p.8 #1 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
Steve Spencer wrote:
To add to this post if we compare the D780 to Z6 the D780 weighs 165g more, but all the f/1.8S lens are heavier than their f/1.8G counterparts. At 24mm it is 450g vs. 355g; at 35mm it is 370g vs. 200g; at 50mm it is 415g vs. 185g; and at 85mm it is 470g vs. 350g. This means that even with one lens the weight difference is minimal and goes back and forth. With 24mm and 85mm the Z6 with a lens is slightly lighter and at 35mm and 50mm the D780 with one lens is slightly lighter. If you put together any kit with even two lenses the D780 kit will be lighter (and I don't think this will change with the 20mm as the f/1.8G lens is at 355g is almost certainly going to be lighter than the f/1.8S lens).
So getting a Z6 kit to save weight (or even size) for travel doesn't really make much sense. Now, personally I use a Z7 kit for travel, so I am not saying there aren't other reasons to get a Z kit for travel but weight and size really aren't sensible reasons over the D780 and the small f/1.8G lenses. For me I can have a better set of lenses with my Z kit and I can have a high resolution camera and those things matter to me (I also really like IBIS for travel), but if one is happy with the f/1.8G lenses and 24 MP the D780 kit could be pretty compelling. ...Show more →
A lot of the "argument" of this only applies based on what Nikon decided to make and what they currently make. The Z7 kit looks good to you because Nikon made a small body, 46mp piece of gear. If Nikon had taken the Df or D750 as their model to design from and made a 46 mp "small" DSLR, added IBIS, and updated their 1.8 lenses to 2020 technology standards, it's very likely that would have been just as desirable a travel kit as the Z7. The D780 as it is, for those that are satisfied at 24mp, may very well be as desirable as the Z6.
I've went through about 20 pages of the Zee image thread, and it's a variety of what I'd call snaps, and then some very nice images. Give the same fellows equal mp DSLRs with IBIS (or without) and you'd still have the same fellows putting out snaps and the same fellows putting out images. The kit will not change that.
Same would hold true if Nikon built a Z9 that had the AF of the D6, but never made a D5 or D6. Then I might look at it and say I'd be buying a Z9. But that wound be a forced decision based on what Nikon decided to sell, the same as it would be now if I wanted a 46mp small body for travel.
p.8 #6 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
PhotoSteve134 wrote:
I've just invested in my DSLR Ni(k)on camera - how long do you think we've got. Do you think the top end models will go first[/quote
p.8 #7 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
sjms wrote:
being that you have brought it up, how do you define "snaps" vs "images" and how do you "judge" other peoples work?
I believe one must be rather careful how one treads here as one mans trash is another gold.
His point is valid. The camera has little influence on the "artistic" value of the photo. To me, viewfinder, lens and responsiveness matter. My D2Xs has that in spades. If I had any brains, I should buy better lenses for that camera rather than wasting money on new bodies
p.8 #8 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
I must have some kind of malfunction in the software of my web browser. I click on my bookmark link for the Nikon Forum of Fred Miranda and I somehow get presented this childish, argumentative, trolling thread that resembles DPreview.
p.8 #9 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
T-O Shooter wrote:
Being that you didn't bring it up, but have an interest in it, how would you define "snaps" vs "images"?
I don’t. Each image has a value to someone at some level. Now that you have tried to turn my question around please answer it.
Jan 13, 2020 at 12:23 PM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.8 #10 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
T-O Shooter wrote:
A lot of the "argument" of this only applies based on what Nikon decided to make and what they currently make. The Z7 kit looks good to you because Nikon made a small body, 46mp piece of gear. If Nikon had taken the Df or D750 as their model to design from and made a 46 mp "small" DSLR, added IBIS, and updated their 1.8 lenses to 2020 technology standards, it's very likely that would have been just as desirable a travel kit as the Z7. The D780 as it is, for those that are satisfied at 24mp, may very well be as desirable as the Z6.
I've went through about 20 pages of the Zee image thread, and it's a variety of what I'd call snaps, and then some very nice images. Give the same fellows equal mp DSLRs with IBIS (or without) and you'd still have the same fellows putting out snaps and the same fellows putting out images. The kit will not change that.
Same would hold true if Nikon built a Z9 that had the AF of the D6, but never made a D5 or D6. Then I might look at it and say I'd be buying a Z9. But that wound be a forced decision based on what Nikon decided to sell, the same as it would be now if I wanted a 46mp small body for travel.
Funny how you think you know exactly why the Z7 looks good to me and what sort of DSLR kit would look as good to me. You are actually wrong that the D780 looks good to me--it doesn't (although I can recognize why it looks good to others) and you are definitely wrong about what sort of DSLR would look good to me (as I explain below I don't think any DSLR would work for me personally, but I can appreciate why others would like one). For me a DSLR kit would never work for travel because I want small manual focus lenses with excellent performance in addition to an AF lens or two and that is something that just can't be done well with DSLRs. There are two problems for this type of lens with DSLRs that are inherent to the design. First, DSLRs can't magnify the viewfinder and although I like an optical viewfinder for some types of shooting, I don't like an optical viewfinder for shooting manual focus and especially wide angle manual focus. The EVF is just tons better for manual focus glass. Second there is the issue of flange distance. A DSLR has to have a long flange distance and that means large wide angle lenses, whereas there is some phenomenal and small wide angle manual focus glass available for mirrorless that just could never be built for a DSLR because it requires a short flange distance. For example, the Zeiss Loxia 21 f/2.8, the Voigtlander 21 f/3.4, the Voigtlander 21 f/1.4, and the Zeiss Loxia 25 f/2.4 are all phenomenal lenses and just could not be built for a DSLR. These sort of lenses are an integral part of any travel kit I put together. I am certainly not saying my way of designing a travel kit should set the agenda for what Nikon should do or even that my way of building a travel kit is common, but I am saying for me a DSLR would just never work for travel, and I do very much appreciate my high resolution Z7 with IBIS and I also very much appreciate that it is a mirrorless camera with a very short flange distance so I can use exactly the lenses I want to use with it.
p.8 #11 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
Speculation is akin to gossip: favorite activities that have little value especially in this case. Let's say the D6 and the D780 were the last DSLRs ever released by Nikon. We would still have magnificent DSLRs available to use and purchase for a long time to come. The only reason to make predictions about this is to blog/brag later how smart one is. It is also something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone believes DSLRs are dying out then they will.
p.8 #12 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
Steve Spencer wrote:
Funny how you think you know exactly why the Z7 looks good to me and what sort of DSLR kit would look as good to me. You are actually wrong about that. For me a DSLR kit would never work for travel because I want small manual focus lenses with excellent performance in addition to an AF lens or two and that is something that just can't be done well with DSLRs. There are two problems for this type of lens with DSLRs that are inherent to the design. First, DSLRs can't magnify the viewfinder and although I like an optical viewfinder for some types of shooting, I don't like an optical viewfinder for shooting manual focus and especially wide angle manual focus. The EVF is just tons better for manual focus glass. Second there is the issue of flange distance. A DSLR has to have a long flange distance and that means large wide angle lenses, whereas there is some phenomenal and small wide angle manual focus glass available for mirrorless that just could never be built for a DSLR because it requires a short flange distance. For example, the Zeiss Loxia 21 f/2.8, the Voigtlander 21 f/3.4, the Voigtlander 21 f/1.4, and the Zeiss Loxia 25 f/2.4 are all phenomenal lenses and just could not be built for a DSLR. These sort of lenses are an integral part of any travel kit I put together. I am certainly not saying my way of designing a travel kit should set the agenda for what Nikon should do or even that my way of building a travel kit is common, but I am saying for me a DSLR would just never work for travel, and I do very much appreciate my high resolution Z7 with IBIS and I also very much appreciate that it is a mirrorless camera with a very short flange distance so I can use exactly the lenses I want to use with it....Show more →
These are the exact reasons why for travel a kit built around a mirrorless camera can be much more compact and weigh much less than an equivalent kit built around a DSLR system. Much of my travel photography involves closeup wide angle images where the savings in lens size and weight is greatest going mirrorless. I also always travel with a spare camera, sometimes two and if you include a spare DSLR the bulk and weight differences grow. My pack is smaller with mirrorless as well as my tripod...again savings in bulk and weight.
Those that say there is no potential weight savings going mirrorless is just wrong.
p.8 #13 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
Steve Spencer wrote:
Funny how you think you know exactly why the Z7 looks good to me and what sort of DSLR kit would look as good to me. You are actually wrong that the D780 looks good to me--it doesn't (although I can recognize why it looks good to others) and you are definitely wrong about what sort of DSLR would look good to me (as I explain below I don't think any DSLR would work for me personally, but I can appreciate why others would like one). For me a DSLR kit would never work for travel because I want small manual focus lenses with excellent performance in addition to an AF lens or two and that is something that just can't be done well with DSLRs. There are two problems for this type of lens with DSLRs that are inherent to the design. First, DSLRs can't magnify the viewfinder and although I like an optical viewfinder for some types of shooting, I don't like an optical viewfinder for shooting manual focus and especially wide angle manual focus. The EVF is just tons better for manual focus glass. Second there is the issue of flange distance. A DSLR has to have a long flange distance and that means large wide angle lenses, whereas there is some phenomenal and small wide angle manual focus glass available for mirrorless that just could never be built for a DSLR because it requires a short flange distance. For example, the Zeiss Loxia 21 f/2.8, the Voigtlander 21 f/3.4, the Voigtlander 21 f/1.4, and the Zeiss Loxia 25 f/2.4 are all phenomenal lenses and just could not be built for a DSLR. These sort of lenses are an integral part of any travel kit I put together. I am certainly not saying my way of designing a travel kit should set the agenda for what Nikon should do or even that my way of building a travel kit is common, but I am saying for me a DSLR would just never work for travel, and I do very much appreciate my high resolution Z7 with IBIS and I also very much appreciate that it is a mirrorless camera with a very short flange distance so I can use exactly the lenses I want to use with it....Show more →
Without reading the whole spiel of it, which I have no intention of doing, my point was that what we are choosing as options greatly depend on what Nikon is putting out there. I was neither suggesting that a D780 or a Z7 was the right choice for you. I was talking in general terms.
p.8 #15 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
Steve Spencer wrote:
To add to this post if we compare the D780 to Z6 the D780 weighs 165g more, but all the f/1.8S lens are heavier than their f/1.8G counterparts. At 24mm it is 450g vs. 355g; at 35mm it is 370g vs. 200g; at 50mm it is 415g vs. 185g; and at 85mm it is 470g vs. 350g. This means that even with one lens the weight difference is minimal and goes back and forth. With 24mm and 85mm the Z6 with a lens is slightly lighter and at 35mm and 50mm the D780 with one lens is slightly lighter. If you put together any kit with even two lenses the D780 kit will be lighter (and I don't think this will change with the 20mm as the f/1.8G lens is at 355g is almost certainly going to be lighter than the f/1.8S lens).
So getting a Z6 kit to save weight (or even size) for travel doesn't really make much sense. Now, personally I use a Z7 kit for travel, so I am not saying there aren't other reasons to get a Z kit for travel but weight and size really aren't sensible reasons over the D780 and the small f/1.8G lenses. For me I can have a better set of lenses with my Z kit and I can have a high resolution camera and those things matter to me (I also really like IBIS for travel), but if one is happy with the f/1.8G lenses and 24 MP the D780 kit could be pretty compelling. ...Show more →
Totally agree Steve The argument for and against DSLR vs MLC becomes tiring. I love both systems and it just becomes a choice that we as photographers prefer to use. I love the Z6 because the 35/50/85 are outstanding lenses for their size/weight, value and this does not include the class leading 24-70/2.8S. I still have my stash of 28E, 58G, 105E and 70-200E which are all superb. I could easily opt for a D780 as I no longer need the high MP's for traveling. Problem with MP's for traveling is it eats into data storage very quickly and slows down your laptops regardless even if they are well spec'd. The D750 was excellent but started to become dated not having decent LV or video functionality. The D780 will be great for many but for now I prefer using the FTZ adapter with my lenses.
p.8 #16 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
T-O Shooter wrote:
Without reading the whole spiel of it, which I have no intention of doing, my point was that what we are choosing as options greatly depend on what Nikon is putting out there. I was neither suggesting that a D780 or a Z7 was the right choice for you. I was talking in general terms.
Someone shat in your corn flakes today??
Do you not have the decency to respect Steve's perspective and what he prefers. Your last line of commentary serious requires an apology to Steve or you should be banned from FM !!!
p.8 #17 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
Jorgen Udvang wrote:
His point is valid. The camera has little influence on the "artistic" value of the photo. To me, viewfinder, lens and responsiveness matter. My D2Xs has that in spades. If I had any brains, I should buy better lenses for that camera rather than wasting money on new bodies
p.8 #18 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
charles.K wrote:
Do you not have the decency to respect Steve's perspective and what he prefers. Your last line of commentary serious requires an apology to Steve or you should be banned from FM !!!
I wasn't challenging his point of view. Please re-read what I said, and if you cannot see that, let me know where you are having difficulty and I'll try to help you out.
And if he wants to be an ass with his reply (I've noticed several of you like to give a response to what was not said rather than what was said), expect a response.
Jan 13, 2020 at 01:11 PM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.8 #19 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
chez wrote:
These are the exact reasons why for travel a kit built around a mirrorless camera can be much more compact and weigh much less than an equivalent kit built around a DSLR system. Much of my travel photography involves closeup wide angle images where the savings in lens size and weight is greatest going mirrorless. I also always travel with a spare camera, sometimes two and if you include a spare DSLR the bulk and weight differences grow. My pack is smaller with mirrorless as well as my tripod...again savings in bulk and weight.
Those that say there is no potential weight savings going mirrorless is just wrong....Show more →
Chez, if you actually do the math and stick to primes I think you will find the difference much smaller than you are suggesting. Nikon has long offered a fairly small and light DSLR kit for travel with their very light and quite small in size f/1.8G lenses. Those lenses make pretty much any D780 kit (compared to a Z6 kit) lighter even if you add a second camera (if you care about weight it probably makes sense to add the Df as your second DSLR, which I think is the lightest FF Nikon DSLR). But to demonstrate how these small lenses can even compare quite favorably to a two camera Sony mirrorless kit let's compare these two kits: Nikon D780 and Df, 20 f/1.8G, 28 f/1.8G, 50 f/1.8G, and 85 f/1.8G to the Sony A7 III X 2, Zeiss Loxia 21 f/2.8, Sony FE 28 f/2, Sony FE 55 f/1.8, and Sony FE 85 f/1.8. They are surprisingly close in weight. Yes, the Sony kit does weigh less at 2546g versus the Nikon kit at 2825g of 279g or about an 11% difference. Certainly no huge weight differences in these two kits, however (and if you swap out the 28mm lenses for the 35mm and even if you use the tiny Sony FE 35 f/2.8, the weight difference is even smaller--just 229g--and less than 10%).
So, I am not saying mirrorless doesn't offer you a small kit--it does--but you won't get lighter by going mirrorless in Nikon land and even if you go with Sony which offers the lightest mirrorless FF the weight savings over a light Nikon DSLR kit with their light f/1.8G primes will be minimal at best.
p.8 #20 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?
James Farrell wrote:
I must have some kind of malfunction in the software of my web browser. I click on my bookmark link for the Nikon Forum of Fred Miranda and I somehow get presented this childish, argumentative, trolling thread that resembles DPreview.
Only difference between here and there is that here, there's about 6 fellows everyone agrees with. Change that "everyone in agreement" thingy and you'll find those fellows no better than the worse of DPR.
