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Archive 2017 · Leica 'M10"

  
 
Alpha_Geist
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p.11 #1 · Leica 'M10"


Small update.

I was able to get some hands on time with a demo M10 at my (somewhat) local Leica dealer. Paired with a 50/2 (non APO), the new M10 is definitely slimmer and felt like I was holding my M6, only a tad heavier. The startup time seemed the same as my 262. I could not distinguish if it was really faster or not. Mass wise, the camera felt about the same as my 262. Not too big of a difference. The most obvious difference was how it felt in hand (slimmer) rather than the mass of the camera.

Menu
The menu system exists solely on one screen. Gone are the multiple scrollable (primary, secondary, tertiary...) menu screens. Everything is accessible from the primary menu screen. This is not accounting for the My Favorites screen, which I didn't bother messing with.

LED lights
As you have seen, there are two LED lights on the back of the camera above and below the three LV/Play/Menu buttons. The bottom light flashes when a picture is being recorded as well as when the camera is initially turned on. The sales rep said he wasn't sure what the upper LED light was for. I thought it was interesting and wanted to share if anyone wondered the same. Anyone here know the purpose of the upper LED light?

Viewfinder
The viewfinder is larger and was much easier for me to see through with my glasses. It also appeared brighter than than the 246/262 viewfinder because of this.

ISO wheel/knob
I had a bit of trouble popping up the ISO wheel to unlock the ISO scroll/selection. This is fine as you won't have to worry about accidentally changing the ISO. For my use, I expect to leave the wheel popped up so that I may easily change the ISO on the fly. I would recommend putting the ISO wheel back down when putting the camera away. While it was convenient to change the ISO by turning its knob, I felt like there was enough tension to keep the knob from turning accidentally. Moving the ISO selection off the back of the camera and onto the top makes switching the ISO much more natural. You don't have to take your eye away from the VF.

Live View
The most significant upgrade to LV was being able to move the focus point while zoomed in. With focus peaking and all!!! I was ecstatic to see this implemented in the M. You are no longer limited to the central portion of the screen when focusing under LV. Woot!!!

Shutter
Shutter felt crisp. No real discernible difference to my aging ears.

Thumbs Up
Unfortunately, the current 240 Thumbs Up grips aren't the right size for use on the M10. So for those who love the Thumbs Up grips (me included), you will have to purchase the official Leica version of wait for Match Technical to update their Tumbs Up design for the M10.

Availability
I was told that the store I visited will have around +30 M10s arriving sometime next week as today (of writing this), the cameras are being shipped out from Germany. I'm stoked to be able to have an M10 in my possession next week at the earliest.



Jan 20, 2017 at 01:47 PM
sebboh
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p.11 #2 · Leica 'M10"


snappu wrote:
You forgot to quote the first two sentences of my post.

The size factor excludes any other FF alternative. As for the weight:

Leica M10 - 660g
35 summilux - 320g, total 980g
50 summilux - 335g, total 995g

Canon 5d mk4 - 800g
ef 35/1.4 - 760g, total 1560g
ef 50/1.4 - 290g, total 1090g

Sony A7ii -556g
fe 35/1.4 - 630g, 1186g
fe 50/1.4 - 778g, 1334g


agreed, but:
Sony A7rII - 625g
FE 55/1.8 - 281g, total 906g
FE 28/2 - 200g, total 825g
35 summilux - 320g + adapter - 54g, total 999g
50 summilux - 335g, + adapter 54g, total 1014g

this is lighter, smaller in most dimensions, and cheaper. to use m-glass on the a7rII you need an extra $500 for the sensor mod and the total will weigh a whole 19g more or 60g less if you go with the a7II.

i understand wanting to use an m camera more, but the smaller lighter argument doesn't hold that much water.



Jan 20, 2017 at 01:55 PM
naturephoto1
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p.11 #3 · Leica 'M10"


sebboh wrote:
agreed, but:
Sony A7rII - 625g
FE 55/1.8 - 281g, total 906g
FE 28/2 - 200g, total 825g
35 summilux - 320g + adapter - 54g, total 999g
50 summilux - 335g, + adapter 54g total 1014g

this is lighter, smaller in most dimensions, and cheaper. to use m-glass you need on the a7rII you need an extra $500 for the sensor mod and the total will weigh a whole 19g more or 60g less if you go with the a7II.

i understand wanting to use an m camera more, but the smaller lighter argument doesn't hold that much whater.


And for those of us like Derek, Charlie, Retrofocus, and myself, we are still using the smaller and lighter A7 or A7r cameras which are even lighter than the A7II or the A7rII whether the A7 or A7r cameras have a Kolari modification ($400 for the first generation A7 series cameras) or are stock and we are using these cameras with M-mount Leica, Minolta, and Zeiss lenses.

Rich



Jan 20, 2017 at 02:00 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.11 #4 · Leica 'M10"


And then there are those like me that prefer a true rangefinder. I am not a fan of Fuji or Sony. Nice to have choices and in my opinion the real difference and the real alternative choice is Leica M.


Jan 20, 2017 at 02:28 PM
sebboh
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p.11 #5 · Leica 'M10"


airfrogusmc wrote:
And then there are those like me that prefer a true rangefinder. I am not a fan of Fuji or Sony. Nice to have choices and in my opinion the real difference and the real alternative choice is Leica M.


yes, preferring a rangefinder makes a lot of sense, unlike saying the m is the smallest lightest option or the only small and light option.

i am very happy to see the m10 getting smaller rather than more bloated as the m240 did.




Jan 20, 2017 at 02:39 PM
rscheffler
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p.11 #6 · Leica 'M10"


I'm sure Leica already factored in release of a 'lightweight' variant with either aluminum or carbon fiber top plate and perhaps other components, to shave off a few more grams (and $$$$ from bank accounts).


Jan 20, 2017 at 03:14 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #7 · Leica 'M10"


M10 is smaller, lighter and tougher than any A7 in the real world, beyond dispute: if you want it that way. That's just because it shoots the great tiny lenses, like 28 elmarit, 35 cron asph, v4 50cron, great. There is alot less sticking out to wreck. The only reason my A7 is still going is the M9 has done all the heavy lifting on the trail. No way in hell the A7 could take it. I never had a Nex-5 last a year.

BTW the Kolari cannot shoot those wider two near as well as M, because it still has an extra .7mm of glass between the sensor and the rear element.

To pretend a DSLR is comparably portable is laughable.

I can ski bumps at speed with a M9 and not worry, except about my own ribs if I crash. M240 was not any bigger, just heavier, tougher (no fragile RF cali), but still M10 is a bit heavier than M9, though smaller which is great. I thought M240 was bigger than M9 also for years. It was only the little wheel thingy. Size is otherwise identical, and battery much better.

For the M primes. 28-90 the RF is way nicer than EVF, in my experience. No comparison to some stupid tiny TV---Once you are used to it. That took me 2 months or so for the framing. Focus speed is far faster and more accurate than Sony EVF in actual use, including wth superspeed lenses wide open. I did not expect this, but I've shot the bodies side by side many times. The M9 always wins at an event. There are a bunch of reasons which make my eye wince just to think about, let alone enumerate. EVF MF is literally a headache.

But, for a really small, really tough M back I would live with the TV, and carry ibuprofen.



Jan 20, 2017 at 03:19 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.11 #8 · Leica 'M10"


sebboh wrote:
yes, preferring a rangefinder makes a lot of sense, unlike saying the m is the smallest lightest option or the only small and light option.

i am very happy to see the m10 getting smaller rather than more bloated as the m240 did.



I have an old MM M-E and M 262 and I like the size of those. I was surprised at that weight of the 240 when I first picked one up but still not bad to me.



Jan 20, 2017 at 03:40 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #9 · Leica 'M10"


A7 will not even go in the same bag as M:


Raven 2 Bodies by unoh7, not even small lenses.

OK you can cram one in and deform it:

Raven with A7 and Kiron 28/2 + Canon 20/2.8 nFD by unoh7, on Flickr

But thats the plain A7. XT-2 is bigger than both, but it is lighter.

DSC07805 by unoh7, on Flickr

and don't leave the flash open like this, ever:

100/3.5 by unoh7, on Flickr

Edited on Jan 20, 2017 at 03:57 PM · View previous versions



Jan 20, 2017 at 03:46 PM
sebboh
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p.11 #10 · Leica 'M10"


uhoh7 wrote:
I can ski bumps at speed with a M9 and not worry, except about my own ribs if I crash. M240 was not any bigger, just heavier, tougher (no fragile RF cali), but still M10 is a bit heavier than M9, though smaller which is great. I thought M240 was bigger than M9 also for years. It was only the little wheel thingy. Size is otherwise identical, and battery much better.


m240 feels bigger in the hand and less comfortable to grip than an m9 to me and camera size dot com indicates that the frame is bigger on the m240, though the m9 has wheels and buttons that stick out just as far...

i really want an rx1rii sized body with the pop up evf and interchangeable lens mount. the leica Q body would be pretty sweet though.



Jan 20, 2017 at 03:54 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #11 · Leica 'M10"


sebboh wrote:
m240 feels bigger in the hand and less comfortable to grip than an m9 to me and camera size dot com indicates that the frame is bigger on the m240, though the m9 has wheels and buttons that stick out just as far...

i really want an rx1rii sized body with the pop up evf and interchangeable lens mount. the leica Q body would be pretty sweet though.


The measurements are BS. They include the wheel. I've been all through it, taking your side. I was wrong. Body size is identical. It's quite a bit heavier, that's what you feel. M262 is about like M9. Both are 600g with battery M10 660, M240 680.

My own M9 with battery reads 585 grams and plain A7 with M adapter is 543 grams.



Jan 20, 2017 at 03:58 PM
naturephoto1
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p.11 #12 · Leica 'M10"


uhoh7 wrote:
M10 is smaller, lighter and tougher than any A7 in the real world, beyond dispute: if you want it that way. That's just because it shoots the great tiny lenses, like 28 elmarit, 35 cron asph, v4 50cron, great. There is alot less sticking out to wreck. The only reason my A7 is still going is the M9 has done all the heavy lifting on the trail. No way in hell the A7 could take it. I never had a Nex-5 last a year.

BTW the Kolari cannot shoot those wider two near as well as M, because it still
...Show more

Hi Charlie,

How does your M9 do with your 300mm, 400mm, or 500mm Canon or Nikon lens do? Oh right, it doesn't. The M240 or the M10 yes. The same is true with your Macro lens such as the R 100mm f2.8 Apo-Macro-Elmarit lens. M9 no, M240 or the M10 yes. How about working with Grad ND filters with your M9. I have done it with my Mamiya 7II with good success, but it is not such an easy thing to do. If you need to shoot a scene longer than 1 minute for your M9 or the M240 forget it. For the M10 up to 2 minutes at certain ISOs. There are Pros and Cons to working with a RF or an EVF or OVF. I have worked with all 3, though for me, I wanted the RF with my Mamiya 7II rather than the Leicas for the sharper images than a Leica M film based camera while at the same time as sharp or sharper as the larger Pentax 6X7 cameras.

Also, if you wish to use your M9 as a Mini View Camera on a Cambo Actus. Forget it. An M240 or an M10 yes. But, the Sony A7 series camera, will be the best for this application because they have the built in EVF and do not require the add on EVF though the year LCD of either Leica or the A7 series cameras are also possible.

Rich




Jan 20, 2017 at 04:26 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.11 #13 · Leica 'M10"


Rich you are describing almost every other DSLR and mirrorless camera already made. If I need a view camera for a project I would use one. I NEVER shoot with long lenses. I had a 200 2L that i used but it was pretty much outside my range of what I shoot both professionally and personally. I don't want my rangefinders to act like anything but rangefinders. If I want or need a camera to act like something else I will use the one that does that the best. I choose Leica M because it is Leica M and it is a true rangefinder and I really like it like that.


Jan 20, 2017 at 04:42 PM
naturephoto1
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p.11 #14 · Leica 'M10"


airfrogusmc wrote:
Rich you are describing almost every other DSLR and mirrorless camera already made. If I need a view camera for a proust I would use one. I NEVER shoot with long lenses. I had a 200 2L that i used but it was pretty much outside my range of what I shoot both professionally and personally. I don't want my rangefinders to act like anything but rangefinders. If I want or need a camera to act like something else I will use the one that does that the best. I choose Leica M because it is Leica M and it
...Show more

But, some of us shot and still shoot professionally (Nature, Landscape, and Wildlife). I used my Leica R cameras and lenses from 1984-2008 (still use my R lenses and also M Leica, Minolta, and Zeiss lenses) rather than the M cameras because I needed a full range of cameras, lenses, shutter speeds etc. and could not afford both the R and M system or carry both. I also shot 4" X 5" film (Ready Load and Quick load preloaded) for landscape with better resolution and color and my MF Mamiya 7II and Rolleiflex 3.5F 12/24 TLR when I wanted larger film and smaller size. My point is there are different cameras for different purposes. For me at this point, I like the M cameras but they are too limiting due to too many features along with their price, but the Sonys offer me what I need with the least number of cameras and parts to work for so many possibilities including as a Mini View Camera and for stitching. I can carry only so much into the field since I am now in my early to mid 60's, had a Quadruple Heart Bypass at 59, and broke both wrists in Bicycle Car accident over 20 years ago.

Rich



Edited on Jan 20, 2017 at 05:11 PM · View previous versions



Jan 20, 2017 at 04:53 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.11 #15 · Leica 'M10"


Rich but there are plenty of other choices out there that fit the bill. What separates Leica M from the herd is it is a true rangefinder. So many of the others are trying to be the one size fits all and I say it's really nice to have a real choice because to me Leica is M and it's not what those others are and that is a big reason why I went with Leica M.


Jan 20, 2017 at 05:10 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #16 · Leica 'M10"


My M10 just showed up


DSC09530 by unoh7, on Flickr


DSC09538 by unoh7, on Flickr

This is really not so OT, since the M6 is what they are really trying to re-create. Most valuable film camera still in wide use. Dimensions are near identical to M10, but the latter is slightly taller or something.

No here's whats funny, and what I just figured out. I was testing the grips, how they felt in the hand.


DSC09541 by unoh7, on Flickr

For me without question the M6 wins. I knew that years ago. The Sony is "almost". But the grip ergos are just not right for large WASP men Plus the little M catch will pinch your forefinger. The M6 is only 15 grams lighter than the M9, and actually feels heavier. So why on earth is it so much nicer to hold? I always thought it was the size. Just that little bit smaller and bingo! Perfect. Wrong.


DSC09548 by unoh7, on Flickr


DSC09546 by unoh7, on Flickr

Can you see it?

You can't hold the M9 right, as the screen and controls are right where your thumb wants to go. Alot of you already knew this, of course. It doesn't always need to go there, but the camera is super secure when it does. And you can see the M9 could have been designed to allow the camera to be held near the same. Move the screen to the left, and bring those four buttons either closer, or put them along the bottom. Then move the wheel down and left and put the menu button someplace else. Boom! Perfect.

Jeez Leica get a grip



Jan 20, 2017 at 05:18 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #17 · Leica 'M10"


naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Charlie,
How does your M9 do with your 300mm, 400mm, or 500mm Canon or Nikon lens do?


Rich, as the greatest camera ever in history, the M9 of course can shoot right up to 800mm and has a plethora of macro options. It will go right on a tilt-shift bellows and focus perfectly with Chimney or right-angle finders on the visoflex iii.

https://www.cameraquest.com/jpg4/leica_viso_grp.jpg

No living camera system has more bizarre accessories which can still be bought and used today. And alot of that stuff is dirt cheap if one wants to go there. I almost bought a viso iii, and alot of the old long lenses for it are excellent.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/setup.jpg

But my poor Sony must have something to do, you know?

It's my special needs pet, and I like to make it feel important

Zoomar by unoh7, on Flickr

Life is tough when your sister is a legend

Joking aside, Rich, if a person is shooting alot and needs to "be there", a single body is crazy. Cameras break all the time. Some people just have two 5ds...alot of small time pros do. I go the complimentary route, and M9/A7.mod has been fantastic. One of them is going to work for sure, and each has it's strengths.

But if I did have to keep only one, I'd sacrifice those long Nikons I love. You are right the 240 and M10 will shoot them, but I'd need a very custom adapter for the M9 to use them

I love to hear about the fun you are having with that view camera thing, seriously.

Edited on Jan 20, 2017 at 06:57 PM · View previous versions



Jan 20, 2017 at 06:12 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.11 #18 · Leica 'M10"


Do you use a Thumbs Up Charlie? May fit the bill for you...


Jan 20, 2017 at 06:57 PM
uhoh7
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p.11 #19 · Leica 'M10"


Gary Clennan wrote:
Do you use a Thumbs Up Charlie? May fit the bill for you...


I have two (one holds a VF), but my half case needs to be cut, and I have not found a good leather cutter yet.

The camera holds pretty well with 1/2 Luigi:

Untitled by unoh7, on Flickr

But it's incredible with a base grip and thumbs up.

I've seriously considered a M240 as second back also. Once I finally realized it's the same size, and the RF is better and more stable, I have watched them.

But my current setup is really lacking in one area: high ISO. So I was going to do a A7S.mod. Then I was using that RX1r2 and saw how the ISO is so usable at 6400. A7, forget it. 240 and A7 it's 1600 max, and they are getting iffy for me at that point.

If I was richer I'd get a M10 and have A7r2.mod2 as second. As it is, I can swing the latter in the spring I think, if I send out some bills and sell some stuff I have not used in quite a while.


Edited on Jan 20, 2017 at 07:20 PM · View previous versions



Jan 20, 2017 at 07:16 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.11 #20 · Leica 'M10"


And don't tell me any more about your M6. I have resisted buying one for the past five years....


Jan 20, 2017 at 07:18 PM
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