stgrove wrote:
Fred,
From what I hear directly from Leica is that many lenses they barely sell anymore (in like over a year) and this has happened as alternative lenses, like LLL, have come to the marketplace.
Yes, a lot of us prefer waiting a bit and buying used Leica lenses here at FM for as much as half the retail price. At this point the used Leica market might be more active than the new one. Leica should start reporting FM classifieds as a sales channel.
There's also the fact that third party manufacturers now develop lenses Leica doesn't even offer, or that outperform Leica's own due to more modern designs. A good example is the Voigtlander 28mm f/2 APO-Lanthar, and now the new 75mm f/2.8 APO and 90mm f/4 APO-Lanthar. Light Lens Lab goes even further, developing M lenses with no Leica equivalent at all, like the SP2 and Z21 series. At some point Leica may need to start competing with lenses that share its own mount. But can you imagine how much they'd ask for a 28mm f/2 Summicron-APO!
The other day I was watching one of those Leica Miami store videos, and they can't even bring themselves to say the word "Voigtlander". Since they're a Leica store, they clearly know competition is getting tough for Leica's own lenses and their prices. Still, there's a niche of buyers who will only shoot Leica. Whether that niche is shrinking or not, I honestly can't say.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, a lot of us prefer waiting a bit and buying used Leica lenses here at FM for as much as half the retail price. At this point the used Leica market might be more active than the new one. Leica should start reporting FM classifieds as a sales channel.
There's also the fact that third party manufacturers now develop lenses Leica doesn't even offer, or that outperform Leica's own due to more modern designs. A good example is the Voigtlander 28mm f/2 APO-Lanthar, and now the new 75mm f/2.8 APO and 90mm f/4 APO-Lanthar. Light Lens Lab goes even further, developing M lenses with no Leica equivalent at all, like the SP2 and Z21 series. At some point Leica may need to start competing with lenses that share its own mount. But can you imagine how much they'd ask for a 28mm f/2 Summicron-APO!
The other day I was watching one of those Leica Miami store videos, and they can't even bring themselves to say the word "Voigtlander". Since they're a Leica store, they clearly know competition is getting tough for Leica's own lenses and their prices. Still, there's a niche of buyers who will only shoot Leica. Whether that niche is shrinking or not, I honestly can't say....Show more →
A good deal of the Leica pricing feels like straight up gouging: you've got lens designs that are fundamentally pushing 20y+, like the 50 lux or 28 'cron, and when you see MSRPs ~$6k, it makes one roll their eyes, especially when mint used copies can be had for roughly half. Bear in mind that this pricing movement isn't unique to Leica - take a look at Fuji: the X-E series started as a cheap & cheerful ILC body and is now pushing $2k.
RoamingScott wrote:
As a neutral, I see too much chatter about LLL QC on this very forum to get excited about a $2000+ APO lens. The fact they excluded the knurling so they could have 2 distinct production runs is kinda oogey too.
A buyer's luck with any given new Leica M lens versus Voigtlander versus LLL is about the same these days. Leica has delivered its fair share of decentered 35 APO M lenses, so LLL can't do much worse.
highdesertmesa wrote:
A buyer's luck with any given new Leica M lens versus Voigtlander versus LLL is about the same these days. Leica has delivered its fair share of decentered 35 APO M lenses, so LLL can't do much worse.
How much easier is it to play the lottery with a Voigtlander, though?
highdesertmesa wrote:
A buyer's luck with any given new Leica M lens versus Voigtlander versus LLL is about the same these days. Leica has delivered its fair share of decentered 35 APO M lenses, so LLL can't do much worse.
I think they can, but I hope it won't be the case. It's a very complex design, not a character lens where we can excuse imperfections since they'll be more obvious here. Even with the Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar, it's not easy to find a proper copy. Leica used to be the best in testing and tolerance throughout production, but perhaps they've decided to cut corners nowadays while forgetting to cut prices accordingly.
RoamingScott wrote:
How much easier is it to play the lottery with a Voigtlander, though?
Far easier. Cosina has authorized dealers all over the world, so as long as you buy at retail, returns and exchanges are possible. LLL probably has this setup in China, but the ecommerce site is backed by some dude up in Canada. LLL HAD sales through Popflash, but that seems to have ended.
For reference: I ordered my Ti 35/1,4 and got a copy that wasn't calibrated properly, so I was getting back focusing. Had to send it to DAG and this turned the whole purchase into a near $2k expenditure.
mkuredjian wrote:
Far easier. Cosina has authorized dealers all over the world, so as long as you buy at retail, returns and exchanges are possible. LLL probably has this setup in China, but the ecommerce site is backed by some dude up in Canada. LLL HAD sales through Popflash, but that seems to have ended.
For reference: I ordered my Ti 35/1,4 and got a copy that wasn't calibrated properly, so I was getting back focusing. Had to send it to DAG and this turned the whole purchase into a near $2k expenditure.
Of course you're correct, I just wanted someone other than me to say it
Fred Miranda wrote:
The other day I was watching one of those Leica Miami store videos, and they can't even bring themselves to say the word "Voigtlander". Since they're a Leica store, they clearly know competition is getting tough for Leica's own lenses and their prices. Still, there's a niche of buyers who will only shoot Leica. Whether that niche is shrinking or not, I honestly can't say.
If that was their recent Show Us Your Kit video or whatever it was called, I noticed that, too. I like those guys a lot and have bought from them and wouldn’t hesitate to do it again, but that was a bit funny.
mgscheu wrote:
If that was their recent Show Us Your Kit video or whatever it was called, I noticed that, too. I like those guys a lot and have bought from them and wouldn’t hesitate to do it again, but that was a bit funny.
Yes, I think it was that video. They were trying too hard to convince folks to buy a 35mm f/1.4 FLE II Safari, as if it matches all the bodies so well, not just the Safari ones. Likely this lens is just sitting on the shelf due to its high price and niche market. I do want one though!
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, I think it was that video. They were trying too hard to convince folks to buy a 35mm f/1.4 FLE II Safari, as if it matches all the bodies so well, not just the Safari ones. Likely this lens is just sitting on the shelf due to its high price and niche market. I do want one though!
I'm kinda tempted by the look of the Safari M lens on SL3 Reporter. It reminds me of two colors from the same camo pattern versus clashing colors.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Leica used to be the best in testing and tolerance throughout production, but perhaps they've decided to cut corners nowadays while forgetting to cut prices accordingly.
Even with Leica lenses—especially the 35mm APO-M—there are people who send their brand-new lens straight in for service just to get the promised level of performance. Sometimes even twice, because the first service didn’t improve anything.
So Leica’s quality control doesn’t always seem to be flawless either, not even with their most expensive lenses.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, I think it was that video. They were trying too hard to convince folks to buy a 35mm f/1.4 FLE II Safari, as if it matches all the bodies so well, not just the Safari ones. Likely this lens is just sitting on the shelf due to its high price and niche market. I do want one though!
I think part of the problem is they raised prices shortly after launching the Safari models and people were already feeling the pain of inflation + tariffs at least here in the states. I (probably) wouldn't have bought mine were it not for being able to get it before US orders were shipping by buying it in Japan and saving some money due to the weak yen and no tax. Funnily enough I had the LLL Ti 35 AA with me for that trip and still used that the majority of the trip as I was slightly scared of damaging the Safari 35mm in the crowds I was in at events; a consideration due to the price.
There will always be the purists who only buy and use Leica lenses on their Leica bodies but I think a lot of people are missing out by writing off lenses simply due to being from China or perceived "copies".
If this LLL APO can truly compete with Leica's offering while being much lower in price then maybe Leica and the diehard loyalists will start to take lens competition seriously. I know I'll be ordering as soon as I can, though I am a bit bummed that if I want Ti + knurling then I'm looking at 2027 delivery.
endergemini wrote:
There will always be the purists who only buy and use Leica lenses on their Leica bodies but I think a lot of people are missing out by writing off lenses simply due to being from China or perceived "copies".
Currently, I prefer vintage lenses, including Leica and Japanese lenses from the 1950s. But there was a long time—probably 20 years—when I only bought modern Leica Lenses, incl. Noctiluxes. I think it's just a matter of personal preference.
I've talked about LLL here many times: competition is great for the consumer, but the lack of service, warranty, or even an address for a legal claim is more like a Chinese scam. Even the LLL trademark isn't registered. And the price is already quite high. For me, this brand doesn't exist; I'm simply not rich enough to buy unknown items, even if they look good.
I know for a fact that a vintage Leica (M or LTM) or Japanese brand lens from the 1950s, in new condition, is much better in quality not only than LLL, but also than a modern Leica.
Ne314satel wrote:
Currently, I prefer vintage lenses, including Leica and Japanese lenses from the 1950s. But there was a long time—probably 20 years—when I only bought modern Leica Lenses, incl. Noctiluxes. I think it's just a matter of personal preference.
I've talked about LLL here many times: competition is great for the consumer, but the lack of service, warranty, or even an address for a legal claim is more like a Chinese scam. Even the LLL trademark isn't registered. And the price is already quite high. For me, this brand doesn't exist; I'm simply not rich enough to buy unknown items, even if they look good.
I know for a fact that a vintage Leica (M or LTM) or Japanese brand lens from the 1950s, in new condition, is much better in quality not only than LLL, but also than a modern Leica....Show more →
I’m not above buying Chinese lenses, classic replicas, and I assume the quality will be good but this one definitely feels a bit like doing the wrong thing. Leica only recently came out with this lens. Even with “tweaks,” this is basically a near copy - really kills future innovation. Better to buy a voigtlander, Thypoch, or from other Chinese companies and support a company that are trying to do something different.
LLL is one of many white labels having lenses made by the DJ Optical factory. That’s why they don’t have a public address. They have a 1-year warranty and factory repair service, though.
tzhang4284 wrote:
I’m not above buying Chinese lenses, classic replicas, and I assume the quality will be good but this one definitely feels a bit like doing the wrong thing. Leica only recently came out with this lens. Even with “tweaks,” this is basically a near copy - really kills future innovation. Better to buy a voigtlander, Thypoch, or from other Chinese companies and support a company that are trying to do something different.
The new Corvette Z06/ZR1outperform the Ferrari at a fraction of the cost using the same innovations and have zero effect on sales.
If someone is seriously contemplating the Leica APO at full price, a less expensive "copy" will not sway that decision.
