contents of NVRAM during periods when the primary battery isn't present.
snapsy wrote:
Yep. It's used to power the contents of NVRAM during periods when the primary battery isn't present.
Well, that would explain how it might have an influence on resetting some sort of timer related to the increased heating involving video.
Still, seeing that a consistent temperature of (without going back to look) something like 61-62 C should be a thermal limit too.
Or not - complicated algorithm, I guess.
Curiously, this afternoon, I spent almost 2 hours outside taking short videos of birds and such in the back yard. Late in my activities, the remaining video time stayed around 10 minutes. For the record, I was shooting at 4K 60 "standard" quality. No heat warnings at all, but my video use was intermittent, and I wasn't at a high quality level of recording.
AJay wrote:
So it would seem that Canon is definitely crippling the higher end video formats, claiming the camera is overheating when in fact it has nothing to do with the temperature of the camera. By pulling out the internal battery of the camera, miraculously you can record 8k again for 20 minutes.
Yes, I know this is EOSHD but this isn't Andrew doing this test...
The person in China did not run the camera after pulling the battery.
dmcphoto wrote:
This link, sent to me by another member, proved useful. The reviewer bought the camera, but if you're doing long exposures you should definitely be aware of this.
"Any exposure of more than two minutes will be unusable for me without Long Exposure NR active."
Visceral Image wrote:
I am absolutely ignorant to these kind of long exposures and how image noise introduces itself, but having the sensor exposed for more than two minutes doesn't seem like a very common thing. Many astro shooters are using it in a more practical way that I've seen and image noise seems very minimal and well-controlled. The Z7 spit out a totally perfect result during an 8-second exposure? Hmmm that seems sketchy. haha
Well, Canon makes the Ra, so I assume they can keep the noise under control for long exposures. I assume the R sensor uses less power.
AJay wrote:
So it would seem that Canon is definitely crippling the higher end video formats, claiming the camera is overheating when in fact it has nothing to do with the temperature of the camera. By pulling out the internal battery of the camera, miraculously you can record 8k again for 20 minutes.
Yes, I know this is EOSHD but this isn't Andrew doing this test...
snapsy wrote:
It's already been established the temperature has influence on the available recording times, including a member on Dpreview who was able to record 69 minutes of internal 8K video. It was also assumed the camera's thermal management logic was using some type of hysteresis to manage the shutdown and recovery period since the camera doesn't let you record video even after the EXIF-reported temperature returns to the same level prior to the start of recording. So it's not surprising that clearing the contents of NVRAM by pulling the battery would impact the available recording time / recovery period since firmware would rely on NVRAM to store the state variables used by the thermal algorithm. ...Show more →
Exactly. The design decision to keep the hysteresis high is there for good reason. It would not be surprising if somebody figures out how to hack the camera until it practically melts down, but that's not a good idea. It boogles the mind that people think they are somehow being cheated by Canon.
A few thoughts on the recent conspiracy of the r5 internal temp. First, has nobody considered that what the camera can do to the cards temperature might have something to do with it? Maybe a damaged card can damage the camera?
And is it also a possibility that despite the camera shutting down may more than likey be associated with an internal timer relative to the shooting mode you’re in - there may have been in house testing to substantiate an average time that led to damaging of the camera. maybe the already very hot card begins to melt, or maybe the camera it’s self gets hot enough to risk damaging the sensor? I don’t have enough experience with the inside of a camera to make a a scientifically substantiated arguement here, however
The whole “they’re trying to protect their cinema line” rhetoric doesn’t make sense when you consider the fact that the people buying the r5 more than likely weren’t considering a c300 iii or perhaps anything else in canon’s arsenal as their second choice.
I’m not defending canon personally, i am just playing devils advocate here. Doesn’t dismiss the fact that they have terrible pr
The very respected Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals wrote this comment on a discussion of the issue on DPR:
"I don't pretend to understand Canon's thinking, but my conspiracy theory goes more like "Heat breaks components, we have to warranty this thing, so let's turn it off before it gets too hot." I bet accountants had as much to do with the limits as engineers."
He also noted "Like I said, I think it's obvious there's a software 'off 'switch. That's not new, every camera made, as far as I know, has a temperature 'off' switch. We just don't know what parameters are being measured, and what the criteria for 'off' are. I'm as interested as anyone else, but we have almost zero facts and massive speculation here."
My own take: In reference to all of the EOS HD speculation. that site's theorizing is more pseudoscience than anything else. True science has peer review and reproducibility for a reason. We do not have that with the EOS HD stuff or really anyone's speculation.
dmcphoto wrote:
This link, sent to me by another member, proved useful. The reviewer bought the camera, but if you're doing long exposures you should definitely be aware of this.
"Any exposure of more than two minutes will be unusable for me without Long Exposure NR active."
Thanks for the link. I will skip the R5 because of this. It will negate the increased DR over the 5DSR much of the time for me. Hope there will be a high res R body with other priorities.
As for the Sony cameras in the comparison, be aware of the "star eater" NR algorithm that is active even when LENR is off, and it can't be disabled.
Odinsoffphotography wrote:
A few thoughts on the recent conspiracy of the r5 internal temp. First, has nobody considered that what the camera can do to the cards temperature might have something to do with it? Maybe a damaged card can damage the camera?
And is it also a possibility that despite the camera shutting down may more than likey be associated with an internal timer relative to the shooting mode you’re in - there may have been in house testing to substantiate an average time that led to damaging of the camera. maybe the already very hot card begins to melt, or maybe the camera it’s self gets hot enough to risk damaging the sensor? I don’t have enough experience with the inside of a camera to make a a scientifically substantiated arguement here, however
The whole “they’re trying to protect their cinema line” rhetoric doesn’t make sense when you consider the fact that the people buying the r5 more than likely weren’t considering a c300 iii or perhaps anything else in canon’s arsenal as their second choice.
I’m not defending canon personally, i am just playing devils advocate here. Doesn’t dismiss the fact that they have terrible pr ...Show more →
Let's say you are 100% correct in your statements. My response would be: why did they release the camera in this state then? If the camera truly has serious heat issues such that sensor damage or melted cards are a problem - that's a design issue, and needs to be corrected before releasing the camera to the public. It's especially egregious considering that basic thermal design was ignored (such as having the processor basically insulated by a PCB rather than having thermal contact with the exterior of the camera case, allowing the exterior to act as a heatsink.)
The exterioir of the camera is also getting hot. Are we so sure that a different internal thermal conducting design would change things that much?
Given the complexity of things, slight tweaks in both hardware and software could increase the availability of HQ recording a little bit. But would that actually make people happier? You still would be cut off a large part of the time.
alundeb wrote:
The exterioir of the camera is also getting hot. Are we so sure that a different internal thermal conducting design would change things that much?
Given the complexity of things, slight tweaks in both hardware and software could increase the availability of HQ recording a little bit. But would that actually make people happier? You still would be cut off a large part of the time.
Most cams get hot when recording 4k and the like, especially in the summer. Usually, however, that's because the internal heat is getting pushed out.
