p.14 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I've achieved critically sharp images at a full second at 12mm hand held with IBIS.
I can easily and regularly achieve tack sharp images at 12mm with a half second exposure, hand held (again with IBIS).
So the stop of extra light (if it is a T stop of 1 extra which I believe it will be), isn't useful.
It's always the rendering and to a significantly less extent the ergonomics.
p.14 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Bob_S wrote:
I've achieved critically sharp images at a full second at 12mm hand held with IBIS.
I can easily and regularly achieve tack sharp images at 12mm with a half second exposure, hand held (again with IBIS).
So the stop of extra light (if it is a T stop of 1 extra which I believe it will be), isn't useful.
It's always the rendering and to a significantly less extent the ergonomics.
Maybe we all have different criteria what critically sharp is. Even with a tripod if you are not careful you will not achieve critically sharp images at 1 second exposures.
Put it this way, would you be comfortable if detailed lens tests were done handheld at 1 second?
p.14 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
To be fair, no one has ever made a high resolution action camera. The a7rIII was the first to get close. The IV is closer, in ways. But Canon has done it better. Nice to see completion. Finally. Canon's 5DS/R just looked pokey and limited next to the a7RIII with the limited ISO and FPS. This is finally a great step for Canon.
nandadevieast wrote:
There are many roadblocks in the road to a9R. The problem is that Sony will perceive R5 to be a competitor to a7RIV. They might even think a7RIV is a better offering because it has more megapixels. They will see a hypothetical R1 as a real competitor to a9II.
This kind of marketing segmentation may not work out in real life. Canon knows that Sony doesn’t have a high res action camera and they put their feet firmly in that slot.
p.14 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
chez wrote:
Maybe we all have different criteria what critically sharp is. Even with a tripod if you are not careful you will not achieve critically sharp images at 1 second exposures.
Put it this way, would you be comfortable if detailed lens tests were done handheld at 1 second?
By critically sharp I mean I would have no more detail from the camera on sticks and timer.
12mm is so wide and 1/2 isn't low for that focal length with IBIS.
p.14 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
What's the baseline when Canon says 8 stops? Is it 1/focal length shutter speed? If so, I can handhold a 50mm at 1/50 so 8 stops would yield a 5s exposure. I find that a bit hard to believe but it would be incredible if true.
p.14 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
sbay wrote:
What's the baseline when Canon says 8 stops? Is it 1/focal length shutter speed? If so, I can handhold a 50mm at 1/50 so 8 stops would yield a 5s exposure. I find that a bit hard to believe but it would be incredible if true.
How do they measure "success"
To me success would be the same shot from a tripod. Like you, I can't believe 5 seconds. If it can do 5 seconds, why not 10?
p.14 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
TheEmrys wrote:
To be fair, no one has ever made a high resolution action camera. The a7rIII was the first to get close. The IV is closer, in ways. But Canon has done it better. Nice to see completion. Finally. Canon's 5DS/R just looked pokey and limited next to the a7RIII with the limited ISO and FPS. This is finally a great step for Canon.
To be fair, do we know how close it really is to an action camera? You really need to watch the footnotes (frame rate in normal conditions versus continuous high+ - what about blackout, max. frame rate only with lens wide open, etc., rolling shutter ...).
Maybe you are right, but I would like to see what the caveats are. That is not only related to Canon, when the A7riv came out people had a lot of expectations, too.
p.14 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
sbay wrote:
What's the baseline when Canon says 8 stops? Is it 1/focal length shutter speed? If so, I can handhold a 50mm at 1/50 so 8 stops would yield a 5s exposure. I find that a bit hard to believe but it would be incredible if true.
How do they measure "success"
In the B&H Q&A video they talked about how they tried to see who could get the longest sharp exposure – 4 seconds was the longest. Sounds like 2 seconds was easily achievable. But I would think that if you have a post, fence, or wall to brace the camera on, you could shoot well past 5 seconds. We'll have to see when it gets tested, but I'm thinking a monopod may be all you would ever need in the field, which is a bit of weight and space savings. Personally, I don't shoot with a tripod – my style isn't the long DOF from my feet to infinity, but this certainly opens up more possibilities to me now.
p.14 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I’ve seen complaints about overheating in video, but my A7R4 barely lasted 3 min shooting 4K/30 before overheating in the Texas afternoon yesterday. I’d like to know how the Canon performs in 4K/30 comparatively speaking.
"So in a nutshell here is how one should go about using the EOS R5:
If you need to reduce rolling shutter and want the most reliable performance with no heat-issues – select the non-HQ 4K modes at 30p, 25 or 24p.
If you want to improve image quality in 4K, but are happy to have the camera stop working in the middle of a shoot (potentially) – choose 4K HQ mode.
If you need RAW, you have to select 8K. There is no 4K RAW mode unfortunately. 8K has a 20 minute thermal cut off on average.
The 4K/60p and 4K/120p will always be subject to “thermal throttling” – the camera cannot sustain this speed for long periods and will cut off after 15 minutes in 120p and 30 minutes in 60p.
There are two schools of thought on the EOS R5 overheating controversy and both are correct in their own way. Canon could have played it safe and not offered 8K, 4K from 8K or 4K/120p at all. They could have kept to just the lower-power 4K modes, pixel binned from the 45 megapixel sensor in the same way the Leica SL2 and Sony A7R IV produce their 4K images. Instead, Canon felt the advantages of advertising the EOS R5 with 8K and 4K/120p outweighed the disadvantages in terms of reliability and practicality.
The other school of thought is that Canon should improve their technology so that it’s possible to do high quality 4K and 8K in a small mirrorless camera without overheating problems. The Sigma Fp has a much smaller body than the EOS R5 and manages to do internal 4K RAW recording and output 12bit 4K RAW sensor data to a USB C SSD or external recorder. This is quite some efficient sensor and processor design, especially when you consider it runs from a small Panasonic GH2 battery. It isn’t power hungry and it doesn’t get too hot. There’s also an innovative thermal design going on with the Fp, and Canon seem not to have done the same with the EOS R5.
I understand the criticism of this blog made by some Canon fans – for so long I’ve been criticising Canon for not implementing exciting video features. Now finally they have and I am still complaining. The difficult position I am in is that I couldn’t stay silent about serious limitations and let big name websites or YouTubers hype the camera while underplaying the negatives. This would have been a disservice to those who will pay a lot of money – upwards of £4000 minimum – for a camera system that is key to their professional lives. Going uninformed into such a big purchase, only to find out that it stops recording during a shoot with lost take after lost shot, is not the kind of service either EOSHD or Canon should be offering filmmakers."
Jul 12, 2020 at 02:08 PM
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p.14 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
lots of claims about 8 stops of stabilization, but i don't see where canon stipulates that they tested the r5 to cipa standards:
canon p.r. releases overseas only claim that one lens is tested per cipa standards, and it doesn't claim stops, it says "an approximate 8-step increase in shutter speed":
"...the EOS R5 and EOS R6’s innovative new IBIS technology works in tandem to deliver the world’s most powerful stabilization*.
... For example, if you pair your EOS R5 or EOS R6 with the RF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, you will benefit from an approximate 8-step increase in shutter speed.
*Using RF24-105mm F4 IS L USM (at f=105mm), according to CIPA testing standards." https://www.canon.com.au/explore/eos-r5-vs-eos-r6-comparison
p.14 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
RoamingScott wrote:
I’ve seen complaints about overheating in video, but my A7R4 barely lasted 3 min shooting 4K/30 before overheating in the Texas afternoon yesterday. I’d like to know how the Canon performs in 4K/30 comparatively speaking.
Most cameras are rated 40C or 104F max operating ambient temperature. If you shoot on 100 degree day and in a sun it is not unusual to overheat. Canon is good for 30 min at 68 F or 20 C. What it will do at 100 F is anybody's guess.
p.14 #13 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I can certainly appreciate the thoughts/opinions from both camps.
Personally though, I feel the inclusion of things like 8k are an exhibition of a shift in company mentality. What I mean specifically by this is that previously, Canon was notorious for omitting features (including simple ones that were enabled through Magic Lantern). Said omissions could have been due to not wanting to cannibalize their other products, not feeling that the hardware could support it to the level required, or simply not feeling it was necessary, etc.
This mentality was one of the main reasons I changed to multiple other company's systems. Regardless, their allowing for 8k in the R5 (at least to me) appears to be them putting some of the power back in the consumer's hands to decide how to/whether to use those features or whether they need something more instead of deciding for us that we should not be able to do it at all.
Personally, I don't see how one could reasonably (at this technological juncture) have expected to be able to do full frame 8k raw video with a sub $4000 body with these dimensions at present. To anyone who might disagree, try going with an alternative to access the ability to do full frame 8k raw video and let me know what you find.
Anywho, I for one have sold my R3 and some glass in preparation to pick up/play with one of the two new Canon bodies.
As far as my other thoughts on the new bodies, I am very excited to pick one up since it will allow me to use my Canon mount glass that I still have plenty of, with fewer caveats/restrictions on a body that is at least on paper, comparable to the features I am used to.
Side note - still keeping my A9 as neither of the new Canon bodies appears to be able to do what I can do with the A9 for stills in ES. Also, I love this Sigma 35/1.2 which is not currently available in RF mount. If/when Canon can offer what I get from the A9 + 35/1.2 in sufficient fashion, then I wouldn't be opposed to purging my Sony stuff completely. But until then, I will continue to maintain multiple systems (Sony, Fuji, Canon).
p.14 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
samosh wrote:
Most cameras are rated 40C or 104F max operating ambient temperature. If you shoot on 100 degree day and in a sun it is not unusual to overheat. Canon is good for 30 min at 68 F or 20 C. What it will do at 100 F is anybody's guess.
Yes, my iphone overheated and shut down recently while I was in a long business conversation with the phone on the dashboard in the sun in a parked air conditioned car.
"So in a nutshell here is how one should go about using the EOS R5:
If you need to reduce rolling shutter and want the most reliable performance with no heat-issues – select the non-HQ 4K modes at 30p, 25 or 24p.
If you want to improve image quality in 4K, but are happy to have the camera stop working in the middle of a shoot (potentially) – choose 4K HQ mode.
If you need RAW, you have to select 8K. There is no 4K RAW mode unfortunately. 8K has a 20 minute thermal cut off on average.
The 4K/60p and 4K/120p will always be subject to “thermal throttling” – the camera cannot sustain this speed for long periods and will cut off after 15 minutes in 120p and 30 minutes in 60p.
There are two schools of thought on the EOS R5 overheating controversy and both are correct in their own way. Canon could have played it safe and not offered 8K, 4K from 8K or 4K/120p at all. They could have kept to just the lower-power 4K modes, pixel binned from the 45 megapixel sensor in the same way the Leica SL2 and Sony A7R IV produce their 4K images. Instead, Canon felt the advantages of advertising the EOS R5 with 8K and 4K/120p outweighed the disadvantages in terms of reliability and practicality.
The other school of thought is that Canon should improve their technology so that it’s possible to do high quality 4K and 8K in a small mirrorless camera without overheating problems. The Sigma Fp has a much smaller body than the EOS R5 and manages to do internal 4K RAW recording and output 12bit 4K RAW sensor data to a USB C SSD or external recorder. This is quite some efficient sensor and processor design, especially when you consider it runs from a small Panasonic GH2 battery. It isn’t power hungry and it doesn’t get too hot. There’s also an innovative thermal design going on with the Fp, and Canon seem not to have done the same with the EOS R5.
I understand the criticism of this blog made by some Canon fans – for so long I’ve been criticising Canon for not implementing exciting video features. Now finally they have and I am still complaining. The difficult position I am in is that I couldn’t stay silent about serious limitations and let big name websites or YouTubers hype the camera while underplaying the negatives. This would have been a disservice to those who will pay a lot of money – upwards of £4000 minimum – for a camera system that is key to their professional lives. Going uninformed into such a big purchase, only to find out that it stops recording during a shoot with lost take after lost shot, is not the kind of service either EOSHD or Canon should be offering filmmakers."...Show more →
I'm glad they included all the higher-end options. I'd rather have the ability to choose to record sub-20 or sub-15-minute videos at higher res if I want to. I especially don't understand the opinion that 4K/120 shouldn't have been included. If you're using that for slow motion, don't you take short bursts since it stretches out so far on the timeline once you slow it down?
I'm glad to see Canon including all they can and then giving us the choice as to if and how to use it. If they'd played it safe, we'd have another release everyone was calling "feature-limited" and Canon would be criticized for "finally just catching up with everyone else".
The opinion to play it safe sounds like the old Canon management style that is gone. I'm glad it's gone.
p.14 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
highdesertmesa wrote:
In the B&H Q&A video they talked about how they tried to see who could get the longest sharp exposure – 4 seconds was the longest. Sounds like 2 seconds was easily achievable. But I would think that if you have a post, fence, or wall to brace the camera on, you could shoot well past 5 seconds. We'll have to see when it gets tested, but I'm thinking a monopod may be all you would ever need in the field, which is a bit of weight and space savings. Personally, I don't shoot with a tripod – my style isn't the long DOF from my feet to infinity, but this certainly opens up more possibilities to me now....Show more →
For travel, I think this would be amazing, enough so that I would switch back to canon. But I don't do much travel photography anymore and I'm landscapes only now. I do so much stacking and blending that I'm pretty much always on a tripod.
p.14 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
sbay wrote:
For travel, I think this would be amazing, enough so that I would switch back to canon. But I don't do much travel photography anymore and I'm landscapes only now. I do so much stacking and blending that I'm pretty much always on a tripod.
Since Canon already has the multi-shot HDR for JPEG, I wonder why they don't extend that to RAW? They could take the bracketed RAW series rapid-fire while IBIS holds through the entire burst (keeping the individual RAWs in addition to the merged HDR RAW). So if the total time of your bracketed shots didn't exceed say 2 seconds, you could do bracketing handheld. Certainly seems possible to me.
p.14 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
highdesertmesa wrote:
I'm glad they included all the higher-end options. I'd rather have the ability to choose to record sub-20 or sub-15-minute videos at higher res if I want to. I especially don't understand the opinion that 4K/120 shouldn't have been included. If you're using that for slow motion, don't you take short bursts since it stretches out so far on the timeline once you slow it down?
I'm glad to see Canon including all they can and then giving us the choice as to if and how to use it. If they'd played it safe, we'd have another release everyone was calling "feature-limited" and Canon would be criticized for "finally just catching up with everyone else".
The opinion to play it safe sounds like the old Canon management style that is gone. I'm glad it's gone....Show more →
I think the argument is more that they are clearly marketing this as an 8K professional grade video camera, which, with the current overheating issues, it isn't. It would be like BMW trying to market a new car as having some killer feature which causes the engine to unexpectedly shut off after a few minutes of driving.
p.14 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
RoamingScott wrote:
I think the argument is more that they are clearly marketing this as an 8K professional grade video camera, which, with the current overheating issues, it isn't. It would be like BMW trying to market a new car as having some killer feature which causes the engine to unexpectedly shut off after a few minutes of driving.
BMW's have been battling reliability issues for years so that's a good analogy.
