p.42 #1 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
rattymouse wrote:
The iPhone can now shoot RAW photos now anyway, further eliminating the supposed advantage of the ZX1.
iPhone has been able to shoot raw for years, if you use a third party app like Halide or Lightroom Camera.
Lightroom Camera in conjunction with Lightroom/Adobe cloud subscription will let your raw iPhone images appear on your mac/PC and on your iPad all by themselves. This will be the real advantage of the Zeiss ZX1, if it works on that camera. Editing on a 4-5” screen is a fools errand in my opinion.
p.42 #2 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
bjornthun wrote:
iPhone has been able to shoot raw for years, if you use a third party app like Halide or Lightroom Camera.
Lightroom Camera in conjunction with Lightroom/Adobe cloud subscription will let your raw iPhone images appear on your mac/PC and on your iPad all by themselves. This will be the real advantage of the Zeiss ZX1, if it works on that camera. Editing on a 4-5” screen is a fools errand in my opinion.
That really does mimic cell phone functionality-- it's like having the photos you take on your cell phone just automatically getting backed up to your Google Photos cloud whenever you have a wifi connection. Only we're talking about RAW files to the LR cloud.
I wonder how quickly RAW files could get offloaded into the LR cloud via wifi in real time. Would it be fast enough to replace a tethering program?
p.42 #3 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
bjornthun wrote:
iPhone has been able to shoot raw for years, if you use a third party app like Halide or Lightroom Camera.
Lightroom Camera in conjunction with Lightroom/Adobe cloud subscription will let your raw iPhone images appear on your mac/PC and on your iPad all by themselves. This will be the real advantage of the Zeiss ZX1, if it works on that camera. Editing on a 4-5” screen is a fools errand in my opinion.
3rd party app no longer required. Apple has released RAW files for use immediately.
p.42 #4 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
rattymouse wrote:
3rd party app no longer required. Apple has released RAW files for use immediately.
Afaik, it’s limited to iPhone 12, but this is from memory. I do not have this feature on my iPhone XR, which is a couple of years old. I do have the newest version of iOS though.
p.42 #5 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
I don't know where you get this 2 megapixels BS there you go again with nonsense
Dave Sanders wrote:
I have, and I've used better phone cameras as well. It's still a small sensor camera. Image quality is equivalent to, say, my Canon 10D of 15 years ago. Higher resolution on the iPhone but lower image detail, more aberrations, worse colour, far worse tonal transitions, worse processing artifacts, etc. etc. Indeed, I have photos from the old Minolta A2 and Olympus 5050 that are similar.
Listen, I get it, it's a great camera for a phone. But it's nonsense to pretend that it even comes close to a large sensor camera. Your gallery of shots fall apart even at 2mp. ...Show more →
p.42 #6 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
AcuteShadows wrote:
Because RAW is more versatile.
I'm gonna say that someone who doesn't want to look at big screens and considers such things manual work is probably gonna be happier with JPEG profiles. No way they'll see the difference at commonly distributed resolutions.
p.42 #7 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
You already see that with more casual Fuji shooters; they love the film sims and having nice jpegs out of camera. Anyone shooting primarily on a phone will be more than happy with the phones processing. It’s actually quite incredible what kind of processing apple does to a shot almost instantly.
Dave Sanders wrote:
I'm gonna say that someone who doesn't want to look at big screens and considers such things manual work is probably gonna be happier with JPEG profiles. No way they'll see the difference at commonly distributed resolutions.
p.42 #8 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
DougDolde wrote:
I don't know where you get this 2 megapixels BS there you go again with nonsense
You gotta come to the conversation with the urge to at least exchange ideas and opinions.
Your gallery has low resolution, sub 2mp images. That downsizing hides a lot of sins...but even then, I can see mush in the corners and edges, softness, poor detail, colour aberrations, etc. If a camera or lens designed for full frame or APS-C was released in the last decade and a half with that kind of performance, it would be mercilessly ridiculed. I get it, you like your iPhone. Cool. But let's not fool ourselves about the objective performance of its lens and sensor combo. It's 'great for a phone' and you are subjectively enthralled with it, but compared to even 10+ years old large sensor cameras, it's objectively poor.
Thems the facts. Coming in and shouting 'nonsense' won't change that.
p.42 #9 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Dave Sanders wrote:
It's 'great for a phone' and you are subjectively enthralled with it, but compared to even 10+ years old large sensor cameras, it's objectively poor.
p.42 #10 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
RoamingScott wrote:
You already see that with more casual Fuji shooters; they love the film sims and having nice jpegs out of camera. Anyone shooting primarily on a phone will be more than happy with the phones processing. It’s actually quite incredible what kind of processing apple does to a shot almost instantly.
As we see multiple and even larger sensors on these smart phones plus all that AI and processing its only going to produce better and better IQ. The iPhone 12 MAX Pro now comes with a larger than normal sensor for iPhones.
p.42 #11 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
RoamingScott wrote:
You already see that with more casual Fuji shooters; they love the film sims and having nice jpegs out of camera. Anyone shooting primarily on a phone will be more than happy with the phones processing. It’s actually quite incredible what kind of processing apple does to a shot almost instantly.
This. This is why the ZX1 is such a miss, IMO. They went through the trouble of making a somewhat connected camera...and used it to put in LR to process RAW. It doesn't even have JPEG profiles! Anybody who thinks this is designed for the 'smartphone set' doesn't understand them. They largely don't know what RAW is and certainly the large majority don't have the urge to find out and learn to process it. As you rightly point out, they are used to very sophisticated processing that happens instantaneously. Even when uploading to instagram...the filters are there...click, look, click the next one, upload. Fuji film simulations are much more up their alley.
The type of person who wants to fiddle with RAW is, well, someone like me. I'd much rather do that fiddling on a device better suited for it. For my quick and dirty field stuff, I just use the JPEG out of camera...tap my phone to my camera, it transfers. I hit a few sliders and post. I do this while I wait for dark frames. All I really wanted for Christmas was a slick Sony app that allowed me to transfer files easily and seamlessly to my phone. Given what we're seeing from Apple's M1 chip...I'm dreaming of an iPad Pro with an M1 variant, then when I'm on a dedicated photo trip, I can likely just take an iPad to edit. Again, allow me to get files to a better device. If I care about an image, I want to give it the care in post it deserves. 6 sliders on a clunky device and a small screen isn't it.
p.42 #12 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
bjornthun wrote:
Afaik, it’s limited to iPhone 12, but this is from memory. I do not have this feature on my iPhone XR, which is a couple of years old. I do have the newest version of iOS though.
p.42 #13 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
LBJ2 wrote:
As we see multiple and even larger sensors on these smart phones plus all that AI and processing its only going to produce better and better IQ. The iPhone 12 MAX Pro now comes with a larger than normal sensor for iPhones.
Yes, but we're still years away from seeing a smart device that hits even entry level image quality. Objectively, they're poor in comparison. However, everything else that comes with the camera...the connectivity, the apps, etc., makes the experience worthwhile. I think it was the iPhone Xs and Google Pixel 2XL that finally hit the 'good enough' spot for me. For things that that I know I'm just going to Snap, send on WhatsApp, make an Instagram story...they work just fine.
I used to wonder when we'd see a smartphone company focus on a truly camera-centric phone. The ones that came out didn't widely sell because most people just don't care about absolute IQ. There's always a tradeoff when it comes to the core purpose of the device such as size, holdability, functionality, etc. So what has happened is smartphone makers have began to justify premiums for their top devices by focussing on cameras more and more. Good for us, I think. They're getting better.
But ultimately, IQ is still at small sensor levels. So, for me, the best of both worlds would be just allowing me to get files to my phone. I have the IQ of my camera and the power and connectivity of my phone.
p.42 #14 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Dave Sanders wrote:
Yes, but we're still years away from seeing a smart device that hits even entry level image quality. Objectively, they're poor in comparison. However, everything else that comes with the camera...the connectivity, the apps, etc., makes the experience worthwhile. I think it was the iPhone Xs and Google Pixel 2XL that finally hit the 'good enough' spot for me. For things that that I know I'm just going to Snap, send on WhatsApp, make an Instagram story...they work just fine.
I used to wonder when we'd see a smartphone company focus on a truly camera-centric phone. The ones that came out didn't widely sell because most people just don't care about absolute IQ. There's always a tradeoff when it comes to the core purpose of the device such as size, holdability, functionality, etc. So what has happened is smartphone makers have began to justify premiums for their top devices by focussing on cameras more and more. Good for us, I think. They're getting better.
But ultimately, IQ is still at small sensor levels. So, for me, the best of both worlds would be just allowing me to get files to my phone. I have the IQ of my camera and the power and connectivity of my phone. ...Show more →
...and these few samples are just a drop in the bucket..
p.42 #15 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
LBJ2 wrote:
"Entry Level" is the fastest thing from my mind's eye when I view some of these images...and these few samples are just a drop in the bucket..
Why? Great composition but the IQ is terrible, even at that resolution. Edge definition is awful, there's noise in even slight shadow and tonal transitions are poor. That photo would look better if it was taken with a 10 year old Canon Rebel and kit lens.
EDIT: What I'm saying is, let's not confuse absolute, objective image quality for 'I got a great shot because I had a camera with me'. Composition is composition, and great composition always makes for compelling photos. That is a compelling photo. But absolute IQ is poor.
p.42 #16 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Dave Sanders wrote:
Why? Great composition but the IQ is terrible, even at that resolution. Edge definition is awful, there's noise in even slight shadow and tonal transitions are poor. That photo would look better if it was taken with a 10 year old Canon Rebel and kit lens.
EDIT: What I'm saying is, let's not confuse absolute, objective image quality for 'I got a great shot because I had a camera with me'. Composition is composition, and great composition always makes for compelling photos. That is a compelling photo. But absolute IQ is poor.
"...the IQ is terrible, even at that resolution. Edge definition is awful, there's noise in even slight shadow and tonal transitions are poor."
You are one tough cookie Mister Dave Sanders. But okay we are chatting on a camera gear thread.
p.42 #17 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
LBJ2 wrote:
"...the IQ is terrible, even at that resolution. Edge definition is awful, there's noise in even slight shadow and tonal transitions are poor."
You are one tough cookie Mister Dave Sanders. But okay!
Hahaha I'm just saying, from an absolute IQ standpoint, the cameras in our smart devices still produce IQ equivalent to small sensor digicams
Now, are we seeing amazing photos taken with smart phones? Sure, because lots of creative, artistic folk who have no urge to learn how to use a camera are able to carry one in their pocket and snap photos. Would those photos be much better if taken with a proper camera? Absolutely. Would that person carry one and get that shot? Likely not. It's a bit of a catch 22.
I'm just realistic about what the output from a smart phone looks like. I use mine all the time. It's become my go to device for 'memories' type shots. Instantaneous cloud backup is awesome. This is why I'd like to see someone develop an app that really lets me leverage that.
p.42 #18 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Dave Sanders wrote:
This. This is why the ZX1 is such a miss, IMO. They went through the trouble of making a somewhat connected camera...and used it to put in LR to process RAW. It doesn't even have JPEG profiles! Anybody who thinks this is designed for the 'smartphone set' doesn't understand them. They largely don't know what RAW is and certainly the large majority don't have the urge to find out and learn to process it. As you rightly point out, they are used to very sophisticated processing that happens instantaneously. Even when uploading to instagram...the filters are there...click, look, click the next one, upload. Fuji film simulations are much more up their alley.
The type of person who wants to fiddle with RAW is, well, someone like me. I'd much rather do that fiddling on a device better suited for it. For my quick and dirty field stuff, I just use the JPEG out of camera...tap my phone to my camera, it transfers. I hit a few sliders and post. I do this while I wait for dark frames. All I really wanted for Christmas was a slick Sony app that allowed me to transfer files easily and seamlessly to my phone. Given what we're seeing from Apple's M1 chip...I'm dreaming of an iPad Pro with an M1 variant, then when I'm on a dedicated photo trip, I can likely just take an iPad to edit. Again, allow me to get files to a better device. If I care about an image, I want to give it the care in post it deserves. 6 sliders on a clunky device and a small screen isn't it.
p.42 #19 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Dave Sanders wrote:
I'm gonna say that someone who doesn't want to look at big screens and considers such things manual work is probably gonna be happier with JPEG profiles. No way they'll see the difference at commonly distributed resolutions.
For many post-processing modifications, you don't need to pixel peep. Applying Lightroom presets or recovering information in shades and highlights is often possible without looking at details, but is not possible with a JPEG file.
As these pictures display a lot of oversharpening, excessive vibrance (i.e. oversaturation of low saturation details), and a number of artefacts (especially color artefacts in areas with lots of details like tree branches), your work would clearly benefit from using a dedicated camera.
