p.13 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
meyerkev248 wrote:
Some interesting R5 IBIS results here:
R5 + 70-200 handheld 0.8s @ F4.5 ISO 320 at 4:18 in the video.
So I know that I, a mere mortal who doesn't get paid to do this sort of thing, can't actually hit those shots, but 1/20 would still be pretty amazing.
To take this picture without IBIS you would need 1/200 speed or 160 times faster that would require 7+ stops of IBIS. So looks like Canon does have 8 stops.
Little math. Assume Canon does 8 stops vs Sony 5.5 = 2.5 stops difference or 5.5 times ISO. So to take this picture with Sony you would need to raise ISO to 1800 and shoot at 1/7 sec speed.
p.13 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Fred Miranda wrote:
Even if your subject (person) is completely still, how low can your shutter speed go for an image focused on the eye to be critically sharp?
That's unrelated to camera shake and only dependent on how still your subject can hold. Wedding photographers don't want to take the risk going below 1/30s or 1/60s. That's where the extra 3 stops will not make any difference. You should not go lower than 1/30s and that's if someone is really holding still.
Other than people photography (especially candids), I do think the extra stops (8 instead of 5.5) of camera shake compensation could be useful for motionless subjects though....Show more →
Still thinking about the issue of the 7-8 stops of IBIS on the R5.
Is the following correct?
The actual process of image stabilization is not really about stops at all. It is about counteracting the effects of camera movement. A better IBIS system can correct higher amplitudes of camera movement than can a less capable system. Period.
Saying that an IBIS system provides 8 stops of IS is just a way of expressing the degree to which the IBIS system can compensate for camera movement--it is really saying that the 8 stop IBIS can compensate for camera movement about as well as you could by raising your shutter speed by 8 stops. It is just a way of expressing the degree of correction that the IBIS performs.
But that same level of correction is still operating even if you don't lower your shutter speed by 8 stops.
In other words, an 8 stop IBIS is better than a 5 stop IBIS even if you don't lower your shutter speed below the 1/focal-length rule of thumb. We have all shot pictures at 1/focal-length or 1/(2 x focal-length) or 1/(3 x focal length) that showed camera movement. The 8 stop IBIS will be better than the 5 stop IBIS in that situation because it is better at correcting camera movement at any shutter speed. It will correct more of the camera movement that slightly or more grossly reduces sharpness.
It's not actually about stops; its about what amplitude of camera movement can be corrected by the IBIS system.
So, if you are only shooting at one or two stops slower than the recommended shutter speed for your focal length, the 8 stop IBIS will still correct camera movements more completely than the 5 stop system and will therefore provide more shots, on average, that are sharper and a higher degree of maximum sharpness in the best shots.
So, if someone with a 5 stop IBIS system never normally shoots an 85mm lens slower than 1/250 of a second (as Holger above says he does), the 8 stop IBIS system would let him shoot the 85mm lens at 1/125 of a second or 1/60 of a second but with more sharp results and a higher degree of maximum sharpness than he got at 1/250th of a second with the 5 stop IBIS system.
p.13 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
The devil will be in the IRL detail — AF tracking, blackout time, rolling shutter, actual IBIS performance, sensor performance etc. On-paper specs and glowing “reviews” from ambassadors are one thing, real life performance another. Rolling shutter and the settings required to achieve 20fps are two things in particular that I’m curious about.
That said, the R5 looks like an awesome camera for the money with potential to be a true jack of all trades body. I switched from Canon last year (to an A9) after being underwhelmed by the R and TBH I have come to prefer the Sony size and aesthetics (apart from the menu system, which remains an abomination). The R5 is slightly bigger than the already chunky R, but despite size being one reason I switched to Sony I would have opted for the R5 over the A92 in a heartbeat if I was looking for a 5D3 replacement today.
p.13 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
switched from canon about 3 years ago. still have a lot of canon glass.
Battery life is an issue with both new canon bodies. Also, on one of the reviews on youtube, they were not impressed by quality of video, and of course there is concern with r5 of over heating.
that said, the r5 is a lot of camera, for both stills and video. Canon has always had better ergonomics and menu system. buffer is deeper, both cameras should 14 bit at 12fps. we have to see how well AF funcitons, and DR and other things of course. I think competition is great.
p.13 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I'm keeping my A9 for action/sports and for those times I want a smaller outfit.
I'm interested in the R5 primarily for...
1. Landscapes --- The RF 15-35 and RF 70-200 are the only 2 lenses I need for landscapes. The flippy screen is awesome for tripod work (especially portrait orientation) and the extra stops of IBIS would also be helfpul.
2. Portraiture/video of my family --- The RF50/1.2 and RF85/1.2 combined with Canon skin tones is hard to beat.
p.13 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Zony_user wrote:
I'm keeping my A9 for action/sports and for those times I want a smaller outfit.
I'm interested in the R5 primarily for...
1. Landscapes --- The RF 15-35 and RF 70-200 are the only 2 lenses I need for landscapes. The flippy screen is awesome for tripod work (especially portrait orientation) and the extra stops of IBIS would also be helfpul.
2. Portraiture/video of my family --- The RF50/1.2 and RF85/1.2 combined with Canon skin tones is hard to beat.
1. I prefer tripods for landscape work, longer exposures aren't possible anyway even with an IBIS as claimed. And for landscape work the A7riv + Sigma will be cheaper and provide even better performance. I was never limited by IBIS for landscape work with wide angles etc. I see the IBIS suitable for church stuff, where you aren't allowed to use tripods. But these places are usually so crowded, that most images are not for sale anyway.
2. Well, of course you can spend 11000 Euros to do family portraits. I think for that purpose alone it is overkill. Of course you can spend the money for whatever you want, just saying. You images won't be better. Canon skin tones is a myth in my opinion, too (I know some disagree but usually mean OOC jpegs - but that would be ridiculous to buy such gear to use it on jpgs alone).
I think we often have the grass is greener over there mentality here. People see the specs, want a new toy, loose money and find out they didn't miraculously get better images. Just my opinion.
p.13 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I wouldn’t think of a9 as primarily an action camera. I think it is a perfect body for doing everything. It is the best people/wedding cam. I am buying an a9 and i know i am not buying a BIF camera. You want a camera as (AF) reliable as a9 simple.
For those who have a *real* use for a high res body, should look at R5 no doubt. It sounds like the best camera after a9. Better than a7 series when AF and touch screen features (which are crippled in Sony bodies) are looked at. Also its 45mp which is a huge plus vis a vis OTT 64 mp. I wonder if Sony made a wrong decision with a7IV. If they had put the same 42mp sensor in a7IV body and that AF, i would surely buy it because now i know what a great sensor that a7r III has.
Sony have to do just one small thing. Launch a9R with 45mp/42mp.
Zony_user wrote:
I'm keeping my A9 for action/sports and for those times I want a smaller outfit.
I'm interested in the R5 primarily for...
1. Landscapes --- The RF 15-35 and RF 70-200 are the only 2 lenses I need for landscapes. The flippy screen is awesome for tripod work (especially portrait orientation) and the extra stops of IBIS would also be helfpul.
2. Portraiture/video of my family --- The RF50/1.2 and RF85/1.2 combined with Canon skin tones is hard to beat.
p.13 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
nandadevieast wrote:
I wouldn’t think of a9 as primarily an action camera. I think it is a perfect body for doing everything. It is the best people/wedding cam. I am buying an a9 and i know i am not buying a BIF camera. You want a camera as (AF) reliable as a9 simple.
For those who have a *real* use for a high res body, should look at R5 no doubt. It sounds like the best camera after a9. Better than a7 series when AF and touch screen features (which are crippled in Sony bodies) are looked at. Also its 45mp which is a huge plus vis a vis OTT 64 mp. I wonder if Sony made a wrong decision with a7IV. If they had put the same 42mp sensor in a7IV body and that AF, i would surely buy it because now i know what a great sensor that a7r III has.
Sony have to do just one small thing. Launch a9R with 45mp/42mp.
Agree here.
I think what people forget in their thoughts regarding switching etc. is, that Sony is not stopping developing new cameras now.
What do people do if Sony is bringing out the next great camera, making a big splash on the spec sheet? Do they all switch back again? I think people, esp. younger ones, lack impulse-control in that regard ;-)
p.13 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Holger wrote:
1. I prefer tripods for landscape work, longer exposures aren't possible anyway even with an IBIS as claimed. And for landscape work the A7riv + Sigma will be cheaper and provide even better performance. I was never limited by IBIS for landscape work with wide angles etc. I see the IBIS suitable for church stuff, where you aren't allowed to use tripods. But these places are usually so crowded, that most images are not for sale anyway.
2. Well, of course you can spend 11000 Euros to do family portraits. I think for that purpose alone it is overkill. Of course you can spend the money for whatever you want, just saying. You images won't be better. Canon skin tones is a myth in my opinion, too (I know some disagree but usually mean OOC jpegs - but that would be ridiculous to buy such gear to use it on jpgs alone).
I think we often have the grass is greener over there mentality here. People see the specs, want a new toy, loose money and find out they didn't miraculously get better images. Just my opinion....Show more →
1. I prefer a tripod as well, and like I said, a flippy screen is useful for portrait orientation. For those instances where a tripod can not be used, IBIS is great especially for telephoto stopped down.
p.13 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
The R5 looks like a really great all-around camera and it is very nice to see Canon finally put the Cripple Hammer away and focus on making great cameras again.
I'm definitely looking forward to go into a store and try to hold and handle the R5, being a former Canon shooter. I think I'm romanticizing (!) the ergonomics from my Canon days, but they did feel great in the hand for me.
Image quality wise, it would be a side grade from my A7rIII, so a change wouldn't make much sense if that was all there was to it. However, I'm at a bit of a cross road right now. I have finally come to the conclusion that I want a 16-35 f/2.8 is my main lens, and the Sony 16-35 GM and the Canon RF 15-35 are the same price here (Canon slightly cheaper). I also know that the 42-45 MP resolution is the sweet spot for me in full-frame, so I'm not too keen to follow the A7rIV route (or the A9). Maybe a Sony A74 would solve it eventually, but who knows.
My A7rIII is doing fine, but I'm not in love with its ergonomics and handling if I'm being honest with myself. Image quality is still superb, it really is, but it is more of a tool than something that begs me to get out and "have fun" - if that makes sense?
So I will sit pat for a little while and wait for the proper R5 reviews to come in and maybe rent it myself. As I said, I might be romanticizing those Canon ergonomics.
If I was after the best camera to capture action and/or shooting silent, I would be looking at the Sony A9. If I was after high resolution and dynamic range for landscape/stdio, the Fujifilm GFX 100 would be top dog (or Sony A7rIV as the cheaper alternative), but as the best all-around camera, the Canon EOS R5 looks very tempting on paper.
p.13 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
nandadevieast wrote:
I wouldn’t think of a9 as primarily an action camera. I think it is a perfect body for doing everything. It is the best people/wedding cam. I am buying an a9 and i know i am not buying a BIF camera. You want a camera as (AF) reliable as a9 simple.
For those who have a *real* use for a high res body, should look at R5 no doubt. It sounds like the best camera after a9. Better than a7 series when AF and touch screen features (which are crippled in Sony bodies) are looked at. Also its 45mp which is a huge plus vis a vis OTT 64 mp. I wonder if Sony made a wrong decision with a7IV. If they had put the same 42mp sensor in a7IV body and that AF, i would surely buy it because now i know what a great sensor that a7r III has.
Sony have to do just one small thing. Launch a9R with 45mp/42mp.
I agree, the À9 is a keeper for it's versatility. Adding a A7R3 or A7R4 for high res makes more sense, but I've always prefered shooting with multiple systems.
p.13 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I should add that it was my hope that the A9 Mark II changed into a 36 MP resolution camera as the stacked sensor is the biggest game changer in the camera business. But it was not.
p.13 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Stoffer wrote:
I should add that it was my hope that the A9 Mark II changed into a 36 MP resolution camera as the stacked sensor is the biggest game changer in the camera business. But it was not.
Yes, I really hope that is where they head for the A9III....but I have my doubts as it seems these companies are dead set that the top end sports body should stay in the 20MP range. I bet even Canon when they release a potential R1 will also stay in the 20MP range.
p.13 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
There are many roadblocks in the road to a9R. The problem is that Sony will perceive R5 to be a competitor to a7RIV. They might even think a7RIV is a better offering because it has more megapixels. They will see a hypothetical R1 as a real competitor to a9II.
This kind of marketing segmentation may not work out in real life. Canon knows that Sony doesn’t have a high res action camera and they put their feet firmly in that slot.
arbitrage wrote:
Yes, I really hope that is where they head for the A9III....but I have my doubts as it seems these companies are dead set that the top end sports body should stay in the 20MP range. I bet even Canon when they release a potential R1 will also stay in the 20MP range.
p.13 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
Yes, I really hope that is where they head for the A9III....but I have my doubts as it seems these companies are dead set that the top end sports body should stay in the 20MP range. I bet even Canon when they release a potential R1 will also stay in the 20MP range.
Yes, I think this might even be a requirement of the sports/news shooters that need to move files very fast over networks. The more instant, the better. Besides, 20 to 24 MP is more than plenty for their need. I assume some other high volume shooters like wedding photographers feel the same and don’t want to cull through 45 MP files.
p.13 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Fred Miranda wrote:
If you can handhold your camera at 1/60s and get critically sharp images, 8-stop of compensation would allow you to shoot at 4 seconds while still getting critical sharp images. Do you think this is really possible? Would love to see someone here at FM give it a try.
I frequently shoot in dim forests or inclement lighting and it would be wonderful to have consistent clear pics at 1/8 sec and f/5.6 without going to 1200 ISO, or greater. I'm very careful in my holding technique, but sometimes get blur at the old reciprocal rule of 1/x of the focal length, i.e. 1/40 sec on a 40mm lens, my general rule of thumb. Going from ISO 800 to 200 makes a lot of difference in DR and overall IQ.
The new R5 looks pretty exciting to me -- another great tool.
p.13 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
If one wants critically sharp images at slow shutter speeds of still objects, a tripod is your friend. I don't care how much IBIS one has, to handhold a camera for a second will not give you the same critical sharp image as using a tripod. The image might look ok on a display, but zoom in and your $3,000 lens will look like a $300 lens.
p.13 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Stoffer wrote:
I should add that it was my hope that the A9 Mark II changed into a 36 MP resolution camera as the stacked sensor is the biggest game changer in the camera business. But it was not.
Yes, the ideal (and logical in many respects) A92 would have been a slightly higher resolution stacked sensor with a higher resolution EVF (same as A7R4’s), a higher resolution rear screen, and true (up to 120fps) 4K s-log video. I guess that technically all that was not possible for a variety of reasons (processing power, battery life, heat etc.) but hopefully Sony can make it happen for the A93.
As for the A9R that some people keep dreaming about — ain’t gonna happen IMO. The A9 occupies an obvious “high speed” niche that’s very different from the “high resolution” niche served by the A7xR series. Dreaming of the A9R is like dreaming of a high resolution 1D series camera. Makes little sense anymore IMO, as Canon clearly realized after the 1Ds3 (which I owned and gladly ditched for the 5D3).
That would also be my only concern with the R5 — is it trying to cram too much into a single body, forcing compromises in some areas? There’s surely a limit to how much processing power, battery power and heat dissipation can be built into a body that size. I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
thing. Launch a9R with 45mp/42mp. 