ShootPDX wrote:
I assume the mechanical will have blackout.
How can it not have blackout? The sensor is literally covered by a mechanical shutter and therefore cannot read anything but darkness while the shutter is closed. The only way to show anything during this would be an artificial frame.
kezeka wrote:
How can it not have blackout? The sensor is literally covered by a mechanical shutter and therefore cannot read anything but darkness while the shutter is closed. The only way to show anything during this would be an artificial frame.
I just mean I think it will be more pronounced than most think. The 1dx iii's is quick compared to other DSLRs, despite mirror+shutter. Mirrorless may utilize the frame insertion technique, but I'm not entirely sure?
Andrew J wrote:
Again, on my M6II and 90d(in mirrorless mode) ZERO blackout as long as I keep the shutter button half pressed. Not that hard really.
This annoys me so much that I sold the R. It’s no good with shooting kids. Totally useless and frustrating. I was hoping the R5 is not like that not when the street price in Aust is about $6.5k
ShootPDX wrote:
I just mean I think it will be more pronounced than most think. The 1dx iii's is quick compared to other DSLRs, despite mirror+shutter. Mirrorless may utilize the frame insertion technique, but I'm not entirely sure?
Mirrorless cameras black out because the camera has to close the shutter and clear the data off the sensor before it can re-open the shutter to expose the sensor for the LCD or EVF to display the scene. This takes much longer than raising and lowering the mirror on a DSLR and at higher fps rates the blackout is continuous. Some mirrorless cameras disguise this by displaying the previous shot.
The sensor read time is very important to alleviate blackout time hence the Sony a9 black out free.
That's how I see it...
Pius Sullivan wrote:
This takes much longer than raising and lowering the mirror on a DSLR and at higher fps rates the blackout is continuous.
I'm pretty sure the blackout of my R is shorter than that of my 1DX2, especially in e-shutter mode, but of course I have no objective way to measure this. But the theory seems odd since if it were true then e-shutter could never be as fast as mechanical shutter, let alone faster.
Pius Sullivan wrote:
Mirrorless cameras black out because the camera has to close the shutter and clear the data off the sensor before it can re-open the shutter to expose the sensor for the LCD or EVF to display the scene. This takes much longer than raising and lowering the mirror on a DSLR and at higher fps rates the blackout is continuous. Some mirrorless cameras disguise this by displaying the previous shot.
The sensor read time is very important to alleviate blackout time hence the Sony a9 black out free.
That's how I see it...
Even a very fast sensor readout does not prevent a physical blackout of the sensor when the mechanical shutter closes. It may have less of a blackout because the sensor array can go back to reading light faster because it cleared the data from the capture quicker than most other cameras. There is still a period of time depending on your shutter where the sensor is literally covered and cannot see. I imagine Sony does a good job masking this but it’s still present. The only way to be blackout free would be to have a completely separate sensor reading out data to the viewfinder while your main sensor is covered by a mechanical shutter.
Excellent analysis. I am most concerned
about effect of blackout. Using 1DX3 for wildlife
and Canon R for stationary subjects like flowers.
One of advantages of Canon R is its low-light
performance. Canon R5 could replace 1DX3
for most wildlife situations.
kezeka wrote:
Even a very fast sensor readout does not prevent a physical blackout of the sensor when the mechanical shutter closes. It may have less of a blackout because the sensor array can go back to reading light faster because it cleared the data from the capture quicker than most other cameras. There is still a period of time depending on your shutter where the sensor is literally covered and cannot see. I imagine Sony does a good job masking this but it’s still present. The only way to be blackout free would be to have a completely separate sensor reading out data to the viewfinder while your main sensor is covered by a mechanical shutter....Show more →
kezeka wrote:
Even a very fast sensor readout does not prevent a physical blackout of the sensor when the mechanical shutter closes. It may have less of a blackout because the sensor array can go back to reading light faster because it cleared the data from the capture quicker than most other cameras. There is still a period of time depending on your shutter where the sensor is literally covered and cannot see. I imagine Sony does a good job masking this but it’s still present. The only way to be blackout free would be to have a completely separate sensor reading out data to the viewfinder while your main sensor is covered by a mechanical shutter....Show more →
Sony eliminates blackout on the a9xx by using electronic shutter, on a sensor with extremely fast sensor read speeds. So far the only sensor capable of this. With mechanical shutter there is no way to avoid it.
A fast sensor read out is not about mechanical shutter based shooting. What it does is that it frees you from having to shoot mechanically by eliminating all the cons associated with purely electronic shutter, eg rolling shutter, distortions etc. In future we are not going to have mechanical shutter. Main advantage of electronic shutter is to address the inherent blackout issue of a mirrorless camera design. It also enables silent shooting and high frame rates and cutting edge focussing capabilities directly embedded to sensor design. a9 uniquely does that but they charge a bomb for that.
kezeka wrote:
Even a very fast sensor readout does not prevent a physical blackout of the sensor when the mechanical shutter closes. It may have less of a blackout because the sensor array can go back to reading light faster because it cleared the data from the capture quicker than most other cameras. There is still a period of time depending on your shutter where the sensor is literally covered and cannot see. I imagine Sony does a good job masking this but it’s still present. The only way to be blackout free would be to have a completely separate sensor reading out data to the viewfinder while your main sensor is covered by a mechanical shutter....Show more →
Canon has no blackout during e shutter too, that isn't the issue this time. It is the mech shutter mode that we are worried about compared to the R, RP and M series. We expect the shutter blackout not the electronic part of the blackout.
TeamSpeed wrote:
Canon has no blackout during e shutter too, that isn't the issue this time. It is the mech shutter mode that we are worried about compared to the R, RP and M series. We expect the shutter blackout not the electronic part of the blackout.
I think there's some confusion happening here. The big deal with Sony's A9/A9-II is that with e-shutter a captured image can be read from the sensor so fast that the video feed from the same sensor to the EVF has no noticeable interruption. AFAIK Canon's sensor readout speed is slower, so there is a noticeable interruption in the video feed when an image is captured. To hide it (and prevent the EVF from going black), they leave the last (just captured) image displayed in the EVF. The problem is that the image is stationary so when the video feed resumes the actual subject isn't where it was anymore. It creates a "slideshow" or momentary freeze frame effect and makes it harder to track fast movement.
There will always be blackout with mechanical shutter. It's unavoidable. But with e-shutter giving a much higher frame rate it's the one to use for very fast action, hence the concentration on e-shutter blackout or "slideshow" effect, rolling shutter, etc., with moving subjects.
In my opinion they have solved it. With 20 Frames shooting capability per second imo there has to be a readout fast enough.
May be its visible in this youtube video:
At 3:23 the dog starts running and the viefinder image is fluid.
You can see it´s no video take but a highspeed shooting.The image counter in the upper left is counting down.
dmcphoto wrote:
I think there's some confusion happening here. The big deal with Sony's A9/A9-II is that with e-shutter a captured image can be read from the sensor so fast that the video feed from the same sensor to the EVF has no noticeable interruption. AFAIK Canon's sensor readout speed is slower, so there is a noticeable interruption in the video feed when an image is captured. To hide it (and prevent the EVF from going black), they leave the last (just captured) image displayed in the EVF. The problem is that the image is stationary so when the video feed resumes the actual subject isn't where it was anymore. It creates a "slideshow" or momentary freeze frame effect and makes it harder to track fast movement.
There will always be blackout with mechanical shutter. It's unavoidable. But with e-shutter giving a much higher frame rate it's the one to use for very fast action, hence the concentration on e-shutter blackout or "slideshow" effect, rolling shutter, etc., with moving subjects. ...Show more →
The trouble with the e-shutter is sure it goes to 20fps but the sensor read speed is not fast enough to minimise rolling shutter. The sensor read speed of the A9 is 1/160s vs maybe 1/60s at best for the R5, so even if you set shutter speed to 1/2000s each row of pixels is exposed for this time but the whole process from top to bottom takes 1/60s, whereas for mechanical shutter the whole sensor is exposed for only ~1/2000s, the time it takes for the front and rear shutters to scan across the sensor. For fast action then I would only use the mechanical shutter if that's the case. If the R5 had a stacked sensor or the holy grail global shutter then the e-shutter would be the only choice.
nandadevieast wrote:
A fast sensor read out is not about mechanical shutter based shooting. What it does is that it frees you from having to shoot mechanically by eliminating all the cons associated with purely electronic shutter, eg rolling shutter, distortions etc. In future we are not going to have mechanical shutter. Main advantage of electronic shutter is to address the inherent blackout issue of a mirrorless camera design. It also enables silent shooting and high frame rates and cutting edge focussing capabilities directly embedded to sensor design. a9 uniquely does that but they charge a bomb for that.
Watching the video reviews we have so far, it appears that the R5/6 shoot with electronic shutter and no blackout period or slideshow effect at all. Whether that happens in reality, I do not know. Didn’t someone also mention earlier that electronic shutter requires a compressed raw capture? I believe Sony does the same on the A9 if I recall.
kezeka wrote:
Watching the video reviews we have so far, it appears that the R5/6 shoot with electronic shutter and no blackout period or slideshow effect at all. Whether that happens in reality, I do not know. Didn’t someone also mention earlier that electronic shutter requires a compressed raw capture? I believe Sony does the same on the A9 if I recall.
I think in e-shutter it is blackout free and no noticeable slideshow effect. I’m curious how it is for in mechanical at 12FPS? The A7RIV I have does a live feed up to 8FPS ( with the obvious shutter blackout like a DSLR) but at full 10FPS it doesn’t do a live feed and makes panning along a little trickier. But I’ve actually had little problem with panning if I keep my bursts short.
I’m hoping some more thorough reviews show up soon that discuss this stuff. But according to T&C Canon didn’t give out many test units before release to non-ambassadors and as we’ve seen they have all been muzzled so far. Gordon Laing even mentions in his review that he isn’t allowed to discuss rolling shutter yet.
Ralph Conway wrote:
In my opinion they have solved it. With 20 Frames shooting capability per second imo there has to be a readout fast enough.
May be its visible in this youtube video:
At 3:23 the dog starts running and the viefinder image is fluid.
You can see it´s no video take but a highspeed shooting.The image counter in the upper left is counting down.
That’s not true. The 1DXIII’s scan speed has been measured at 1/60 and it performs exactly like the R5 at 20FPS, no blackout. But members like Pius have shown us the distortion it can produce in some RWBB shots. So none of the specs, nor any videos so far give evidence that the scan speed is any faster than the 1DXIII.
Now having shot BIF in e-shutter with scan speeds much slower than 1/60s, I can say that there are a lot of times you get away with it. I shot a GBH yesterday in e-shutter on the A7RIV and couldn’t see any noticeable funkiness in the wings upon reviewing the images. It is just a matter of deciding if you want to be taking the risk that an amazing shot ends up being ruined by distortion.
I’m actually not too bothered if it only does 1/60. That wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me. What currently comes close to a deal breaker for me is not being able to turn down e-shutter from 20 FPS. I love e-shutter and would be wanting to use it for everything possible. But I’m also experienced in the headaches of culling 20FPS photo shoots when you don’t need it.
Maybe Canon has some other way of figuring this out. We know one way of how Sony does it. We perhaps don’t even know what kind of sensor Canon is using, its new is what we know. After all they do their AF also very differently, that dual pixel thing. Unless more information comes along and the camera reaches in the hands of usual suspects, we can’t be sure.
arbitrage wrote:
I think in e-shutter it is blackout free and no noticeable slideshow effect. I’m curious how it is for in mechanical at 12FPS? The A7RIV I have does a live feed up to 8FPS ( with the obvious shutter blackout like a DSLR) but at full 10FPS it doesn’t do a live feed and makes panning along a little trickier. But I’ve actually had little problem with panning if I keep my bursts short.
I’m hoping some more thorough reviews show up soon that discuss this stuff. But according to T&C Canon didn’t give out many test units before release to non-ambassadors and as we’ve seen they have all been muzzled so far. Gordon Laing even mentions in his review that he isn’t allowed to discuss rolling shutter yet.
If it was it would be top of the spec sheet and the ambassadors wouldn’t be mentioning the risk of distortion in e-shutter.