p.16 #1 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
LeifG wrote:
It does seem as if dpreview have an anti-Nikon agenda, as they must realise what they are doing.
You know the weird thing is, normally I would write it off, and I hate to sound like the wack job conspiracy theory person, but I'd almost have to agree with the anti Nikon thing.
I'm even noticing on other forums how people are just discounting the camera because it can't do XYZ feature, or it doesn't have this function or doesn't track focus like a D5.
I think what Nikon has done for a first gen product is pretty good. Image quality is just as good as the D850 from what I'm seeing. Sure AF-C might not be blazing fast, but once again not bad for the first go round. The banding I really think is a non issue.
All in all, I really think the Z7 is a great camera.
p.16 #2 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
Lee Saxon wrote:
I'm skeptical of how far we can assume the former from the latter. MILC assembly is way more automated than DSLR assembly, they could just be able to build them a lot faster.
Not pure assumption, but not in depth knowledge either. I have spoken to three different camera stores about this and they all said that there were not as many pre-orders, and that they have all received some returns and cancellations.
I agree that the banding should not be a deal killer on this camera. For me, it was the focus issues, which are very real. Those of you who have the camera, read page 57 of your manual fo some Nikon tracking limits of this camera.
Here is a guy whose testing, and reasons to return the camera pretty much matches mine.
p.16 #3 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
You know this - how?
From what I understand, there are many hands building the Nikon Z's
Whereas Canon build and calibrate entry level DSLRs and kit lenses by robot.
There is no reason both could not be entirely automated. But the cost of the development of the robots and programming them could turn out much costlier than having people do it.
Lee Saxon wrote:
I'm skeptical of how far we can assume the former from the latter. MILC assembly is way more automated than DSLR assembly, they could just be able to build them a lot faster.
p.16 #4 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
I volunteered today to do some headshots at work and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in regards to face detection. The z7 would track the a face without pressing the Ok, but would still need to focus onto the subject but the face was tracked. Keep in mind the framed shot consisted of a single person.
If someone can confirm/validate that would be great, I want to duplicate this again.
p.16 #5 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
1bwana1 wrote:
Not pure assumption, but not in depth knowledge either. I have spoken to three different camera stores about this and they all said that there were not as many pre-orders, and that they have all received some returns and cancellations.
I agree that the banding should not be a deal killer on this camera. For me, it was the focus issues, which are very real. Those of you who have the camera, read page 57 of your manual fo some Nikon tracking limits of this camera.
Here is a guy whose testing, and reasons to return the camera pretty much matches mine.
I totally agree with all of the points that you brought up and echo the exact same sentiments and experiences. I actually received four calls on Monday from the dealers that I was waitlisted at--including Murphy's Camera and Rockbrook--to let me know that they had units in stock. Some of those units were returned and open box, whereas others were cancellations of pre-orders.
p.16 #6 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
What are you basing that on?
From everything that’s been reported, the main bottleneck is sensors.
Lee Saxon wrote:
I'm skeptical of how far we can assume the former from the latter. MILC assembly is way more automated than DSLR assembly, they could just be able to build them a lot faster.
p.16 #7 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
Also interestingly I’m already seeing quite a few Z7s in the wild with pros. Shooting some stuff at the geekwire summit in Seattle, and I’ve seen 2 here (one still shooter and one video run and gunner), and my NFL shooter friend who’s a Nikon ambassador is already using his for candida and stuff
p.16 #8 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
ilkka_nissila wrote:
You know this - how?
From what I understand, there are many hands building the Nikon Z's
Whereas Canon build and calibrate entry level DSLRs and kit lenses by robot.
There is no reason both could not be entirely automated. But the cost of the development of the robots and programming them could turn out much costlier than having people do it.
I’m pretty sure I read that the level of automation in the Z camera assembly is higher than for similar DLR units, maybe 70% versus 50%. Not sure where I read that and searching is time consuming. But it makes sense, as for example aligning a 100% optical viewfinder is non trivial, and the AF is usually slightly off for a DSLR. Also the mirrorless cameras are cheaper to make due to the absence of mirror assembly, AF module and optical vierfinder, and the associated alignment operations, according to Thom Hogan who has a lot of industry contacts, so it should be reliable information. That is in a recent article on his site, not sure which one.
As regards cost of manufacturing, they would not use robots if it cost more, and the cost of a robot is largely upfront and one off, so the more you make, the cheaper it gets unlike manual workers.
p.16 #10 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
"Comparing to DSLR, the Z7 is smaller and more compact. What are the challenges in assembly?
A: The mechanical parts are about the same. Of course, newer parts are smaller, thus harder to assemble."
The optical assembly of the Z7 EVF seems quite complex. Of course it doesn't move so in that sense maybe easier.
Since camera sales are overall on a decline and individual models have a short life it is not clear to me that automation of high end product assembly will increase.
Also since the mirrorless camera sensor requires fast read times for fast AF, EVF and silent shutter (to fulfill the expectation), there are additional costs of development on that side as well, not required for DSLR.
p.16 #11 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
Also, Roger Cicala when he tore down the A7r (though MILC with IBIS are surely somewhat more complex) : "The completely disassembled Sony A7R consists of about a dozen major pieces, held together with 29 screws of just three different sizes. A typical DSLR has around 120 screws of 11 different sizes."
p.16 #12 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
You seem to have missed the fact that automation on the Z cameras HAS increased. Also assembly of a DSLR is not just an optical viewfinder. There is the mirror, the Fresnel screen, the optical lens assembly in the OVF, the pentaprism, and the AF sensor. There is also an electronic overlay in the OVF to provide the display info. All parts cost money, and have to be critically aligned. That is why only prosumer and higher DSLR cameras have a 100% VF for example, and the number of AF points increases with price point. Apparently Canon we’re getting annoyed at the cost of people sending in cameras for AF calibration which is why in camera methods appeared.
Anyway, do you have evidence for any of your assertions, or are they simply assumptions? Do you dispute the statement from Nikon regarding automation percentages?
p.16 #13 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
Since there are Z7's in the wild I no longer just read limited reviews but from people I know and trust their experiences as photographers. There are many reviews but keep them in their true context. Then there are those that continually review reviews and don't actually own a Z7.
I know quite a few photographers and they are silent have adopted the Z7 and loving it for both personal and professional work. Most who have the Z7 also need the video functionality with IBIS.
The truth is the EOS-R for Canon photographers will also be a great MILC alongside in spite of the banding and other perceived issues. The issue of IBIS seems to be addressed by lenses incorporating vibration reduction in the lens design but of course it just depends on your style of photography.
Personally I love the D850 and will be one of the best FF body for some time. The ergonomics of the D850 with fast lenses is very counter intuitive and feels great with fast lenses yet the Z7 will be wonderful addition alongside. I am seeing amazing video clips where the AF just works flawlessly. The Z7 was never targeted against the D500/D5/D850. The 24-70S is proving to be amazing and if the 35/50S are similar for many photographers this will all that is needed at least for travel.
The banding issue I feel is over blown. FF MILC are prone to PDAF visibility/banding and it will appear under differing extreme conditions. I have pushed RAW shots +5 and +6 and no banding but I am sure it is there under certain conditions. I remember for the Sony's it was big issue when it was mentioned but you do not hear much about it now. Instead you have a lot of color noise for similar EV pushing of RAW files within the shadows. There is no free lunch
p.16 #14 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
webmstrk9 wrote:
I volunteered today to do some headshots at work and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in regards to face detection. The z7 would track the a face without pressing the Ok, but would still need to focus onto the subject but the face was tracked. Keep in mind the framed shot consisted of a single person.
If someone can confirm/validate that would be great, I want to duplicate this again.
Likewise when I tested the 24-70s, 105E, 58G and 28E, I used AF-C and AUTO for a sequence of taking shots of people and I did not have to press OK and it tracked great. I suspect when you push AF-C on the initial subject it tracks appropriately.
p.16 #15 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
charles.K wrote:
I suspect when you push AF-C on the initial subject it tracks appropriately.
Which makes sense, because if you have more than one face in the shot, you need to show it what to track. If you have an adult with a big head and a child that's closer and are shooting wide open, then they likely can't both be within the DoF (in certain cases).
It's a totally new camera with redesigned features that I suspect people are expecting to function like their DSLRs. It's a bit like the "broken" D5/D500 Dynamic AF "issue".
p.16 #16 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
la puffin wrote:
It's a bit like the "broken" D5/D500 Dynamic AF "issue".
You mean the dynamic focusing effup in the D500/D5 that degraded performance, news of which caught so many D500/D5 users by surprise because they didn't understand how dynamic focusing worked in earlier iterations? That issue?
p.16 #19 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
charles.K wrote:
Since there are Z7's in the wild I no longer just read limited reviews but from people I know and trust their experiences as photographers. There are many reviews but keep them in their true context. Then there are those that continually review reviews and don't actually own a Z7.
I know quite a few photographers and they are silent have adopted the Z7 and loving it for both personal and professional work. Most who have the Z7 also need the video functionality with IBIS.
The truth is the EOS-R for Canon photographers will also be a great MILC alongside in spite of the banding and other perceived issues. The issue of IBIS seems to be addressed by lenses incorporating vibration reduction in the lens design but of course it just depends on your style of photography.
Personally I love the D850 and will be one of the best FF body for some time. The ergonomics of the D850 with fast lenses is very counter intuitive and feels great with fast lenses yet the Z7 will be wonderful addition alongside. I am seeing amazing video clips where the AF just works flawlessly. The Z7 was never targeted against the D500/D5/D850. The 24-70S is proving to be amazing and if the 35/50S are similar for many photographers this will all that is needed at least for travel.
The banding issue I feel is over blown. FF MILC are prone to PDAF visibility/banding and it will appear under differing extreme conditions. I have pushed RAW shots +5 and +6 and no banding but I am sure it is there under certain conditions. I remember for the Sony's it was big issue when it was mentioned but you do not hear much about it now. Instead you have a lot of color noise for similar EV pushing of RAW files within the shadows. There is no free lunch
I suppose it's not the most constructive thing to say, but I still feel like people that routinely have to push shadows by +5 stops to save an image should probably pick up another hobby, and if you're doing it for paid work - you should be ashamed of yourself
p.16 #20 · Official Z Series Camera and Lens Discussion
sungphoto wrote:
I suppose it's not the most constructive thing to say, but I still feel like people that routinely have to push shadows by +5 stops to save an image should probably pick up another hobby, and if you're doing it for paid work - you should be ashamed of yourself
I appreciate some landscape photographers who need to push the shadows routinely but I would not expect to be pushing any more than +2 or +3 max +4. If you need to push +5/+6 the image ends up very average at best. It is much better to stack a few shots in these instances.
The amount of banding if it appears at +5/+6 it is very discrete and using a program like Nik Dfine2 readily comes with Nik package and it is only 20 sec in post remove without affecting the detail or DR. It is so effective and you only need to decide whether you have horizontal or vertical banding and just turn off all the noise/color reduction. I have used this program with Canon/Leica/Sony/Fuji previously. Knowing you have this ability allows more flexibility if your want push shadows past the extremes!
My take as I mentioned above is that banding/PDAF lines are unique to MILC and in particular FF and will present under extreme lighting/shadows. Sony has this issue but I suspect it removes this as part of the pre baked processing of RAW's so it is not apparent to the same extent. Instead we see more color noise/less detail but no apparent banding so it appears that is it pre-filtered as a RAW. Nikon may choose to address this via FW but it may be at the expense of detail and color noise. This pre-baked RAW filter may be related to the Sony star eater issues
