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Archive 2017 · Leica 'M10"

  
 
bvphotos
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p.10 #1 · Leica 'M10"


Somewhat tangential to the above discussion, I wonder how many would-be buyers of the M10 are now considering the GFX at the same price-point. I know, 2 totally different cameras, but getting an MF camera at the same price as the M10 could be awfully tempting for many.


Jan 19, 2017 at 06:24 PM
recordproducti
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p.10 #2 · Leica 'M10"


The new M10 looks ok but nothing that will make me trade my M240. If I traded my M240 to get the new M10 the amount of cash I'd have to spend would be nearly £3,000 - I could get some nice glass for that money


Jan 19, 2017 at 06:45 PM
goosemang
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p.10 #3 · Leica 'M10"




Surfnsun wrote:
Steve Huff just released his quick review on the M10. Looks like a great camera!



Woah woah woah

STEVE HUFF likes a new camera??



Jan 19, 2017 at 07:48 PM
davewolfs
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p.10 #4 · Leica 'M10"


Has Steve ever not loved anything ?


Jan 19, 2017 at 08:18 PM
rscheffler
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p.10 #5 · Leica 'M10"


Steve,

I would hope the M10 sensor cover is more along the lines of the M240 because that would degrade performance with some relatively new M wides, such as the 21 SEM and I assume also the 18 and 24.

rscheffler wrote:
From my limited trials with an SL I was disappointed that my 21 SEM and 28 Cron (first version) did not perform as well in respect to edge sharpness, as on the M240.

snowboarder wrote:
I haven't paid much attention, but this is new and pretty disappointing to me...
If a mini-SL is really a version of SL camera and sensor, there is no choice for those 2 lenses
which I own and like and want to use more often - but get the new M10.


Andrew, you should go to the LA Leica Store and ask to try their SL with your lenses. During my visit they were very accommodating... basically you can play with anything on display, do test photos, wander around the store with it, and they'll escort you out in the parking lot for outside photos. Maybe the SF store is similar (don't recall where in CA you're located).

It will depend on how critical you are... but what I saw was that those two lenses did not perform as well on the SL as on the M240. Maybe not unusable, but I could see a difference and was disappointed.



Jan 19, 2017 at 08:29 PM
davewolfs
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p.10 #6 · Leica 'M10"


I like the M button. Its like the M button on an M series BMW. Remembering your settings and jumping to them. EVF adjustment seems to be very easy.


Jan 19, 2017 at 08:31 PM
rscheffler
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p.10 #7 · Leica 'M10"


bvphotos wrote:
Somewhat tangential to the above discussion, I wonder how many would-be buyers of the M10 are now considering the GFX at the same price-point. I know, 2 totally different cameras, but getting an MF camera at the same price as the M10 could be awfully tempting for many.


This question was posed by The Online Photographer. I haven't since re-read all the comments but the initial responses were heavily in favor of Fuji... which IMO is the logical response. With the Fuji you get more for your money. Bigger sensor, AF, more affordable system expansion, more impressive spec sheet. This is where Leica almost always loses - based on virtual spec-sheet shopping, Leica will usually fall flat in comparison. It just doesn't make cold, logical sense when it's your money on the line.

But I would take the Leica (surprise). I have little interest in a boxy, bulky camera with large lenses based around a system that offers subjectively marginal image quality improvements over FF. OK, 50MP is significant over 24MP, but if I really wanted 50MP, I could just buy a Canon 5DS for ~$3500 for my existing Canon system. With the Fuji, it's $6500 for the body and likely at least that much more for a few lenses. I think the Fuji mini MF makes more sense for those using APS-C looking for a significant jump in image quality.



Jan 19, 2017 at 08:43 PM
tzhang4284
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p.10 #8 · Leica 'M10"


davewolfs wrote:
Has Steve ever not loved anything ?


Id actually love to understand what sort of cash incentives or perks camera companies give reviewers for their products. Some cameras...not going to name names....get way more love from reviewers than they deserve. The dpreview writer on the m10 basically said that they were not / still not in all likelihood allowed to write negative reviews of leica products.



Jan 19, 2017 at 09:32 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.10 #9 · Leica 'M10"


Steve Spencer wrote:
What we do know is that Leica made new versions of the M 28 cron ASPH, the M 28 elmarit ASPH, and the M 35 cron ASPH last year to make them "more compatible with digital." I always thought those revisions were so that the new lenses would work better with the upcoming M10. I suspect that if you have the older versions of these lenses, you might not be fully happy with their performance on the M10. That is just a guess, however. We shall see before too long I am sure.

Edit: Said another way, I think the
...Show more
According to my information the cover glass is designed for maximum performance with M glass. I don't think Leica would have went into the trouble of redesigning the toppings and microlenses of the SL sensor and would have used it unchanged if that was the case.

Edited on Jan 19, 2017 at 10:43 PM · View previous versions



Jan 19, 2017 at 10:31 PM
snappu
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p.10 #10 · Leica 'M10"


bvphotos wrote:
Somewhat tangential to the above discussion, I wonder how many would-be buyers of the M10 are now considering the GFX at the same price-point. I know, 2 totally different cameras, but getting an MF camera at the same price as the M10 could be awfully tempting for many.


I'm no longer interested in anything bigger or heavier than a Leica M system. The weight limit is 1kg for a camera body + fast lens. That excludes all Nikon, Canon, and Sony fullframe systems, and I'm left with the Leica M for fullframe and Fuji X system for APS-C. Medium format is not even a consideration.



Jan 19, 2017 at 10:40 PM
davewolfs
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p.10 #11 · Leica 'M10"


If I wanted a huge bag of gear and big lenses I would go back to a Nikon and some zooms.

This is exactly why I wouldn't do a DSLR, SL or Fuji. For that time where the large sensor makes a big difference which would be far and few. I'd rather rent.

If I did enough landscape - I would definitely go MF over FF.

I'd say the X1D is a bit unique given its large sensor and small size.



Jan 19, 2017 at 11:03 PM
Alpha_Geist
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p.10 #12 · Leica 'M10"


I broke down and pre-ordered the M10. The deal breaker for me was the viewfinder. The larger diameter and eye relief would help me as a glasses wearer see the 28mm frame lines. I will greatly appreciate the larger (.73x) viewfinder. The other major selling point is the high ISO performance with no banding. All the other items (smaller body, simplified menu, ISO wheel, etc.) are nice but not as important to me compared to the viewfinder and banding at higher ISOs. So much for being satisfied with my 262.

Anyone else pre-order or get their mittens on one already?



Jan 19, 2017 at 11:42 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.10 #13 · Leica 'M10"


Good move, Adam! I will be looking forward to hearing your opinion. I didn't pre-order one, but I don't think that I will be able to resist once it's available at my local store


Jan 19, 2017 at 11:51 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.10 #14 · Leica 'M10"


edwardkaraa wrote:
According to my information the cover glass is designed for maximum performance with M glass. I don't think Leica would have went into the trouble of redesigning the toppings and microlenses of the SL sensor and would have used it unchanged if that was the case.


I am not sure where you got your information, but I think the statement is pretty ambiguous. I am sure that the cover glass was designed for maximum performance with M glass, but which M glass? Certainly not with the older version of the M cron ASPH. This lens was designed for film, so maximum performance with this lens would be no cover glass. I think it is most likely that the sensor cover and micro lenses were designed for maximum performance with the currently shipping M lenses. This is a different design that if they tried to maximize performance with older lenses. Specifically I would expect that the cover glass and micro lenses were designed for maximum performance with the new 28 cron ASPH, the new 28 elmarit ASPH, and the new 35 cron ASPH and not to maximize performance with the older versions of these lenses. All I am saying is that the older versions of these lenses might not perform as well as some people might like. This could very well be true even if as I suspect the M10 works better with these older lenses than the SL. Comparisons with the M240 will have to await testing. I don't know if the M10 will be better or worse with older M lenses. My guess is that it won't be simple. It will be better with some and worse with others, but we will have to wait to see how those tests pan out.



Jan 20, 2017 at 12:29 AM
Alpha_Geist
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p.10 #15 · Leica 'M10"


edwardkaraa wrote:
Good move, Adam! I will be looking forward to hearing your opinion. I didn't pre-order one, but I don't think that I will be able to resist once it's available at my local store


I am excited! I don't know yet what the expected timeframe will be until I have one in hand. I've read that some places (was it Leica Miami or another Leica store?) already have limited stock. I'm bummed about the smaller battery.l as I wish I could use the same 240 battery though. I'll be sure to share photos and my impressions when it arrives. Now to decide whether to keep the 262 or sell it.

As far as lenses to test, I have the latest 28 elmarit and 35 summicron. The other lenses are the "older" 50 cron (current version), 75 APO, 90 summarit 2.4 and Zeiss 35/2.8 c-biogon. I don't have the older 28mm or 35mm lenses to compare against their newer brethren though.



Jan 20, 2017 at 12:57 AM
uhoh7
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p.10 #16 · Leica 'M10"


@Jon
Yes, I'm too skeptical. I bet the lossless is fine. My credulity was somewhat smeared by Sony, Ironic since almost certainly that will be my next camera, with mod.

Adam, I'd love to have one too. It's done so well. ISO 6400, jeez if true that is huge. The new finder...I drool. Shutter meant to be fantastic. Battery.....if it's as good as M9 it's alot better than A7. We'll see. After using RX1r2 and Fuji XT2 I now know what truly TERRIBLE battery life is like. Price is actually good considering what you get and how many they will make.

Right now Leica is killing it really. S 007, Q, SL, and now M10. Those are superb cameras. Who makes all that stuff for them? I was pretty impressed the SL was easy to find. Let's hope the M10 is not too hard to get like M9 and 240 started out.

The profile effectiveness on older lenses is what I am very curious about. Frankly I don't think Leica is specing microlenses, they are already offset in all modern sensors I think. So there are just two factors: the IR cut glass type and thickness and the processor. There are some new Schott options which supposedly can be thinner than the .8mm in the 240, but I am a little skeptical since the curves are not as nice. But they may well be able to get more help from the processor, which the Sony A7 design team claimed years ago was possible. The Q has all kinds of processor help for it's lens. I want to see the pre-asph 21/2.8 on the M10, and there are some others. As to the new "digital lenses". Jury is out. 28 cron v2 has had serious copy variation. There have been some very friendly lenses, top of the wide list are the SEM 18 and 28 Lux. The SEM 24 is not friendly, nor the 35 Cron asph or 28 elmarit, but they are at least mostly corrected already. You can tell pretty easy which are which by how they work on the Kolari, which still has .7mm of clear glass more than the 240. Kasson found the SEM 18 on Kolaro equal, as did DigiLLoyd, who also said the 28 Lux was basically the same with his A7r2 test Solari.

Put claims it's the processor alone which is boosting the ISO performance above the SL. So there may be some room to also put that to work and clean things up enough to notice with the "film lenses" on M10, and supposedly they spent alot of time on just that. After all it's "Willi", the new M3

People do not seem to drastically care about the 24mp current limit. I first thought 42 was going to be a big trade, but the RX1r2 showed me the Sony BSI sensor is really something, usable to 6400 and making files which edit like a dream in LR. Would make a fantastic M sensor, with just the IR cover like Leica has used in all it's digital M. Also solves the video heat issues. It's why I will do a mod over a new M. But the 42 number is bit misleading, since at that size things are not clean. It's when you bring those files down a bit that they really sing. I wonder exactly where that point is, 36mp? or 30 maybe.

As to the Fuji MF. Would be a very nice thing to have lying around. But not very practical for me. Let's see how long they can stay out of the FF market--a while I suspect since they are making a fortune in APS-C and have everyone hypnotised with their "emulations", and nice little primes. Who will be next with a mirrorless FF? A9 coming, going to be too big, I bet. Konost, that will be a little cult hit, you watch.

Canikon.....would be so fun to bug the meetings. Have they drawn anything? Which one will go first?

Leica's new mini-SL....myth or reality.... Just imagine something a bit more lean than original A7 with build of SL...yum. I will just be plodding about with M9 and A7r2.mod2. And my favorite lenses, which is what I really care about and still must control myself in acquiring..

For those who do go forward, the M10 will be a real treat: simply more a pleasure to use than any CRF to date. Luigi must be hard at work, getting ready



Jan 20, 2017 at 01:22 AM
Mike Tuomey
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p.10 #17 · Leica 'M10"


In my limited way of seeing things, I want a mongrel Leica: an interchangeable lens version of the Q taking M lenses well. Maybe that's the mini-SL.

M10 gets ever closer to the "digital M7" desire of one segment of M shooters. Not worth another $3k or so over the price of a used M240 to me, but still very desirable.



Jan 20, 2017 at 10:02 AM
Robin Smith
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p.10 #18 · Leica 'M10"


That excludes all Nikon, Canon, and Sony fullframe systems

Canon 5DIV + EF 50/1.4 1090g, Sony A7RII + 50 FE 906g. M10+ 50mm Summicron 900g

Pretty close, is this really a significant difference? Sony's the same weight.



Jan 20, 2017 at 10:54 AM
Gary Clennan
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p.10 #19 · Leica 'M10"


Does anyone here subscribe to LFI magazine? I swear I read in the last issue some sort of vague statement that a mini-SL would probably not happen. I could be mistaken though.... Will have to check tonight.


Jan 20, 2017 at 12:36 PM
snappu
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p.10 #20 · Leica 'M10"


Robin Smith wrote:
Canon 5DIV + EF 50/1.4 1090g, Sony A7RII + 50 FE 906g. M10+ 50mm Summicron 900g

Pretty close, is this really a significant difference? Sony's the same weight.


You forgot to quote the first two sentences of my post.

snappu wrote:
I'm no longer interested in anything bigger or heavier than a Leica M system. The weight limit is 1kg for a camera body + fast lens. That excludes all Nikon, Canon, and Sony fullframe systems,


The size factor excludes any other FF alternative. As for the weight:

Leica M10 - 660g
35 summilux - 320g, total 980g
50 summilux - 335g, total 995g

Canon 5d mk4 - 800g
ef 35/1.4 - 760g, total 1560g
ef 50/1.4 - 290g, total 1090g

Sony A7ii -556g
fe 35/1.4 - 630g, 1186g
fe 50/1.4 - 778g, 1334g



Jan 20, 2017 at 01:14 PM
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