p.15 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Sony doesn’t has a strategy that includes a camera like the R5 anywhere in the pipeline—1 year or 3 years out—if they do it’s only because a camera like the R5 exists, but I suspect they’ll
Wait to see how it sells first.
How do I know? Sony is invested heavily in a segmented camera range. Four full frame cameras. Four! And 3 crop sensors cameras. Seven cameras in the e mount system. And that’s just the current releases. They keep many of the older generation cameras on the shelves for years. ~12 e mount cameras that anyone can waltz into their local camera store (lol) to purchase.
If Sony wanted to make an R5 jack of all trades they’d have done it.
Holger wrote:
Agree here.
I think what people forget in their thoughts regarding switching etc. is, that Sony is not stopping developing new cameras now.
What do people do if Sony is bringing out the next great camera, making a big splash on the spec sheet? Do they all switch back again? I think people, esp. younger ones, lack impulse-control in that regard ;-)
p.15 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
RoamingScott wrote:
I think the argument is more that they are clearly marketing this as an 8K professional grade video camera, which, with the current overheating issues, it isn't. It would be like BMW trying to market a new car as having some killer feature which causes the engine to unexpectedly shut off after a few minutes of driving.
I don't think so. I think this is a non-issue since Canon clearly isn't targeting the C300 crowd except as a B-cam, in which case, they will have three of four of these lined up to get around the thermal limits the same way they have four REDs lined up for when they crap out, and they do.
To me, 20 minutes or less of 8K RAW or 4K/120 sounds reasonable. A 512 CFExpress card holds about 20 minutes of 8K RAW, and the 1 and 2TB CFexpress cards have iffy reviews and mixed reports on compatibility with various camera. The 512 SanDisk is the only SanDisk approved for 1DX3, so it may be the same for R5. Maybe there's a larger approved brand, but I trust SanDisk.
I'm still trying to find the guy who was planning on shooting an entire wedding in 8K RAW – 4 hours of footage is what, 6TB of data on twelve 512gb CFExpress cards at $600 each, so that's $7200 worth of cards? Maybe that's manageable in post if you delete the originals after rendering out the finals or something.
Canon said it shoots 8K RAW, and no one thought that was even possible regardless of a time limit. People thought the camera would catch fire after 5 minutes of shooting. 20 minutes is better than I expected.
p.15 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
highdesertmesa wrote:
I don't think so. I think this is a non-issue since Canon clearly isn't targeting the C300 crowd except as a B-cam, in which case, they will have three of four of these lined up to get around the thermal limits the same way they have four REDs lined up for when they crap out, and they do.
To me, 20 minutes or less of 8K RAW or 4K/120 sounds reasonable. A 512 CFExpress card holds about 20 minutes of 8K RAW, and the 1 and 2TB CFexpress cards have iffy reviews and mixed reports on compatibility with various camera. The 512 SanDisk is the only SanDisk approved for 1DX3, so it may be the same for R5. Maybe there's a larger approved brand, but I trust SanDisk.
I'm still trying to find the guy who was planning on shooting an entire wedding in 8K RAW – 4 hours of footage is what, 6TB of data on twelve 512gb CFExpress cards at $600 each, so that's $7200 worth of cards? Maybe that's manageable in post if you delete the originals after rendering out the finals or something.
Canon said it shoots 8K RAW, and no one thought that was even possible regardless of a time limit. People thought the camera would catch fire after 5 minutes of shooting. 20 minutes is better than I expected....Show more →
p.15 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Brea wrote:
Glad you're happy to be their beta tester.
Whatever, dude. Sure.
Edit to say: In all seriousness, I've been using the R for about a year, so I know all about using a product that's not quite baked the way you want it to be. By comparison to the R, the R5 looks to be so far above and beyond that for many of us Canon shooters, this is going to feel like heaven – even if the flames of hell engulf us after 20 minutes of 8K RAW
p.15 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
As I said before, image stabilization claims are always exaggerated. The Panasonic G9 with the Leica 12 to 60 lens id supposed to give 6.5 stops. Even one eighth of a second was a struggle and I am a young man with good coordination. Don't buy into the hype until there is extensive testing. That being said, Sony definitely needs to improve theirs.
p.15 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
shadow9d9 wrote:
As I said before, image stabilization claims are always exaggerated. The Panasonic G9 with the Leica 12 to 60 lens id supposed to give 6.5 stops. Even one eighth of a second was a struggle and I am a young man with good coordination. Don't buy into the hype until there is extensive testing. That being said, Sony definitely needs to improve theirs.
Definitely we will see for sure in a few weeks. But don't forget Canon (and Nikon) have huge mount diameters, and (unlike Nikon Z lenses for the most part) many of the RF lenses have very large image circles – both together allow for greater stabilization versus E-mount. This isn't just on paper. Reviewers who have used the camera have reported handheld at 2 seconds (one report at 4). My 28-70 is rated at 8 stops – I will definitely report if that's true or not once I get my grubby hands on the R5.
p.15 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
RoamingScott wrote:
It would be like BMW trying to market a new car as having some killer feature which causes the engine to unexpectedly shut off after a few minutes of driving.
I don't think that's a good analogy. It would be like BMW marketing a new V8 engine with a "800hp high boost mode" that is only recommended to be used on a drag strip or race track for 10-20 minutes to avoid overheating. I think most car enthusiasts with common sense would drive responsibly (ie 4K30 or 4K60) most of the time but be thrilled with the new innovation that is available to them. Much like 800hp on a street car, who honestly needs 8K or 4K120 to shoot interviews or documentaries? Especially considering how massive the files are?
I applaud Canon for pushing the envelope. I'm glad they didn't make a 1200g behemoth of camera like the Panasonic S1H to prevent the camera from overheating. It's a hybrid camera and honestly you should be looking at their Cinema line of cameras if you are that serious about video anyway.
p.15 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Just out of curiosity, did anyone take the challenge from my previous post about looking up the other existing options one can currently use to record full frame 8k raw video?
I highly recommend everyone do so and then report back here to see if their perspectives have changed at all about being able to do it for any amount of time on a rig that costs less that $4,000 at the R5 size and dimensions (along with IBIS, DPAF II equivalent, etc).
I'll wait.
Just a hint. You could buy a crate of R5 bodies for the equivalent amount of money and they could conversely, do a lot of things that the exorbitantly expensive gigantic dedicated rigs couldn't.
Also, I think this is a semantics/perspective issue and not so much a reliability issue as I would imagine Canon will be completely up front about recording times/overheating once definitively determined on their end.
As such, I look at it as Canon offering a body that is capable of recording full frame 8k raw video for up to 10, 15, or 20 minutes at xx degrees/specified conditions and not a camera that could potentially arbitrarily shut off/fail.
Unreliable, to me, would be if the R5 failed to do (at a minimum) what Canon states. Nothing more, nothing less.
Also, a better car analogy would be Honda producing a car for $39,000 that is advertised as being able to match or get close to what the fastest exotic sports car in the world can do at its top end but only for a fraction of the time.
p.15 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I like the way this video (Armando), put it about the overheating issue. While not planning to buy the R5, the overheating would not stop me from buying it if I were planning to buy it.
Canon has done a poor job in not presenting the overheating in a possitive way like if they were hiding something while indeed it is a special moment feature.
p.15 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
NissanPatrol wrote:
I like the way this video (Armando), put it about the overheating issue. While not planning to buy the R5, the overheating would not stop me from buying it if I were planning to buy it.
Canon has done a poor job in not presenting the overheating in a possitive way like if they were hiding something while indeed it is a special moment feature.
Disagree with this.
Canon made it clear that the device would/could overheat in particular situations, mainly using full processing power for prolonged periods.
Sony kept the overheating issue tucked under covers as long as possible and waited for vloggers to force them to make firmware updates and warnings.
p.15 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Putting 8K aside for a second, for 4K (120/60/30/24), I’ve heard that also overheats since it’s oversampling but doesn’t overheat if shot in “standard” and not “high quality” (oversampled). My question, if you don’t use oversampling and shoot “standard” 4K (120/60/30/24), is it cropped then? If so, what’s the crop factor?
p.15 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
highdesertmesa wrote:
I don't think so. I think this is a non-issue since Canon clearly isn't targeting the C300 crowd except as a B-cam, in which case, they will have three of four of these lined up to get around the thermal limits the same way they have four REDs lined up for when they crap out, and they do.
To me, 20 minutes or less of 8K RAW or 4K/120 sounds reasonable. A 512 CFExpress card holds about 20 minutes of 8K RAW, and the 1 and 2TB CFexpress cards have iffy reviews and mixed reports on compatibility with various camera. The 512 SanDisk is the only SanDisk approved for 1DX3, so it may be the same for R5. Maybe there's a larger approved brand, but I trust SanDisk.
I'm still trying to find the guy who was planning on shooting an entire wedding in 8K RAW – 4 hours of footage is what, 6TB of data on twelve 512gb CFExpress cards at $600 each, so that's $7200 worth of cards? Maybe that's manageable in post if you delete the originals after rendering out the finals or something.
Canon said it shoots 8K RAW, and no one thought that was even possible regardless of a time limit. People thought the camera would catch fire after 5 minutes of shooting. 20 minutes is better than I expected....Show more →
For me it is clearly an overhyped product. I can remember the many discussions when Sony cameras showed overheating. Canon fans and Videographers were quick to point out that these recording limits pose a no-go, since you can't use the high-quality footage for e.g. interviews, where the camera needs to run a certain longer amount of time.
Now, all of a sudden this is a non-issue and one has to applaud them for putting e.g. 8k, which poses nothing extraordinarily new from a technology perspective, being done by several companies, into a small body, without proper heat management.
For me that is a fail and shows it to be more of a marketing thing, than intended for real high-end use ("a camera for pros") and competition for their cinema line. Many of those points where raised before the launch and those people were ridiculed immediately.
The camera itself is certainly a very nice and welcome product. Nevertheless, the footnotes are still important and we will see what else will come out short of expectations.
I am very careful with Canon marketing statements. They often try to exaggerate - an example is their sensitivity measurements which, contrary to all other manufacturers, are done with f/1.2 lenses (centerpoint) instead of at f2, to make the camera seem better.
As with "fastest AF" bla bla from many manufacturers (including Sony) it is always important to read the footnotes.
p.15 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Holger wrote:
For me it is clearly an overhyped product. I can remember the many discussions when Sony cameras showed overheating. Canon fans and Videographers were quick to point out that these recording limits pose a no-go, since you can't use the high-quality footage for e.g. interviews, where the camera needs to run a certain longer amount of time.
Now, all of a sudden this is a non-issue and one has to applaud them for putting e.g. 8k, which poses nothing extraordinarily new from a technology perspective, being done by several companies, into a small body, without proper heat management.
For me that is a fail and shows it to be more of a marketing thing, than intended for real high-end use ("a camera for pros") and competition for their cinema line. Many of those points where raised before the launch and those people were ridiculed immediately.
The camera itself is certainly a very nice and welcome product. Nevertheless, the footnotes are still important and we will see what else will come out short of expectations.
I am very careful with Canon marketing statements. They often try to exaggerate - an example is their sensitivity measurements which, contrary to all other manufacturers, are done with f/1.2 lenses (centerpoint) instead of at f2, to make the camera seem better.
As with "fastest AF" bla bla from many manufacturers (including Sony) it is always important to read the footnotes. ...Show more →
I wasn't aware that there was even much interview content being done in 6k let alone 8.
With regard to the technology perspective and this being done by several companies, which companies are those and which products specifically, are doing full frame 8k raw video? Honest question as I was not aware.
Agreed regarding marketing exaggerations as every single company has been guilty of this.
Anyhow, I think it's reasonable to say that there is no free lunch, especially when we are considering price point, package, and the things that the R5 can specifically do. There will be expected inherent caveats. From my perspective, if you need (at present) a camera that can record full frame 8k raw video without similar limitations, you should probably be considering something much higher end. The fact that you are getting a taste of Bugatti performance at a Honda price point is quite a feat in and of itself which is why some of us are not holding the R5 8k recording ability to the same level of scrutiny as anything else at present.
Also, if I am in fact mistaken and there are other companies using a similar sensor size combined with this level of resolution and capable of producing 8k raw video (not named Red and/or costing at least a handful of R5s), I happily rescind my previous statements and accept I have spoken in error.
p.15 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
JohnDizzo15 wrote:
I wasn't aware that there was even much interview content being done in 6k let alone 8.
With regard to the technology perspective and this being done by several companies, which companies are those and which products specifically, are doing full frame 8k raw video? Honest question as I was not aware.
Agreed regarding marketing exaggerations as every single company has been guilty of this.
Anyhow, I think it's reasonable to say that there is no free lunch, especially when we are considering price point, package, and the things that the R5 can specifically do. There will be expected inherent caveats. From my perspective, if you need (at present) a camera that can record full frame 8k raw video without similar limitations, you should probably be considering something much higher end. The fact that you are getting a taste of Bugatti performance at a Honda price point is quite a feat in and of itself which is why some of us are not holding the R5 8k recording ability to the same level of scrutiny as anything else at present.
Also, if I am in fact mistaken and there are other companies using a similar sensor size combined with this level of resolution and capable of producing 8k raw video (not named Red and/or costing at least a handful of R5s), I happily rescind my previous statements and accept I have spoken in error....Show more →
I didn't relate it to FF, but specifically referred to it as a technology thing. 8k is nothing extraordinary in itself as isn't 6k, 4k ,2k. Using it instead of 4k or 6k isn't a great achievement - the technology, processors, codecs etc. are there and putting it into a smaller camera body with a FF sensor without dealing with the heat generation isn't therefore really a technological breakthrough, in my opinion (e.g. after 20 min in room temperature you need to cool down the camera for 10 min, to be able to record another 3 min before shutting it down again).
I teach engineering at a university and I do/did many projects with big engineering companies. Because of this I think of it as half-baked solution intended to be seen as a sign of force: we are a technology leader using cutting edge tech ... Because when planning all that you always ask about the limitations, the reliability, usefulness vs. benefit etc.
As you can see it worked. People applaud Canon and dismiss arguments they made against Sony overheating in the past.
That doesn't mean this to be a bad camera. To the contrary.
"I wasn't aware that there was even much interview content being done in 6k let alone 8"
Well, high quality 4k/60p overheats, too. Besides, I saw so many people dreaming about making interviews in 8k and just cropping in post avoiding cameras with different lenses, focus pulling etc.
p.15 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Bob_S wrote:
Disagree with this.
Canon made it clear that the device would/could overheat in particular situations, mainly using full processing power for prolonged periods.
Sony kept the overheating issue tucked under covers as long as possible and waited for vloggers to force them to make firmware updates and warnings.
Where on their product page does it mention anything about overheating? I mean seriously? To say Canon is being transparent is an absolute joke. Just look at the website and the language they use. Further more go to Adorama or B&H and try and find an * or anything mentioning overheating. I'm not saying it is not an incredible camera. But let's not be silly.
