The original Leica, in early 21st Century equivalence, would probably be a 1" sensor mirrorless camera, if not a smartphone.
Maybe I should rephrase what I meant: I think the manner in which the M feels substantial compared to many other cameras on the market, works in its favor. It feels 'real' and gives the impression of quality. This combines with its other positive tactile qualities to enhance the 'user experience' for some. Just like how the sound of the door closing on my current German car sounds better than on my previous Nissan. Does it mean much in respect to figuratively getting from point A to B in either case? No, not materially, but yes, subjectively.
Would I be upset if Leica trimmed 100g from the next M? No, I'm sure I would like it, so long as it didn't feel 'cheap'.
rscheffler wrote:
The original Leica, in early 21st Century equivalence, would probably be a 1" sensor mirrorless camera, if not a smartphone.
Maybe I should rephrase what I meant: I think the manner in which the M feels substantial compared to many other cameras on the market, works in its favor. It feels 'real' and gives the impression of quality. This combines with its other positive tactile qualities to enhance the 'user experience' for some. Just like how the sound of the door closing on my current German car sounds better than on my previous Nissan. Does it mean much in respect to figuratively getting from point A to B in either case? No, not materially, but yes, subjectively.
Would I be upset if Leica trimmed 100g from the next M? No, I'm sure I would like it, so long as it didn't feel 'cheap'. ...Show more →
Think about it Ron, that Leica II, basically grabbed image quality close to any SLR in the whole history of 35mm photography at 50mm F/8. People loved the CL so hard it killed the M5.
I think this M10 sounds extremely sweet just as it is. But as we have the M262 variant on M240, I hope one day, somebody in Solms will prove they understand the original purpose of the Leica.: A guy with asthma wanted a light, great camera to take on a hike. https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2898/13896201364_d22857d2ca_b.jpg
Photo by azshot
That is so embarrassing....
There were small crappy cameras even then....I think......I better look that up OK not so many.
Anyway, I don't think Barnack would have been happy with a cell phone. RX1rii, maybe
Leica has really never been one to take on a lot of the bells and whistles many other companies have. How long did it take them to put a meter in an M? And I am so glad that they never went auto focus with the M.
I'm still of the mind that Leica should have made the Q interchangeable, and it should have come out with 3 lenses that were the size of the current lens. All with that macro ring installed the exactly same focusing AF/MF style that is currently on the Q lens.
I would have liked to have seen a 28/1.7, 50/1.7, 90/2.8 to start. And later maybe a 18/4, 35/1.7, 75/1.7 or whatever F/stop to keep the lenses all of a similar size.
Sure I'm almost describing the T, but not really.. Although the 35TL lens is good, it's overpriced for a APSC lens, and it has no aperture ring, and no good MF feel. Much like the SL lenses That and I much prefer the body style/size, ergonomics of the Q camera and M cameras to the SL and T and S. I've also recently included my 35TL into my great 50 comparison. BUT the DOF from being a crop sensor really just puts it at a disadvantage over even my f/2 50s.
After using the SL for over a year with all available lenses, it's just to big for me. Yet I've bought and sold the Q 3 times now.. I sell it because I'm not a huge 28mm fan, but I buy it back because it's smart, easy to use and light weight/small. The RX1RII doesn't appeal to me. I borrowed a friends for a few days, and although I really don't mind the IQ, I just don't like the ergonomics.
I guess now all I can hope for is a 50 or 75 Q to come out. But I doubt it'll happen. Any emails I've sent about it, come back with a negative response. Or come back telling me I should consider an SL ().
And as for the M10.. I'm still waiting to see more images before I decide if it's worth it for me.. Though I'm actually missing my M246 more than I thought I would. So maybe I'll hold out for a M10M and pickup another 35FLE and be done with it (quite like the 35FLE on a monochrom sensor, rids the lens of the horrible yellow/green cast when shooting in black and white). But again perhaps I'll like what I see from the M10 in the next few months, and I'll pick one up in HK when the prices drop.
airfrogusmc wrote:
Yellow green from the 35 Lux FLE? I haven't seen to on my M-E or my 262. Do love it on my MM though.
In comparison to how some of my other preferred lenses render colours. I also find I have this problem crop up more in Singapore than when I'm in Los Angeles. Quality of light I guess also plays a factor. Something nobody thinks about until they visit here
adamdewilde wrote:
I'm still of the mind that Leica should have made the Q interchangeable, and it should have come out with 3 lenses that were the size of the current lens. All with that macro ring installed the exactly same focusing AF/MF style that is currently on the Q lens.
I would have liked to have seen a 28/1.7, 50/1.7, 90/2.8 to start. And later maybe a 18/4, 35/1.7, 75/1.7 or whatever F/stop to keep the lenses all of a similar size.
The 28/1.7 Q and a twin fixed 50/1.7 Q would have done it for me. Out the M's. Done.
A fixed 90/2.8 Q, if I had 28 and 50 twins, that would be pure hubris to expect.
airfrogusmc wrote:
Yellow green from the 35 Lux FLE? I haven't seen to on my M-E or my 262. Do love it on my MM though.
adamdewilde wrote:
In comparison to how some of my other preferred lenses render colours. I also find I have this problem crop up more in Singapore than when I'm in Los Angeles. Quality of light I guess also plays a factor. Something nobody thinks about until they visit here
I think there is subtle color inconsistency across the M lens line. From my experience images from the 28 Cron v1 and 90 Summarit have slight magenta bias. The 21 and 50 Luxes seem neutral. The 90AA slightly cyan/green. 28 Lux seems pretty neutral, as does 21 SEM. Of these, the 28 Cron and 90AA create enough additional tweaking in post to be noticeable and slightly annoying when working on images of same/similar subject matter & light quality across multiple focal lengths. YMMV. I wonder if any of this is due to the baked in tweaks invoked by each lens's profile vs. actual qualities of the lenses. IOW, will any of this change with the M10?
rscheffler wrote:
I think there is subtle color inconsistency across the M lens line. From my experience images from the 28 Cron v1 and 90 Summarit have slight magenta bias. The 21 and 50 Luxes seem neutral. The 90AA slightly cyan/green. 28 Lux seems pretty neutral, as does 21 SEM. Of these, the 28 Cron and 90AA create enough additional tweaking in post to be noticeable and slightly annoying when working on images of same/similar subject matter & light quality across multiple focal lengths. YMMV. I wonder if any of this is due to the baked in tweaks invoked by each lens's profile vs. actual qualities of the lenses. IOW, will any of this change with the M10?...Show more →
Good question.. When I had two 50APOs I noticed that both were ever so slightly different in color rendering/saturation. I tested this on 4 cameras (like both lenses on 4 cameras, as to rule out sensor inconsistencies). And I still maintain that my very first 50APO was the best.. Before the flare fix. Still wish I never sent it in. It was the most contrasty full of vibrancy and pop lens I've ever used. It also had a very distinct blue/magenta cast. Which was perfect of the M240 sensor.
Now it seems the M-D sensor is REALLY magenta. And since it's auto WB (you can't change this) the camera is always dialling in -25 on the tint (towards green). So I'm always forced to mess around with WB more than usual. So this perhaps is why airfrogusmc doesn't notice the green/yellow tint. Since he has a 262 which has the same colour tweaked M240 sensor as the M-D if I'm not wrong.
Adding to this, I also noticed colour inconsistencies (or should I say colour bias patterns) with certain lenses. Out of all the 20+ M lenses I had at one point, it drove me crazy that the ones I wanted to use together never paired well colour wise.
I took out the M-D recently to do the 50mm test... And after pixel peeping I still maintain that I find the M240 sensor to be the best out of all the current Sony A series cameras and the SL. So if they managed to keep what I like about the M sensor and just give it better higher iso and a pleasing (to me) colour profile. I actually might be tempted to pick one up.
rscheffler wrote:
Just like how the sound of the door closing on my current German car sounds better than on my previous Nissan. Does it mean much in respect to figuratively getting from point A to B in either case? No, not materially, but yes, subjectively.
I am routinely seduced by the tactile feel of quality. Yet in my experience, and as it is expressed by German, Swiss, and high-end Japanese manufacturers (e.g., cars, cameras, fountain pens, watches), that feeling has more often than not led me astray.
My experience with German luxury cars and their high/frequent repair costs (Mercedes) drove me into the arms of Japanese luxury brands, but even these are not as reliable as the old Honda Civic I drove 150,000 miles on. My mechanical Swiss watch is masterfully constructed and a joy to behold, but my old Seiko Quartz keeps better time and doesn't run down if I don't wear it for a few days. My Montblanc fountain pens look cool and have great feel and heft, but are far more likely to leak in my pocket/hands of clog up/skip than my reliable and largely leak-tight Pilot fountain pens (and ball points are of course even more reliable still). My Japanese cameras (Nikons) are faster, more feature rich, and overall much more dependable than my Leica gear, but the Leica gear sure does feel nice!
And so, I stubbornly use my Leica in preference to my Nikons for most casual shooting. I still prefer to wear a mechanical wristwatch over a perfectly respectable quartz watch. And I still prefer to use fountain pens over ball points. It doesn't make any sense - what the heck is wrong with me?
Arka wrote:
I am routinely seduced by the tactile feel of quality. Yet in my experience, and as it is expressed by German, Swiss, and high-end Japanese manufacturers (e.g., cars, cameras, fountain pens, watches), that feeling has more often than not led me astray.
My experience with German luxury cars and their high/frequent repair costs (Mercedes) drove me into the arms of Japanese luxury brands, but even these are not as reliable as the old Honda Civic I drove 150,000 miles on. My mechanical Swiss watch is masterfully constructed and a joy to behold, but my old Seiko Quartz keeps better time and doesn't run down if I don't wear it for a few days. My Montblanc fountain pens look cool and have great feel and heft, but are far more likely to leak in my pocket/hands of clog up/skip than my reliable and largely leak-tight Pilot fountain pens (and ball points are of course even more reliable still). My Japanese cameras (Nikons) are faster, more feature rich, and overall much more dependable than my Leica gear, but the Leica gear sure does feel nice!
And so, I stubbornly use my Leica in preference to my Nikons for most casual shooting. I still prefer to wear a mechanical wristwatch over a perfectly respectable quartz watch. And I still prefer to use fountain pens over ball points. It doesn't make any sense - what the heck is wrong with me? ...Show more →
rscheffler wrote:
And so, I stubbornly use my Leica in preference to my Nikons for most casual shooting. I still prefer to wear a mechanical wristwatch over a perfectly respectable quartz watch. And I still prefer to use fountain pens over ball points. It doesn't make any sense - what the heck is wrong with me?
Thank God for you, because you are one of the core markets for Leica.
As to the Civic vs Lexus, the Civic, especially decades ago, was a simpler car with less to go wrong. I think that is the missing aesthetic we like in Leicas. Apple makes the interfaces simpler, but still allows complexity.
Sandy from ChromaSoft has created an app called "DNG Cleaner" ($9.99 US) which for the M10 will remove:
- The full size image preview - that will save about 3MB
- The various Lightroom/Photoshop adjustments embedded in the XMP portion of the DNG - ISO dependent noise reduction settings, lens profiles, etc.
It will also offer a lossless compression option for cameras that don't offer lossless DNG compression, such as the SL and Q.... and I guess all those old M9 files shot uncompressed instead of lossy compressed. There some more features, so head over to his blog post for details.
I thought I was sure about this, but now I'm in doubt: does the M10 'bake-in' lens profile corrections like the M240, M9, etc.? Or does it now use opcodes like with the SL and Q?
I'm in favour of the embedded full-rez Jpeg preview as it saves considerable time when culling a shoot not having to generate them on the fly. The other stuff sounds great to have available as an option. Great to have options.
Arka wrote:
I stubbornly use my Leica in preference to my Nikons for most casual shooting. I still prefer to wear a mechanical wristwatch over a perfectly respectable quartz watch. And I still prefer to use fountain pens over ball points. It doesn't make any sense - what the heck is wrong with me?
It may not be logical, but since when is that important?
Leica, Apple... enter reality distortion field and everything is gonna be just fine.
My feeling is if you know this going in, it's your own fault if you're caught off by it. Sure, I got from point A to B just fine (most of the time) with my compact Nissan. But I like the drive much better in my current car, to the point where sometimes I most look forward to the drive home after a job or an event (and not just because I'm going home). That said, I've had my share of service visits for it, as with my Leica gear. Like changing the Audi's timing belt regularly, if not a bit earlier than recommended, I've come to understand Leica M lenses will need periodic tuneups, unlike apparently my Canon lenses, which just work or break (very rarely). The biggest drawback to this, IMO, isn't necessarily the need for the servicing, rather, the massive PITA to get it done in a reasonable timeframe. And by reasonable I mean in a few days (yes, dreaming...).
rscheffler wrote:
I think there is subtle color inconsistency across the M lens line. From my experience images from the 28 Cron v1 and 90 Summarit have slight magenta bias. The 21 and 50 Luxes seem neutral. The 90AA slightly cyan/green. 28 Lux seems pretty neutral, as does 21 SEM. Of these, the 28 Cron and 90AA create enough additional tweaking in post to be noticeable and slightly annoying when working on images of same/similar subject matter & light quality across multiple focal lengths. YMMV. I wonder if any of this is due to the baked in tweaks invoked by each lens's profile vs. actual qualities of the lenses. IOW, will any of this change with the M10?...Show more →
I just processed some files from my M-E and my 35 FLE and now all I can see is the yellow green tendencies. Just had to point it out didn't ya. ha ha. Funny how I never really noticed it before.
Desmolicious wrote:
You sound like the perfect candidate for film photography.
Been there.. Done with that.
The C645 was one of my favourite film cameras for a long while. Loved the Contax G2 as well and even had a few film M cameras.
I just got sick of the cost/time and lack of favourable results from colour labs. It just stopped being fun for me. The M-D however, gives me that same feeling.. The good film feelings.
airfrogusmc wrote:
I just processed some files from my M-E and my 35 FLE and now all I can see is the yellow green tendencies. Just had to point it out didn't ya. ha ha. Funny how I never really noticed it before.
That and I much prefer the body style/size, ergonomics of the Q camera and M cameras to the SL and T and S. I've also recently included my 35TL into my great 50 comparison. BUT the DOF from being a crop sensor really just puts it at a disadvantage over even my f/2 50s.