p.187 #1 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
Daran wrote:
And it shows, the ones from your blind are way better;-)
Actually all in the two sets, except the buffleheads, were shot through the double pane patio door. When I shoot through the patio door, I usually use electronic shutter of the A7R4 because the birds are not moving too much. Maybe that induces some “unsharpness”? Or the A7R4 +200-600 combo is still not reliable enough? Or operator error.
p.187 #2 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
Douglas Liu wrote:
Actually all in the two sets, except the buffleheads, were shot through the double pane patio door. When I shoot through the patio door, I usually use electronic shutter of the A7R4 because the birds are not moving too much. Maybe that induces some “unsharpness”? Or the A7R4 +200-600 combo is still not reliable enough? Or operator error.
Actually I don't think it's the combo in question. Here's a shot with the A9 + 200-600 through my double-pane attic window. I was shooting down and at an angle of about 45 degrees from the perpendicular to the window. Not only is the subject soft, but you see the very strange out-of-focus areas. I haven't explored whether this is a weird thing that happens because of the OSS (I was on mode 2 here) or the autofocus or something else. Anyway, I've seen it a lot in shooting through windows at an angle, but it doesn't happen so often if I'm at an angle close to perpendicular. It's too bad, since I see a lot of interesting birds outside the house, but a lot of the shots get ruined. I actually can live with the weird "bokeh" (let's be generous and call it "painterly"!), but when it happens the subject is soft too.
p.187 #5 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
photonoclast wrote:
Actually I don't think it's the combo in question. Here's a shot with the A9 + 200-600 through my double-pane attic window. I was shooting down and at an angle of about 45 degrees from the perpendicular to the window. Not only is the subject soft, but you see the very strange out-of-focus areas. I haven't explored whether this is a weird thing that happens because of the OSS (I was on mode 2 here) or the autofocus or something else. Anyway, I've seen it a lot in shooting through windows at an angle, but it doesn't happen so often if I'm at an angle close to perpendicular. It's too bad, since I see a lot of interesting birds outside the house, but a lot of the shots get ruined. I actually can live with the weird "bokeh" (let's be generous and call it "painterly"!), but when it happens the subject is soft too....Show more →
Windows glass is far from being as smooth and perfect as optical glass. Even through my single-pane window that sort of problem occurs (but less). It becomes even worse the angle deviates from the perpendicular indeed. Considering your artifacts I would guess that looking the glass very closely you could distinguish a fabric-like structure, that our eyes-brain combo sort of deal with.
p.187 #6 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
photonoclast wrote:
Actually I don't think it's the combo in question. Here's a shot with the A9 + 200-600 through my double-pane attic window. I was shooting down and at an angle of about 45 degrees from the perpendicular to the window. Not only is the subject soft, but you see the very strange out-of-focus areas. I haven't explored whether this is a weird thing that happens because of the OSS (I was on mode 2 here) or the autofocus or something else. Anyway, I've seen it a lot in shooting through windows at an angle, but it doesn't happen so often if I'm at an angle close to perpendicular. It's too bad, since I see a lot of interesting birds outside the house, but a lot of the shots get ruined. I actually can live with the weird "bokeh" (let's be generous and call it "painterly"!), but when it happens the subject is soft too....Show more →
Thanks for chiming in. My situation may be a bit different than yours. I have two bird feeders on the top of the deck railing, about 12-14 feet from the patio door. The elevation of my camera/lens is about 2 feet higher than the bird feeders, so it's not that bad an angle. Sometimes I got very sharp pictures, sometimes I don't. It's probably operator error. Maybe I should stick with mechanical shutter for the A7RIV, until the A9III come out....
p.187 #7 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
lwan wrote:
Windows glass is far from being as smooth and perfect as optical glass. Even through my single-pane window that sort of problem occurs (but less). It becomes even worse the angle deviates from the perpendicular indeed. Considering your artifacts I would guess that looking the glass very closely you could distinguish a fabric-like structure, that our eyes-brain combo sort of deal with.
Actually it's a pretty high quality window, and no other lenses have given me this type of artifact. Of course there is always a very noticeable optical penalty to pay for shooting through a window, but it's this odd structured "bokeh" that happens. In fact, I even see this happen once in a while with this lens even when shooting normally (no window), when the subject is deep in grass or branches, although in that case the subject is often sharp. Weird.
p.187 #8 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
Douglas Liu wrote:
Thanks for chiming in. My situation may be a bit different than yours. I have two bird feeders on the top of the deck railing, about 12-14 feet from the patio door. The elevation of my camera/lens is about 2 feet higher than the bird feeders, so it's not that bad an angle. Sometimes I got very sharp pictures, sometimes I don't. It's probably operator error. Maybe I should stick with mechanical shutter for the A7RIV, until the A9III come out....
We all suffer from operator error from time to time () but I am beginning to think it is more than that. Each air/glass interface produces a 4% reflection, so each window pane gives an 8% ghost of the scene you are looking at. When you shoot at an oblique angle, that reflection is separated spatially. If you have two panes, that's two separated 8% images. The way the phase detect autofocus works, it will see around each high contrast object area (that it is trying to focus on) two other lower-contrast areas, and I think under certain circumstances it can get confused.
p.187 #9 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
I've got a question for you folks, how far away are most of your subjects?
I shoot at a number of eagle nests where I live. Using the measuring device in google maps, I'm
finding that many of the nests are about a hundred yards away, and the reason for my quest for more reach.
I'm just wondering what some of your shot distances are.
p.187 #10 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
Red Shouldered Hawk flew in for the first real snow. Not much light so slow shutter. I didn't need the 1.4x, but didn't want to stop take it off and miss getting any shot. A7r IV + 200-600mm +1.4x. ISO 500, f/9, 1/200, +.7EV. Theses were saved at 50% Quality and were cropped to portraits. Shot at 300mm x 1.4x.
p.187 #11 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
Photo cross posted in the Sony FE Image Thread and taken at 2:37 PM.
Looking at a Tricolored Heron and Reflection.
Fairly Heavily Cropped, tripod mounted 200-600mm G set to 600mm and A7rIII; silent shutter.
ISO 500, f8.0, 1/250 second.
Exposure corrected -0.29 Stops.
January 2, 2020
Along Black Point Wildlife Drive, Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge, FL.
p.187 #15 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
My friend the rough-legged hawk visits everyday now - this was taken through my "problematic" attic window this morning. The songbirds didn't seem to be concerned, so maybe it's hunting rodents and not birds and they know it. No crop except a little vertically for aspect ratio. A9+2/6+1.4TC, so I'd say it's about 30 feet away.
p.187 #19 · Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G Image Thread
photonoclast wrote:
My friend the rough-legged hawk visits everyday now - this was taken through my "problematic" attic window this morning. The songbirds didn't seem to be concerned, so maybe it's hunting rodents and not birds and they know it. No crop except a little vertically for aspect ratio. A9+2/6+1.4TC, so I'd say it's about 30 feet away.
As noted before, window glass is not optically OK. 'High quality' window glass is not even necessarily better because the characteristics that make it 'high quality' generally don't have anything to do with photographic optical quality. I've been specifying architectural components for quite a few decades and while window glass has improved optically very slightly, it has improved materially in a lot of other ways.
Shooting through a widow is most successful at something near 'normal' focal lengths; say 35-85mm. The larger the actual aperture (in mm, not relative aperture which is what the f number represents), the more problems you have, likewise with steeper ray angles, which impacts wide angles. A large aperture lens at a steep angle suffers the most. The bad bokeh is due to repetitive wavelike imperfections in the glass which are considered quite acceptable in window glass. So a 600mm lens wide open will test window glass to a high degree. If you have your window glass polished plano-parallel to the same standard as you best filters, you should have no problem. A double paned 600mm x 900mm window might cost you upwards of $5000 or maybe $10000 though and due to flexing and thermal distortions will still be probematic. It tends to be cheaper to open the window and extend the lens past the thermal turbulences to get a sharp picture.
Still a nice picture though . Not every picture has to be perfectly sharp to be effective!
. 
but I am beginning to think it is more than that. Each air/glass interface produces a 4% reflection, so each window pane gives an 8% ghost of the scene you are looking at. When you shoot at an oblique angle, that reflection is separated spatially. If you have two panes, that's two separated 8% images. The way the phase detect autofocus works, it will see around each high contrast object area (that it is trying to focus on) two other lower-contrast areas, and I think under certain circumstances it can get confused.
