fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Nikon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              13              end
  

Archive 2020 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?

  
 
chez
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #1 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


ilkka_nissila wrote:
Holding the camera at waist level and using the back LCD allows for a reasonably steady shooting experience. VR can also help stabilize the camera. The forearms can rest on the sides of one's stomach, so that good stability is achieved. This is especially useful if you are a taller than average person. For a shorter person, shooting with arms extended above one's head may come in handy, although stability is not as good as eye level or waist level. Still, having these options to shoot from different heights creates visual variety.

When shooting on tripod, a tilting LCD can be
...Show more

Oh I agree with you when shooting off a tripod, using the rear LCD and manual focus is great for landscapes. But when I'm shooting crowded markets, events, sports...no way am I going to walk around with my camera protruding arms length from my body as I try to compose an image. Would not work...and why would one even want to if they have a viewfinder?

For me the rear LCD is for stationary objects where I use a tripod and manually focus...so how great the AF is using the rear LCD is a waste IMHO.



Jan 23, 2020 at 07:54 PM
mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #2 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


chez wrote:
Oh I agree with you when shooting off a tripod, using the rear LCD and manual focus is great for landscapes. But when I'm shooting crowded markets, events, sports...no way am I going to walk around with my camera protruding arms length from my body as I try to compose an image. Would not work...and why would one even want to if they have a viewfinder?

For me the rear LCD is for stationary objects where I use a tripod and manually focus...so how great the AF is using the rear LCD is a waste IMHO.


Flip out the LCD & look down, just like shooting a Hassy or TLR. Rest against your body.

Way less obtrusive for street shooting than eyelevel. Almost as stable (more so if you have a BeerPod(tm) and can rest the camera on it) and gets some interesting angles.



Jan 23, 2020 at 08:38 PM
chez
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #3 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


mawz wrote:
Flip out the LCD & look down, just like shooting a Hassy or TLR. Rest against your body.

Way less obtrusive for street shooting than eyelevel. Almost as stable (more so if you have a BeerPod(tm) and can rest the camera on it) and gets some interesting angles.


I wouldn't call a Hassy a great street camera...studio yes, street no. Small Leica's with viewfinders were the great street cameras.



Jan 23, 2020 at 08:48 PM
Max Power
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #4 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


ilkka_nissila wrote:
Holding the camera at waist level and using the back LCD allows for a reasonably steady shooting experience. VR can also help stabilize the camera. The forearms can rest on the sides of one's stomach, so that good stability is achieved. This is especially useful if you are a taller than average person. For a shorter person, shooting with arms extended above one's head may come in handy, although stability is not as good as eye level or waist level. Still, having these options to shoot from different heights creates visual variety.

When shooting on tripod, a tilting LCD can be
...Show more

Agree with all of this. The Z6 is my first camera with an articulating screen and it has really changed the way I shoot.



Jan 23, 2020 at 08:56 PM
mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #5 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


chez wrote:
I wouldn't call a Hassy a great street camera...studio yes, street no. Small Leica's with viewfinders were the great street cameras.


I'd take a Rolleiflex over a Hassy most days for street (mostly for the extremely unobtrusive shutter), but both are surprising nice street cameras.

Lots of street and PJ work was shot on Rolleiflex's and Rolleicords, and a lot more than you'd think on a Hassy with an 80/2.8C



Jan 23, 2020 at 09:15 PM
chez
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #6 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


mawz wrote:
I'd take a Rolleiflex over a Hassy most days for street (mostly for the extremely unobtrusive shutter), but both are surprising nice street cameras.

Lots of street and PJ work was shot on Rolleiflex's and Rolleicords, and a lot more than you'd think on a Hassy with an 80/2.8C


Ummm..,ok. I'll take your word for it. Not my cup of tea to stand there looking down into my camera while things evolve on the street.



Jan 23, 2020 at 09:39 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #7 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


ilkka_nissila wrote:
My experience is different from that described. I often see people with mirrorless cameras use the back LCD, and some of them actually complain about the poor AF of DSLRs in LV mode as an argument against DSLRs, suggesting that they think using the back LCD to shoot is really important. I often see portrait shooters shoot with the LCD tilted and with the camera at waist level to mimic the experience of shooting a waist-level viewfinder (TLR or Hasselblad V style shooting) - this is good because you avoid straining your body by having to stand at an awkward
...Show more

Yes, our experience is different. Do you really think that eye-level shooting leads to too homogenous of output? Wouldn't such thinking be a pretty strong indictment of DSLRs up until the D780? They have too homogenous of output or poor LCD based shooting. Seems to me like a way oversimplification to suggest that eye-level shooting leads to too homogenous of output. You can of course use an eye level finder and produce all different kinds of output. I used a DSLR for years without any LCD based shooting and was easily able to pretty easily avoid homogenous output. I am 6' 3" or 191cm tall, so my eye level is pretty high, but if I am shooting kids and want to use the eye level finder it is pretty easy to go down on one knee and shoot from a much lower level. Shooting sitting adults--about zero problem I often sit myself. If I want an even lower perspective, I can easily squat like a baseball catcher (and I can even do that as a relatively out of shapes early fifties guy). It also isn't hard to bend one's knees a bit which easily turns my normal six foot eye level to 5 foot (if I bend at the waist a little) or five foot six inches (if I don't) and nothing about such a stance in uncomfortable to me in the least. I find it pretty odd that anyone and especially someone who appreciates using an OVF would suggest that shooting with an eye level finder would pose such severe restriction that one cannot provide quite nice variety in shooting heights and is stuck with homogenous output. Sure if someone had a physical disability that might happen, but not a healthy adult. After all, many of us used the eye level finder of an OVF exclusively for years and were able to prevent homogenous output.

Sure it is a bonus to have different viewing techniques. My favorite camera if I don't have to carry it too far is my Fuji GFX50s. It has a tillable EVF which allows eye level shooting, but also shooting while holding the camera at my chest and the EVF titled up. It also has a LCD that tilts in both directions (i.e., tilts whether shooting in landscape or portrait orientations). I love the flexibility of being able to use the multiple views and that is a good thing, but it is exactly that flexibility that is missing in the D780. If you want live view focussing it only works with viewing based on the LCD. Some might find that enough, but I would suggest that there are lots and lots of folks who like to use an eye level finder for a good number of their shots and the D780 won't do that for those people if they want the things live view can provide. I would also submit this is a pretty major way that shooting live view with the D780 will be quite different from shooting with a mirrorless camera that will have more flexibility when using the sensor for AF, metering, and previewing the image. The mirrorless cameras can use the LCD if that is what people want, but you can also use the whole sensor for AF, metering, and previewing the image and use an eye level finder. You can't do that on the D780.



Jan 23, 2020 at 09:40 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #8 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
Now we are getting to fine details and personal styles. When it comes to portraits, I hardly ever want a high angle, since it often encourages an unnatural, strained pose. I do however often shoot from a low angle, since it gives a natural and sometimes dramatic effect. When photographing children, which I often do, the answer gives itself. When all that is said, through 40 years of portrait photography, I've done pretty well using the optical viewfinder. It's actually one of the reasons why I would prefer the D780 over the Z6, a more "natural" contact with the
...Show more

Yes, a very nice shot. If I want such an angle, I would typically just go down on one knee and use the eye level finder. Personally, I find every LCD too small for waist level shooting, so I rarely use it for that. If it were about double the size, which would be more the size of the typical focussing screen of a film SLR with a waist level finder, I would find it a lot more useful.

I am not sure if the D780 is the camera for me. It probably isn't. I wouldn't use the LCD and live view focussing except on a tripod. I would like the video features, however. The real hold up for me, however, is that I use a lot of manual focus lenses that I just couldn't mount on any F mount camera and that for me would be the big hold up. I also much prefer an EVF for such MF lenses, so a Z6 would likely be much more appropriate for me. I think it be for most people who prefer live view focussing as well as the Z6 gives more flexibility in how you view images when using that mode of focussing and it allows use of the excellent S lenses as well.

I would think it would be obvious that the D780 is going to be for people who prefer an OVF, and who are willing to give up some of the flexibility in how they can view their images in live view type focussing in order to get the OVF that they will prefer. Nothing wrong with such a choice and I can totally understand why some people would make it. I just don't think that when they make that choice they should pretend that they aren't giving up something, because they are which is the flexibility with which images can be viewed using that type of focussing.



Jan 23, 2020 at 10:01 PM
zhangyue
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #9 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?



For family images, I used Z camera this way 80-90% of time with AF glass only though.

mawz wrote:
Flip out the LCD & look down, just like shooting a Hassy or TLR. Rest against your body.

Way less obtrusive for street shooting than eyelevel. Almost as stable (more so if you have a BeerPod(tm) and can rest the camera on it) and gets some interesting angles.




Jan 23, 2020 at 10:51 PM
Jorgen Udvang
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #10 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


This is an interesting and good discussion, and it shows that personal styles very much influence our camera choices. It's all about the best tool for the job... and for the shooting style. I will continue shooting DSLR and mirrorless... and also film. The D780 looks like an obvious choice. Logically, I should change my m4/3 cameras for a Nikon mirrorless. We'll see. I use an F80 for film for the time being, a very satisfying little camera, particularly with the battery grip attached. D780 + F80 + Z6 plus 4-5 primes should fit well in a medium sized bag (of which I have many ).


Jan 23, 2020 at 11:24 PM
akul
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #11 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


Regarding D780. I just read a review on DC Watch ( in three parts ) . Overall it got a very good review with solid evaluation. Few of the 'into so great' by the writer were: 1. lack of contacts for battery pack in this price range 2. No apparent innovative improvements on tilt screen mechanism 3.Battery life is far less than catalogue rating in real life shooting with using OVF 40%, LV 60% ratio. Writer experienced less than 40% battery life left after 400 shots in this style of shooting. He admits it is understandable due to heavier usage of LV, but still caught him with a surprise. He did not, however, complain about the lack of pop-up flash.

https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/newproduct/1229447.html

Luka



Jan 24, 2020 at 07:43 AM
cvrle59
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #12 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


Measuring and comparing battery life on mirroless cameras or even DSLR's heavily used in live view, is kind of silly to me.
This reminds me on outside temperature in now days, when most of those who forecast and report weather use windchill or humidex without even mentioning what thermometer shows.
These are all calculated values, and most likely very subjective, but they cause so much confusion.
It is going that far, that some people, especially young people, don't even know what temperature water freezes at.
I would rather measure battery life like, how long it's gonna last if camera is turned on, with EVF only, with LCD only, and with both On.
How many shots...you can pull trigger in continues shooting and get 400 shots in very short time, or it can last for hours. It just doesn't make sense at all...IMO.



Jan 24, 2020 at 08:31 AM
mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #13 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


Steve Spencer wrote:
Yes, our experience is different. Do you really think that eye-level shooting leads to too homogenous of output? Wouldn't such thinking be a pretty strong indictment of DSLRs up until the D780? They have too homogenous of output or poor LCD based shooting. Seems to me like a way oversimplification to suggest that eye-level shooting leads to too homogenous of output. You can of course use an eye level finder and produce all different kinds of output. I used a DSLR for years without any LCD based shooting and was easily able to pretty easily avoid homogenous output. I
...Show more

I have personally found that use of only the finder does tend to drive one towards a limit in perspectives around what are comfortable eyelevel positions. For many that means eyelevel at full height, although many photographers do kneel at least to get lower perspectives. But the LCD/waistlevel finder brings a lot of additional flexibility. I probably shoot around 30-40% of my shots at a non-eyelevel camera position when shooting handheld with a mirrorless body.

I prefer to mix eyelevel and waistlevel type shooting to expand perspectives.

And yes, I agree that the live view/ viewfinder switching experience on a DSLR is very much different from using a mirrorless body. On the mirrorless body this switch is seamless, while on a DSLR it's very dis-contiguous, requiring a button press and a pause every time you switch. That's one reason why I like Mirrorless bodies, it's a really great experience when you get whatever display is most useful at the exact moment in time, without having to think about it.



Jan 24, 2020 at 10:23 AM
mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #14 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


zhangyue wrote:
For family images, I used Z camera this way 80-90% of time with AF glass only though.



I manual focus a lot that way as well, with all of the herd of mirrorless bodies I've owned. With peaking it works very well



Jan 24, 2020 at 10:24 AM
mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #15 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


Steve Spencer wrote:
Yes, a very nice shot. If I want such an angle, I would typically just go down on one knee and use the eye level finder. Personally, I find every LCD too small for waist level shooting, so I rarely use it for that. If it were about double the size, which would be more the size of the typical focussing screen of a film SLR with a waist level finder, I would find it a lot more useful.


Modern LCD's are very close in size to MF SLR's waistlevel finders (which were essentially the same as the film format minus the coverage percentage). A 6x6 film SLR has a finder that's around 56mm x 56mm, Nikon's 3.2" 3:2 format LCD's are 68mm x 45mm with almost identical diagonals.

That's about twice the size of the waistlevel on an F2 or F3.



Jan 24, 2020 at 10:30 AM
ilkka_nissila
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #16 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


Steve Spencer wrote:
I just don't think that when they make that choice they should pretend that they aren't giving up something, because they are which is the flexibility with which images can be viewed using that type of focussing.


I see it as best of both worlds as one has available the optical viewfinder for a more direct and real-time contact with the subject, with no nausea-inducing delays, and fast focusing for action subjects (though Multi-CAM 20k is better than the D780's 3500 series module) - and the other is the LCD which allows the benefits of easier shooting from high and low angles, and on tripod, magnified manual focusing. I don't want the EVF as it magnifies the phenomena that I really don't want to see: delayed image, pixels, jaggies, flickering (though Nikon have managed to avoid this for a good part in the Z6/Z7 EVF) and I find them distracting from watching the subject's expressions and emotions, which is the main thing I usually am interested in when photographing people. For me the LCD is a convenient tool (for precision work on tripod and unusual angles) but the OVF is the main way I use a camera for living subjects. If one wants to do video hand-held, or manual focus hand-held then the EVF may be a great tool for that, but to me the price to pay for it (loss of the optical viewfinder) is (to me) too high. I would like to have a small camera like Z6 + 24-70/4 to put on my travel tripod for a light walkaround kit for non-moving subjects. But the EVF always puts me off such thoughts, not to mention the cost of all the new lenses.

In the old days, before tiltable live view, people had medium format cameras with waist-level viewfinders (very popular in portrait and fashion photography), but the crowd shots where one lifts the camera above the crowd's heads may have had to be shot blind (i.e. one guesstimates the composition - even so, I still took such shots). People could kneel down for a low angle but that's not very convenient, comfortable or clean way to get the camera on the ground and often I want to lower the camera just a bit, something like 30-40cm, and shooting from that height requires partial kneeling down and to be honest I don't see it as an ergonomic working position. And yes, with CDAF LV it is a pain to use the LV for living subjects (with non-CDAF-optimal focus motors). But most DSLR shooters use Canon and they've had dual-pixel AF for a while now. Having the option of a competent LV focuser among Nikon DSLRs is definitely a relief. Will I buy it? It really depends on what else Nikon put on the market.

A MF focusing screen isn't much bigger than the back LCD. If you go look at many older generation portraits, rather famous ones as well, many of them were shot at a lowered position compared to the photographer's eye level. And I believe people chose this type of a viewfinder because they wanted this height rather than the one provided by the eye-level viewfinder. (Cost may have been a factor as well).

Of course, kneeling down, or lifting oneself on a stool are always possibilities, if you prefer that. There are certainly different ways of shooting and no one way that is best. How the D780 LV works for portrait photography at waist level depends also on how much delay there is, if EFCS is used (another benefit of the D780), will it just initiate the exposure without delay or is there a longer delay than in viewfinder shooting? Theoretically it can be shorter with EFCS than with the mechanical shutter, but it depends on the way it has been implemented.

Switching between LV and OVF, I don't have any orientation problems, I use each for their benefits; the LV to see how the shot will be rendered by the camera and the OVF how the subject looks through the lens without the digital processing applied to the LV shot. DSLRs allow one both options whereas mirrorless cameras (with the exception of some Fuji models) only offer the computer rendering of the image, a moment afterwards.

Anyway, different people have different subjects, shooting preferences and so on. What is nice today is that there is great diversity in camera equipment and everyone pretty much can choose based on their preferences, budget permitting.



Jan 24, 2020 at 11:59 AM
Brev00
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #17 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


Since the D780 is not a mirrorless camera, its live view performance is not being judged as if it were a mirrorless camera. It is being judged strictly in the way live view works on a DSLR. That is, if one wants the quality of the Z6 live view on a DSLR, then one should get the D780. If one wants to shoot mirrorless then . . . shoot mirrorless. This would be helpful for me as I use live view at times when taking stills and, up until now, the af has been sorely lacking.

The praise of the D780 is not directed at you or your friends. The main message of these reviewers is that this is a DSLR that incorporates features of the Z6 that may make it a great camera for DSLR users. There is a certain number of DSLR users like myself, who prefer ovf shooting, will not get a mirrorless camera, and will benefit from the live view performance of the D780.

Steve Spencer wrote:
Part of what I think doesn't resonate with my experience in that quote is nobody that I know of that uses a mirrorless would even use the term *live view shooting*, and that is for good reason. I know for me, and I think for most people who use a mirrorless, I only use the LCD for special use cases (on a tripod, when the camera is at an unusual angle, etc.) and I use the EVF for 98% of my handheld shooting. In live view shooting on a DSLR that ability to use the EVF would be sorely
...Show more




Jan 24, 2020 at 12:32 PM
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #18 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


EVF cameras and mirror cameras. EVFCs and MCs.

Terminology matters. Labels shape our perceptions of our world in ways barely understood. Accuracy in language is a powerful indicator of a solid scientific field of endeavour. Yet we see pseudo-clever nonsense such as 'Imatest' and 'TWAIN'. Software programmers became 'software engineers' and business analysts became 'enterprise architects' through the processes of gratuitous rebranding and self-serving credentialising.

It might be time to reframe some of the descriptors in common usage in photography.

Descriptors should accurately indicate something valuable and essential about the object or concept in question, rather than refer to the lack of a part used in some other object (now obsolete in the present case). 'Mirrorless' should never be used without irony quotes.

We don't call snakes 'legless animals' nor do we refer to IBIS as 'lens-less image stabilisation'. With the term 'DSLR', the 'D' is now wholly redundant, and the genre was never called a 'filmless SLR' in any case. In fact the 'SL' was only deployed to distinguish the type from the then-common TLR cameras. The 'R' (or reflex) is a simple function of the genre's key distinctor - the mirror.

If we accept that the EVF is the heart and essence of the modern day cameras, they should be called 'EVF cameras', or 'EVFCs' as an acronym. DSLRs should be called 'mirror cameras' or 'MCs' for shorthand use.

The term 'OVF cameras', while being attractive for symmetry, would be problematic because TLRs and rangefinders (another poor term) also use OVFs. The mirror is the essence of the 'DSLR' yet it's the part that is not mentioned at all in its own generic description or acronym. But, ironically, it somehow found its way into the current name of the new camera type that is replacing it -> 'mirrorless'.

An example in usage: The reasons to deprecate 'live view' LCD shooting are as convincing as they are numerous, if one is using an EVF camera. (see how natural the proposed term feels and sounds?)

Another: In a reduced number of circumstances 'live view' shooting can work as a partial benefit when using mirror cameras (much more clear and much easier to say than 'DSLRs').



Jan 25, 2020 at 08:02 PM
mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.14 #19 · Hogan's article - The DSLR cash cow is alive for how long?


The problem with using EVF cameras and OVF cameras is that there are still enough exceptions out there.

What do you call a Fuji X-Pro series camera? It has an EVF and an OVF. Or a Sony A99II, which has an EVF and a Mirror (and yes, Sony still does sell a couple SLT's), or a Leica M, as these days those have an OVF but support clip-on EVF's too and really is just a mirrorless body without AF and with a neat little mechanical rangefinder included.

DSLR vs Mirrorless are correctly descriptive, everybody understands what it means and quite frankly, that ship sailed somewhere back around 2012.

And frankly, I always like EVIL over Mirrorless.



Jan 25, 2020 at 10:54 PM
1       2       3              13              end




FM Forums | Nikon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              13              end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account