RoamingScott wrote:
Most cams get hot when recording 4k and the like, especially in the summer. Usually, however, that's because the internal heat is getting pushed out.
So when the R5 exterior gets hot, that is not because the internal heat is pushed out?
alundeb wrote:
So when the R5 exterior gets hot, that is not because the internal heat is pushed out?
There are plenty of tests that show that no amount or type of exterior cooling manages to pull the internal heat out. If the inside is hot, the outside will get hot, but the heat transfer on the R5 can't keep up with the heat load.
It will be good to see how Canon addresses this. Hopefully it can be fully resolved by a firmware update. It is puzzling as to why a heatsink was not built into the base of the camera where the tripod mount is, with copper heat pipes running from hot components to the heatsink. The metal lens mount could also be used as a way to get heat out of the sensor area, but that area too appears to lack any type of way to transfer heat directly to the lens mount. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
Assuming i am 100% correct, the issue to me would be canons marketing and not the limitations of the camera. Lets say i was correct, well those timers would have been designed to ensure nothing does happen that damages the camera. The issue then would be - why market 8k for months before the camera came out with no disclaimer. Why release it with no disclaimer and then put it on a page of the user manual so subtlety?
Jman13 wrote:
Let's say you are 100% correct in your statements. My response would be: why did they release the camera in this state then? If the camera truly has serious heat issues such that sensor damage or melted cards are a problem - that's a design issue, and needs to be corrected before releasing the camera to the public. It's especially egregious considering that basic thermal design was ignored (such as having the processor basically insulated by a PCB rather than having thermal contact with the exterior of the camera case, allowing the exterior to act as a heatsink.)
There are some good reasons to buy this camera and some equally good reasons not to buy it. The balance depends on your specific use. If most of your use is still photos of things with eyes that are moving quickly, I'm sure it's a great camera. Otherwise it's necessary to look at the subtleties relative to the intended use to see whether there are sufficient improvements to justify the purchase.
Personally, I'm sure the large landscape prints I could produce from R5 files would be indistinguishable from those I can make with the 5DSR, and the 5DSR is a little better with long exposures. If I start doing lots of wildlife photography again I might reconsider the R5. As it is, the small improvements I might realize (flip screen, etc) are not worth the $5000 or so (R5, lens adapter, L-bracket, remote release, spare batteries, etc.) I'd have to spend, on top of any new RF glass.
In the end the camera is what it is. None of the speculation about what's wrong, why it's wrong, and how it might be redesigned will actually change anything.
The 8K headline is a feature that any marketing department would want to shout from the rooftops! What Canon didn’t anticipate was the negative focus from many of the internet influencers—those that wanted to have their cake and eat it too!
Odinsoffphotography wrote:
Assuming i am 100% correct, the issue to me would be canons marketing and not the limitations of the camera. Lets say i was correct, well those timers would have been designed to ensure nothing does happen that damages the camera. The issue then would be - why market 8k for months before the camera came out with no disclaimer. Why release it with no disclaimer and then put it on a page of the user manual so subtlety?
arbitrage wrote:
I don't think there is a recall coming because new shipments arrived at dealers on Monday. If Canon was really going to recall I think they would have halted shipments saving themselves money.
Nothing about the cameras is different than what Canon promised and was up front about in the beginning. The limitations are known and now with the Atmos/no card workaround the limitations are much less significant as we thought. They will likely do some FW tweaks to the warning levels like Sony did years back. I just can't see them doing a big redesign of this camera until the Mark II. And when it comes to Canon, Mark IIs are usually 4-5 years out....Show more →
Sony Northrup can explain this way better than I can:
Here's good perspective from the estimable Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals:
In the meantime, I'm waiting patiently for someone to explain to me why 8k cinema cameras have heat sinks that weigh as much as the R5, internal fans, and big ports to circulate air, but the R5 should work for just as long without any of that stuff.
Here's his total comment...he also has a few other in this discussion...
You know, if Canon has figured out a way to do 8K without any limits in a small camera this size, then I think they should be admired for a great engineering achievement. I would actually admire them more.
As to all of this lawsuit stuff...please...that's just silly, because Canon simply delivered what they said they did.
These Youtube people are as bad at speculating at law as they are at engineering...
Here is a snippet from the official Canon release, followed by what was going to be the original release text, but changed at the last minute.
Final Spec Sheet at announcement:
As the new flagship model in the EOS R series lineup, the EOS R5 camera has features that pack a punch for a variety of users who create both still and video content. It has a powerful 45-megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor and is driven by the speedy DIGIC X image processor, giving wide dynamic range as well as boasting an ISO range of 100-51,200 that is expandable up to 102,400iii. In a camera full of eye-popping features, one that really stands out is the ability to record uncropped 8K RAW internal video recording up to 29.97 fps and 8K internal video recording up to 29.97 fps in 4:2:2 10-bit Canon Log (H.265)/4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265). The camera can also record 4K internal video recording up to 119.88 fps in 4:2:2 10-bit Canon Log (H.265)/4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265). External recording in 4K is also available up to 59.94 fps. When in DCI modes, the 8K and 4K video recording is uncropped and Dual Pixel CMOS AF II is available in all 8K and 4K recording modes. Additional features of the EOS R5 camera include:
vs
Original Spec Sheet before marketing saw it:
As the new flagship model in the EOS R series lineup, the EOS R5 camera has features that pack a punch for a variety of users who create both still and video content. It has a powerful 45-megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor and is driven by the speedy DIGIC X image processor, giving wide dynamic range as well as boasting an ISO range of 100-51,200 that is expandable up to 102,400iii. In a camera full of eye-popping features, one that really stands out is the ability to record uncropped 8K RAW internal video recording up to 29.97 fps and 8K internal video recording up to 29.97 fps in 4:2:2 10-bit Canon Log (H.265)/4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265). The camera can also record 4K internal video recording up to 119.88 fps in 4:2:2 10-bit Canon Log (H.265)/4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265). External recording in 4K is also available up to 59.94 fps. To add a fun element to these new video modes, the amount of time you can record in these modes is variable depending on how much usage the camera has had from its last cold start. This adds a whimsical feel to the camera, as sometimes you may have 30 minutes of record time, sometimes as little as no time at all. If you really put the camera through its paces shooting stills and video, it may let you know it has had enough by a shutdown period, but fear not, all it takes are several hours of cool-down, and the fun begins all over again! When in DCI modes, the 8K and 4K video recording is uncropped and Dual Pixel CMOS AF II is available in all 8K and 4K recording modes. Additional features of the EOS R5 camera include:
quantumloop wrote:
Here's good perspective from the estimable Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals:
In the meantime, I'm waiting patiently for someone to explain to me why 8k cinema cameras have heat sinks that weigh as much as the R5, internal fans, and big ports to circulate air, but the R5 should work for just as long without any of that stuff.
Here's his total comment...he also has a few other in this discussion...
I can't believe this point has to be hammered home again and again.
It isn't that you only get 20 minutes of 8K recording. Or even that you only get 30 minutes of 4K HQ recording.
it's that after doing ANYTHING with the camera for a while, you lose recording time. Including just casual shooting over the course of an hour or so...then you can't use ANY of the HQ video modes, and not for a few minutes, but after turning the camera completely off for a VERY long time. Two full hours before you get the full record time back.
If it was 'hey, you're going to get 15-20 minutes of 8K recording when you shoot that, and then you need to let it cool for a few minutes" I don't think there would be that big of a deal. But "you spent 15 minutes in menus and with the monitor on checking settings, so now you only have 10 minutes of shooting rather than 20, and when that 10 minutes is up, I hope you have another camera, because you're going to need to shut down shooting for the next two hours."
I don't think anyone expected this to be an 8K or 4K 120p production video camera. However, given the hype around these modes, I don't think it was a crazy assumption to have those modes at least be USABLE for a hybrid shooter...but they aren't, because if you're shooting stills and then want to shoot a few minutes of high quality video, there's a very good chance you might be completely out of luck.
As a stills only shooter, this doesn't matter one iota to me, but I completely understand the ire Canon is getting for this.
As the new flagship model in the EOS R series lineup, the EOS R5 camera has features that pack a punch for a variety of users who create both still and video content. It has a powerful 45-megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor and is driven by the speedy DIGIC X image processor, giving wide dynamic range as well as boasting an ISO range of 100-51,200 that is expandable up to 102,400iii. In a camera full of eye-popping features, one that really stands out is the ability to record uncropped 8K RAW internal video recording up to 29.97 fps and 8K internal video recording up to 29.97 fps in 4:2:2 10-bit Canon Log (H.265)/4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265). The camera can also record 4K internal video recording up to 119.88 fps in 4:2:2 10-bit Canon Log (H.265)/4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265). External recording in 4K is also available up to 59.94 fps. To add a fun element to these new video modes, the amount of time you can record in these modes is variable depending on how much usage the camera has had from its last cold start. This adds a whimsical feel to the camera, as sometimes you may have 30 minutes of record time, sometimes as little as no time at all. If you really put the camera through its paces shooting stills and video, it may let you know it has had enough by a shutdown period, but fear not, all it takes are several hours of cool-down, and the fun begins all over again! When in DCI modes, the 8K and 4K video recording is uncropped and Dual Pixel CMOS AF II is available in all 8K and 4K recording modes. Additional features of the EOS R5 camera include: ...Show more →
We all know (or should know) that a spec sheet is just that...it's a summary of a very complex instrument for marketing purposes. We also know that Canon also released their chart of the heating limitations at launch. One of their ambassadors, Peter McKinnon, noted the heating situation in his video review released on launch day.
The bottom line is this: No one had to buy or pay for the camera without the information being made available by Canon. Canon has made an honest offer; you can accept or not.
And referencing the 8K again...to me it's better than no 8K which is what other cameras have. And as long as one knows the limits, then one can work with it in many situations.
I get the impression that many would have rather had Canon release the same camera, but only doing up to 4K 24/30 like the Sony A9II or A7R4. Canon should just offer a software upgrade that let's users hide those higher resolution modes in the menu and pretend they do not exist. Then those who want to use them can have them, and the others can feel better about not having them.
My 90d does 1080 120fps, no limit I ever hit! My R5 does not do 1080 120fps at all! Last time I tried to do 4k 120fps it said at start you have 7 minutes!?!? Did two 10 second clips and it shut down!
Odinsoffphotography wrote:
Assuming i am 100% correct, the issue to me would be canons marketing and not the limitations of the camera. Lets say i was correct, well those timers would have been designed to ensure nothing does happen that damages the camera. The issue then would be - why market 8k for months before the camera came out with no disclaimer. Why release it with no disclaimer and then put it on a page of the user manual so subtlety?
Marketing Fluff and Canon is using FUD to sell their camera's . It will be fixed when the R5 MkII will get out in 2025.
Jman13 wrote:
I can't believe this point has to be hammered home again and again.
It isn't that you only get 20 minutes of 8K recording. Or even that you only get 30 minutes of 4K HQ recording.
it's that after doing ANYTHING with the camera for a while, you lose recording time. Including just casual shooting over the course of an hour or so...then you can't use ANY of the HQ video modes, and not for a few minutes, but after turning the camera completely off for a VERY long time. Two full hours before you get the full record time back.
If it was 'hey, you're going to get 15-20 minutes of 8K recording when you shoot that, and then you need to let it cool for a few minutes" I don't think there would be that big of a deal. But "you spent 15 minutes in menus and with the monitor on checking settings, so now you only have 10 minutes of shooting rather than 20, and when that 10 minutes is up, I hope you have another camera, because you're going to need to shut down shooting for the next two hours."
I don't think anyone expected this to be an 8K or 4K 120p production video camera. However, given the hype around these modes, I don't think it was a crazy assumption to have those modes at least be USABLE for a hybrid shooter...but they aren't, because if you're shooting stills and then want to shoot a few minutes of high quality video, there's a very good chance you might be completely out of luck.
As a stills only shooter, this doesn't matter one iota to me, but I completely understand the ire Canon is getting for this. ...Show more →
You have a very valid point w.r.t hybrid shooting. As it often happens on any polarizing issue, many people are complaining about many things; the rational points get lost in rabble rousing.
We all know (or should know) that a spec sheet is just that...it's a summary of a very complex instrument for marketing purposes. We also know that Canon also released their chart of the heating limitations at launch. One of their ambassadors, Peter McKinnon, noted the heating situation in his video review released on launch day.
The bottom line is this: No one had to buy or pay for the camera without the information being made available by Canon. Canon has made an honest offer; you can accept or not.
And referencing the 8K again...to me it's better than no 8K which is what other cameras have. And as long as one knows the limits, then one can work with it in many situations.
I get the impression that many would have rather had Canon release the same camera, but only doing up to 4K 24/30 like the Sony A9II or A7R4. Canon should just offer a software upgrade that let's users hide those higher resolution modes in the menu and pretend they do not exist. Then those who want to use them can have them, and the others can feel better about not having them. ...Show more →
No Canon didn't divulge the fact that as you use the camera, you lose video time. That didn't come out until people paid and received cameras. So don't for once think that Canon was 100% above board on the facts of these two cameras. Some facts were made public, others not so much.
No matter how this is spun, there are issues here that have to be addressed, regardless of whether your opinion is that the cameras are just fine as is. Canon already has a firmware in the works to address some of these issues a little bit, so they also agree that something has to be done.
Andrew J wrote:
Sony Northrup can explain this way better than I can:
Again, the voice of reason from Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals:
"CanAnon is sure it's a plot to make buyers of $4,000 small cameras upgrade to $20,000 cameras they are never going to buy. Not saying it's not possible, just don't see it as the fastest horse."
And I will also say it again: if Canon has managed to create a small hybrid body that can do 8K for an extended period of time, then like Tony says that's a breakthrough. A really big engineering breakthrough. Anyone should be so impressed with that.
Keep in mind that Sony to control overheating in their A7SIII had to use a 12MP sensor, and of course there is no 8K or 4K HQ.
Have to add my $0.02. I received mine in the first shipment from B&H. As a hybrid shooter, prob 60% photos, 40% video, it’s completely unusable in any of the higher quality modes. I took my R5 to the Animal Kingdom at WDW today. We decided to do the Safari first which is a 25 minute ride on a bus simulating a “real” safari. It’s actually pretty cool, tons of animals to see etc. I did photos only with my EF 70-200 2.8 II. All photos were single shot, no burst shooting. By the end of the ride the heat warning was on and I could not do a single minute of 4K120. The camera said 0 minutes remaining. This was the very FIRST ride. I kept shooting photos over the course of about 6 hours. Turned the camera off completely between spurts of shooting. I never saw more than 1 minute of 4k120 available the whole day. The camera never actually felt hot and to be honest I didn’t even take that many photos. My GoPro felt WAY hotter after one ride and it kept filming 4k30 reliably.
Bottom line is I’m pretty disappointed in the camera. I travel a lot with a nonprofit, usually using 5D4 and 1DXII. I would do lots of b-roll in 1080 120fps on the 1DXII. Problem is, I don’t even have that option on the R5 at all. It’s basic 4k or nothing. I was really really hoping the R5 would be my ultimate hybrid camera and make traveling much lighter, but that’s clearly not the case. If Canon has been up front and said that shooting photos would completely cripple the better video modes, I would have maybe not bought it. The Sony is looking very good honestly. 12mp is way more than enough for all the social media stuff that we usually use my photos for. Even the fundraisers that we have done with 16x20 canvas prints would be completely fine with 12mp. Something to consider anyway.
WesleyStewart wrote:
Have to add my $0.02. I received mine in the first shipment from B&H. As a hybrid shooter, prob 60% photos, 40% video, it’s completely unusable in any of the higher quality modes. I took my R5 to the Animal Kingdom at WDW today. We decided to do the Safari first which is a 25 minute ride on a bus simulating a “real” safari. It’s actually pretty cool, tons of animals to see etc. I did photos only with my EF 70-200 2.8 II. All photos were single shot, no burst shooting. By the end of the ride the heat warning was on and I could not do a single minute of 4K120. The camera said 0 minutes remaining. This was the very FIRST ride. I kept shooting photos over the course of about 6 hours. Turned the camera off completely between spurts of shooting. I never saw more than 1 minute of 4k120 available the whole day. The camera never actually felt hot and to be honest I didn’t even take that many photos. My GoPro felt WAY hotter after one ride and it kept filming 4k30 reliably.
Bottom line is I’m pretty disappointed in the camera. I travel a lot with a nonprofit, usually using 5D4 and 1DXII. I would do lots of b-roll in 1080 120fps on the 1DXII. Problem is, I don’t even have that option on the R5 at all. It’s basic 4k or nothing. I was really really hoping the R5 would be my ultimate hybrid camera and make traveling much lighter, but that’s clearly not the case. If Canon has been up front and said that shooting photos would completely cripple the better video modes, I would have maybe not bought it. The Sony is looking very good honestly. 12mp is way more than enough for all the social media stuff that we usually use my photos for. Even the fundraisers that we have done with 16x20 canvas prints would be completely fine with 12mp. Something to consider anyway. ...Show more →
This I can see would be a problem for someone in your situation. BTW, according to rumors...and it's just rumors...there is a firmware update coming that will add that 1080 120 fps.
BTW, not to get off target, but I was thinking of a short vacation at WDW soon...how were the crowds at Animal Kingdom? They must be more reasonable than pre COVID...it must be easy to get on the rides. And I bet Disney is following the health safety protocols very well.
