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Archive 2017 · Leica 'M10"

  
 
Bacalhau
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p.17 #1 · Leica 'M10"


uhoh7 wrote:
Techie Stuff:
Color Matrix 240 vs SL vs M10

Good lord, Ron. The M8, a great camera with IR issues but incredible clarity, was a crop sensor, better than APS-C, but well under full frame. The M9 was the biggest jump up fundamentally from the starting Model. Images look great to this day, actually preferred by no small number of Leica shooters.

Of course that last is highly debatable, there is less debate the M9 does better justice to the 28 cron and 50 Lux asph, to this day. Still arguable I grant you.

I take your points on the 240 as adding many
...Show more

that's fine with me allowed me getting the M8 cheaper - the 1/8000 and easily made into a IR (ok not a perfect one) machine overcomed the crop factor to me.
I thought about selling my M8, but having the M240 changed my mind about it.
don't see myself upgrading to the M10 anytime soon, unless the M240 dies or gets stolen
I only use the EVF for one or two lenses, and have no need for high iso shooting with the M's - wish actually they would allow iso 50, instead often fumbling with ND filters...but that's just me



Jan 24, 2017 at 11:14 AM
uhoh7
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p.17 #2 · Leica 'M10"


Bacalhau wrote:
that's fine with me allowed me getting the M8 cheaper - the 1/8000 and easily made into a IR (ok not a perfect one) machine overcomed the crop factor to me.
I thought about selling my M8, but having the M240 changed my mind about it.
don't see myself upgrading to the M10 anytime soon, unless the M240 dies or gets stolen
I only use the EVF for one or two lenses, and have no need for high iso shooting with the M's - wish actually they would allow iso 50, instead often fumbling with ND filters...but that's just me


I will say it was M8 images which established the Digital M as distinctive not only in it's continured use of the 1920's rangefinder technology (updated 1957), but the photos in general, really stood out. BW especially. My Jaw dropped. To this day it's a great camera.

We may forget the incredible furor on the forums about the M8. It cost alot, and the color issues seemed outrageous to alot of people who were already mad the could not afford one, and the guys who had to buy all those IR cut filters.

But that was also a reason why it was so distinctive: CCD with only .5mm S8612 glass on top. Lenses like the 28 v3 looked incredible on the camera, and the old wides were pretty good.

But the M9 release was a revelation. WAY bigger deal in the day than M10 is right now. I could not get close to one, but I read threads full of defenders and ultra-harsh Leica bashers and digital bashers. I remember once I chimed in and said: "I could not use a M9 because it's just too fragile for where I want to take it" Brian Sweeny quoted that with links to the camera in use in Iraq and Afghanistan, extensively. That opened my eyes.

It took Sony's betrayal of the legacy users who made Nex cameras famous to push me to the M9. By then, new years 2014, the M240 had become easy to get and was really taking over. A perfect M9 could be found for 3500. Best move I ever made.

Funny you mention ISO, as that's something I also have been willing to forgo when considering the M240, which is alot better than M9 at 1600. But not at 160.

Bottom line is each of these cameras has been quite the personality, with lots of little surprises. Jaapv, who I just saw advising to keep M240, to my shock, said it took him 3 months to figure out how to edit the CMOS files and get the M9 look.

The M10 is no less a personality, no video in 2017, heavier than M9 and 262, still with some IR issues-according to Puts, holding at 24mp, etc, but so gorgeous (for now---not after 150k frames ), so cool in M6ishness, great finder, actually able to shoot at ISO6400---that would be very nice for me, and the files look pretty kodachrome OOC, and seem really clear up to 800. Lens profiles may be best yet. Let's see how the 28cron and 50 Lux work after the M240 debacle. That was great for prices though, both are near 2K, cron even less.

I would own M10 in a minute. but my old M9 is right there at base ISO, lighter, brassy, and FREE.

No need for a trophy wife, my girl is just fine. She doesn't care if I watch and drool, she knows where I pull the trigger----good thing M9 can't read this sexist talk, she might corrode---or let me know she's actually a boy which means....

PS this just in:
M10 DNG NR on import to LR varies according to ISO and is increased as follows:
100 : 5
200 : 5
400 : 10
800 : 10
1600 : 20

Lens profiles are checked by default. Current LR version does recognize camera.



Jan 24, 2017 at 12:54 PM
uhoh7
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p.17 #3 · Leica 'M10"


wolfloid wrote:
"As for the OVF, why can't Leica implement a two-magnification RF so that I can shoot a 24/21mm lens without an external finder? Fuji manages to do it with a live view overlay *and* a pop-up display of the focus area."

Yes, this is one of the many Leica mysteries. Why no rangefinder with a two-stage magnification? Can it really be that hard? Leica is most useful with its wides, since they can be better than other brands and considerably smaller, so why not solve the considerable ergonomic deficit when using 24mm and wider?


Let's take a look:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QomDizboK-A/SF0i7dsqUPI/AAAAAAAAAZI/povCwpqM52M/s1600/31.jpg
Imagine the cost of a Fuji with that inside, I'm not sure they would be so popular. Very sweet to shoot, though.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QomDizboK-A/SF0i7d7yiLI/AAAAAAAAAZA/KNshV8Kq3YE/s1600/30.jpg
José Manuel Serrano Esparza:
All the viewfinders of full frame 24 x 36 mm Leica M rangefinders, both analog and digital ones, are based on these ideas set forth by Willi Stein and Ludwig Leitz (susbsequently improved by Heinrich Schneider and Willi Keiner and which experienced a further evolution until reaching extraordinary levels with the RF viewfinders created by Robert Eckhardt and Erich Mandler, sporting updated brightline frames in the viewfinder for lenses of different focal lengths), whose system - highly consolidated by the optical elements of the RF viewfinder calculated by Willi Keiner for the Leica M2 between 1956 and 1957 from which the rangefinders boasted by the Leica M9 and the M9 Titanium stem- has proved its great efficiency and quality for almost six decades of persevering research implemented by Leica about the effect of the viewfinder magnification on the base of effective measuring of the rangefinder and the calibration of such RF viewfinder and its brightline frames for lenses of different focal lengths, with which the base of effective measuring of a 24 x 36 mm full frame Leica M camera will be always the same.

That´s why the accuracy of a Leica M camera -whether analog or digital- with wideangle, standard and medium focal length prime lenses up to roughly 90 mm, is far superior to the one delivered by the most high end analog or digital SLR cameras with lenses featuring identical focal lengths, and it is mainly noticeable in real picture taking contexts, specially when you use the Leica M objectives at full aperture.


From Here

Yes, to flick a switch and see 18mm frame lines, then another click and you see like you had the 135/2.8 googles on there.....I'm all ears, how do you do it, and keep the viewing clarity we have now?


BTW Jonoslack on the weight of the M10:
Oh! I know they were really anguishing about this, but it simply wasn't possible, there's so much in there!
I like Jono and he is a fine shooter, but anyone care to guess what this digital M weighs?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e7/0b/00/e70b00b3e4453e74200c5f3c7a54afe0.jpg

335 grams.

Yes, that is how much lighter M10 could be, Jono

That would be awful, such a light M, right? Nobody would want one.

OK titanium is expensive. There are other ways, I'd think which would also stay strong.

Let's say you can only have one and never sell it or own a different M. You want Titanium M9 or Chrome M10?



Jan 24, 2017 at 03:15 PM
Alpha_Geist
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p.17 #4 · Leica 'M10"


Charlie, you mentioned lens profiles earlier which has me wondering. When a M supports the 6bit lens code and lens detection is set in camera to "on", what is the benefit to enabling lens profiles in Lightroom? Does the DNG file not already incorporate the lens profile when enabled in camera? Does enabling lens profile in LR amount to anything? Does it apply a lens profile on top of an existing (in camera) lens profile which negates the "original" embedded(?) profile?

I'm curious as we've read that the M10 will have even better lens profiles.

Also, what lens is Seal using on his Ti M?



Jan 24, 2017 at 03:44 PM
joakim
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p.17 #5 · Leica 'M10"


I think that the Leica lens coding is used for correcting for vignetting and the Italian flag effect while the LR profiles correct vignetting and distortion and maybe something more?

21 Summilux is my guess.



Jan 24, 2017 at 04:30 PM
uhoh7
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p.17 #6 · Leica 'M10"


Alpha_Geist wrote:
Charlie, you mentioned lens profiles earlier which has me wondering. When a M supports the 6bit lens code and lens detection is set in camera to "on", what is the benefit to enabling lens profiles in Lightroom? Does the DNG file not already incorporate the lens profile when enabled in camera? Does enabling lens profile in LR amount to anything? Does it apply a lens profile on top of an existing (in camera) lens profile which negates the "original" embedded(?) profile?

I'm curious as we've read that the M10 will have even better lens profiles.

Also, what lens is Seal using on
...Show more

haha I'm such a idiot I didn't even know it was Seal!!! I think that is a 21 LUX

You can see him actually writing about m9 titan at Steve Huff, he is ~6

Here..wouldn't have found it without you

So, with my M9 and coded 28 cron. It sees the lens with lens detection on for sure. But in LR you must turn on profile: then he sees again which lens and for sure there are changes made.

I'd guess they happen at both ends: I've assumed that was the case.

However it's a great question. I shoot the CV 21/4 with elmarit 21 profile (manual). I see no red edge. But I don't even turn on the profile in LR. That could be pretty stupid, and also applies to all my ZM18 shots!

I better investigate......

Who has thoughts?



Jan 24, 2017 at 06:15 PM
pandorf
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p.17 #7 · Leica 'M10"


uhoh7 wrote:
....
I better investigate......

Who has thoughts?


I would enable the Lens Profile Corrections and turn on Remove Chromatic Aberrations in the same panel.



Jan 24, 2017 at 06:41 PM
uhoh7
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p.17 #8 · Leica 'M10"


pandorf wrote:
I would enable the Lens Profile Corrections and turn on Remove Chromatic Aberrations in the same panel.


Actually it's impossible with the important profiles, like the 21 Elmarit pre-asph. LR does "see" then lens, but not profile is offered.

I'd say some changes are cooked in, in that case. You can select a modern 21 or 18 and it will effect the distortion and vignette. I don't think they do any colorshift stuff on M9 anyway. But somebody may know better.



Jan 24, 2017 at 07:50 PM
CVickery
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p.17 #9 · Leica 'M10"


AFAIK the coding is primarily for colorshift and the Lightroom profiles correct distortion and vignetting. You should be able to see this with your M9 and the CV21 Charlie...leave the lens unselected or use something you know is well corrected such as a 90 elmarit and you'll see how much colorshift the lens has.




Jan 24, 2017 at 08:17 PM
Jack Thompson
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p.17 #10 · Leica 'M10"


Very cool info on rangefinder mechanism and sweet recap of the digital M ups and downs.

Rangefinders are cool, they really are, Like Mr. Peterson's Ferrari. So choice indeed. "Apparently, you don't understand. He never drives it...he just rubs it with a diaper "

"That´s why the accuracy of a Leica M camera -whether analog or digital- with wideangle, standard and medium focal length prime lenses up to roughly 90 mm, is far superior to the one delivered by the most high end analog or digital SLR cameras with lenses featuring identical focal lengths, and it is mainly noticeable in real picture taking contexts, specially when you use the Leica M objectives at full aperture.

Man, imagine the ire of all those Leica R users began finding that the accuracy of their wide to 90 lenses wide open was far inferior to the performance they were getting out of their rangefinders in "real picture taking contexts."

I can just imagine some poor person at Leica holding the phone a full arm length away from their ear and streams of cursing coming through the reciever all day in German and Japanese. That Scheiße must have lasted for years. No wonder Leica finally stopped making slrs. I knew there was a reason I went mirrorless! Thanks José Manuel Serrano Esparza!




Jan 24, 2017 at 08:39 PM
uhoh7
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p.17 #11 · Leica 'M10"


Nice post, Jack!

CVickery wrote:
AFAIK the coding is primarily for colorshift and the Lightroom profiles correct distortion and vignetting. You should be able to see this with your M9 and the CV21 Charlie...leave the lens unselected or use something you know is well corrected such as a 90 elmarit and you'll see how much colorshift the lens has.



RGR I will try with ZM18 and CV 21, both which may shift some color.


a7M_CV21_11 by unoh7, example

That's the CV 21 on the A7 mod, and it's pretty obvious, no?

I am not positive it will do it that much on M9 which has 1/2 the glass over the sensor as the mod. Same lens on M9 with 21 pre-asph profile, and I don't think there is a LR profile on any kind selected.


L1000228 by unoh7, CV 21/4 F/8 M9

ZM18 is more subtle on Mod, and really goes away as you stop down. Hard to see color shift on M9 with "wrong" profile of Tri-elmar. Good thing I never sold that CV21

I know many have it, so soon we will see it on M10



Jan 24, 2017 at 09:33 PM
naturephoto1
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p.17 #12 · Leica 'M10"


uhoh7 wrote:
Nice post, Jack!

RGR I will try with ZM18 and CV 21, both which may shift some color.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7348/16485731351_6417b71660_b.jpg
a7M_CV21_11 by unoh7, example

That's the CV 21 on the A7 mod, and it's pretty obvious, no?

I am not positive it will do it that much on M9 which has 1/2 the glass over the sensor as the mod. Same lens on M9 with 21 pre-asph profile, and I don't think there is a LR profile on any kind selected.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3699/11864156313_e77c0f9ba4_b.jpg
L1000228 by unoh7, CV 21/4 F/8 M9

ZM18 is more subtle on Mod, and really goes away as you stop down. Hard to see color
...Show more

Hi Charlie,

The first image with the CV21 and the A7M could be improved using Corner Fix, but you would need some references for the correction.

Rich




Jan 24, 2017 at 10:00 PM
Alpha_Geist
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p.17 #13 · Leica 'M10"


Interesting...I've been using the in camera profiles, but not enabling LR's lens profiles (other than enabling remove chromatic aberrations on the 240/262). Looks like the in camera profiles may solely be for color shift and lens identification only while the LR lens profiles are for distortion. I hope to have the M10 by this Saturday at the latest. I'd like to experiment with disabling the in camera profiles and seeing the differences between different lenses in LR. Sold the 262, so I can't experiment with that camera anymore.


Jan 25, 2017 at 12:48 AM
uhoh7
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p.17 #14 · Leica 'M10"


naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Charlie,

The first image with the CV21 and the A7M could be improved using Corner Fix, but you would need some references for the correction.

Rich


Hi Rich,

I used corner fix a bit, then Adobe Flat Field Correction plugin, which is a bit easier. You make your own lens profiles. It does work, but the whole image WB seems to effected and editing it's like you shot it on some other camera. I did not like it, and I never do it, but somebody with more patience could I'm sure.

I just never use the CV 21 on the A7.mod This was quite a difference in the A7 and A7r, the latter does shift color on many more lenses. I thought that was the smaller pixel size. You don't see it so much the r2, which is impressive, and of course it's a totally new sensor.

What I recently learned about the A7r, is that it is better at high ISO than A7, at least by the numbers, even better than A7r2, which is sort of a shock to me: I never tried the camera at 6400. Kasson measured it though. A7 is not great for ISO. Better than M9, but only by a small amount.

Perhaps my problem with A7r was not watching the noise improvement which comes with reduction. A7r2 looks quite noisy at 100%. But those file get clean at M9 size. Also something new to me.

Looking back at my test shots, very few A7r were at high ISO, but here is 3200:

DSC03324 by unoh7, on Flickr
Actually looks great, better than A7, for sure, but on the full
You see some real noise

You ever try high ISO, Rich?

I think this is basically on topic, because the M10 ISO performance in a BIG deal. But when we compare to r2, we need to have the files the same size, in pixels, to be fair. And maybe the A7r has got short shrift on it's ISO....from me for sure.

I was so beside myself with the smearing and colorshift...I missed that. Looking at other ISO 2000 and 1600 shots, A7r looks very good. All these Sony problems with RF lenses were a godsend though, because it forced the unthinkable: M9. The final straw was at 28mm. I was testing A7 with elmarit v3 28, and thinking, well maybe this is OK:

DSC04045 by unoh7, on Flickr

So I posted at RFF, basically asking: beat this with Leica M. Some nice guy took pity and referenced a M9 with 28 cron full size. Game over, no contest. I realized there was no way I could get a small 28 working on the A7 cameras. No mod at the time. I found a M9 for sale within a few days, and just ate the expense. Family was horrified:

You bought a Leica? by unoh7, A7 + CV 35/1.4
She came around

Review by unoh7, on Flickr

To this day A7x options at 28 are meagre

So my purchase had nothing to do with RF. I was still convinced at the time EVF was better. That did not change for at least a month. The farming was so foreign I missed the obvious clarity and accuracy.

I should thank Sony, but I'm still mad at them for misleading marketing. No one can say I did give those first cameras the benefit of the doubt, though. I defended them tooth and nail until there was just no doubt they had made some weird choices.

M10 introduction is going very smoothly compared to M8, M9, M240, and A7, but's elary days

A very few are appalled by lack of video, and even the obvious fail on weight is not considered a big deal at all. Ming won't even talk about the camera, but I don't see many others with bad feelings. Huff is Crazy about it, which is hilarious, after he was such a "Leica is yesterday, Sony is now" guy. I admired his adoption of SL. His sony fans were appalled. Even DPR is gaga.....and that is totally unbelievable.

They never made a full review of the M9 at all.

Edited on Jan 25, 2017 at 10:34 AM · View previous versions



Jan 25, 2017 at 09:47 AM
naturephoto1
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p.17 #15 · Leica 'M10"


uhoh7 wrote:
Hi Rich,

I used corner fix a bit, then Adobe Flat Field Correction plugin, which is a bit easier. You make your own lens profiles. It does work, but the whole image WB seems to effected and editing it's like you shot it on some other camera. I did not like it, and I never do it, but somebody with more patience could I'm sure.

I just never use the CV 21 on the A7.mod This was quite a difference in the A7 and A7r, the latter does shift color on many more lenses. I thought that was the smaller pixel
...Show more

Hi Charlie,

I normally only use high ISO at night as for Milky Way Photos or Night Photos.

Rich



Jan 25, 2017 at 10:00 AM
Gary Clennan
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p.17 #16 · Leica 'M10"


Alpha_Geist wrote:
Interesting...I've been using the in camera profiles, but not enabling LR's lens profiles


Me too....



Jan 25, 2017 at 10:30 AM
rscheffler
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p.17 #17 · Leica 'M10"



Alpha_Geist wrote:
Looks like the in camera profiles may solely be for color shift and lens identification only while the LR lens profiles are for distortion. I hope to have the M10 by this Saturday at the latest. I'd like to experiment with disabling the in camera profiles and seeing the differences between different lenses in LR. Sold the 262, so I can't experiment with that camera anymore.


That is my experience and understanding. Sometimes I enable LR lens profile correction and only have noticed distortion correction and not vignetting or color shift correction (with M240 DNGs). This makes sense because color shift correction is baked into M series DNGs.

I think the confusion about the M10 is whether settings applied by it to DNGs are automatically populated in LR, including lens profile correction (seems like NR is). If I read Sandy's M10 DNG analysis correctly, the DNGs don't contain 'opcode' corrections like the Q and SL, but do include lens model info which presumably LR uses to reference the correct profile in its database.



Jan 25, 2017 at 02:10 PM
flash
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p.17 #18 · Leica 'M10"


The in camera profiles are designed to correct the issues of a big sensor close to the lens that wouldn't occur with film. So Italian flag. Some vignetting but not all. Some CA on the edges. Lens profiles try to leave the character of the lens untouched.

LR profiles try to fully correct a lens. Distortion. CA, and completely remove vignetting. If you like more "perfect" lenses then you'll use the LR profiles and lose some of the character of the lens.

Corner fix and Flat Field are in the middle. The completely remove colour casts and vignetting but don't do distortion or CA.

Gordon



Jan 25, 2017 at 04:07 PM
joakim
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p.17 #19 · Leica 'M10"


And now are the M-240's showing up at the used market here in Sweden at attractive prices...


Jan 25, 2017 at 05:23 PM
uhoh7
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p.17 #20 · Leica 'M10"


joakim wrote:
And now are the M-240's showing up at the used market here in Sweden at attractive prices...

Like under 3400USD? (that's been the "attractive price" prior to M10)

OK here we go with the CV 21/4 WO on M9. No editing in LR at all. Shot RAW exported as JPEG.

Can you tell which is which



L1056689 by unoh7, on Flickr


L1056688 by unoh7, on Flickr

One has the Elmarit 21/2.8 pre-asph profile, auto-detected from the LTM to M adapter which I coded with at sharpie.

You can find the fulls on flickr, I'm not sure if the edges/corners are sharper, or if there is new noise after such a big change. Now you might ask, OK that's F/4, but what about F/8:


f/8b by unoh7, on Flickr


f/8 by unoh7, on Flickr

These are actually perfect conditions to show colorcast in my experience, as the cloud layer will pick things up. But compare to the A7.mod shot a few posts up. I think it is more extreme, no?

I'd love to see the same test on a 240 and M10 with this lens.
BTW focus infinity, all shots. I was surprised to see so much vignette at f/8.

What is fun about this lens (I have SEM 21 also), you can just put it on and forget the viewfinder.....ANY viewfinder, and at 115 grams it's as light as the camera gets. Here is zoned at f/4 with little care, and I held it well away from my body and snapped one:


L1056687 by unoh7, on Flickr

Technically the lens is better than this, centrally it's quite sharp, but I still like the shot. So the CV 21/4 you can shoot literally from the hip with M. Somebody with more practice would get a good hit rate too

Nico is the real expert with it, and he get's fantastic architecture images, I think mostly at f/11. I think he tried 4 of them before he got one he really liked, though.

Edited on Jan 25, 2017 at 10:01 PM · View previous versions



Jan 25, 2017 at 09:33 PM
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