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Archive 2015Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
p.8 #1Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
molson wrote:
The only really good EVF's right now are on Olympus and Fuji cameras.
I would've said there are no good EVF's right now.
In an all around sense, anyway. I find them all pretty good in nice mid-morning sun. But by mid-day when the shadows get harsher they don't have enough dynamic range, and then as the sun starts to set or you move indoors the framerate drops to -3 fps and noise takes over the image.
WYSIWYG is undoubtedly what we want vs "who knows what aperture this focusing screen is equivalent to and does it even matter if the thing is out of calibration," and EVF is unquestionably the future. But EVF, sadly, is not yet the present.
The only really good EVF's right now are on Olympus and Fuji cameras.
I would've said there are no good EVF's right now.
In an all around sense, anyway. I find them all pretty good in nice mid-morning sun. But by mid-day when the shadows get harsher they don't have enough dynamic range, and then as the sun starts to set or you move indoors the framerate drops to -3 fps and noise takes over the image.
WYSIWYG is undoubtedly what we want vs "who knows what aperture this focusing screen is equivalent to and does it even matter if the thing is out of calibration," and EVF is unquestionably the future. But EVF, sadly, is not yet the present.
Sep 10, 2015 at 09:46 PM
p.8 #2Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Lee Saxon wrote:
I would've said there are no good EVF's right now.
In an all around sense, anyway. I find them all pretty good in nice mid-morning sun. But by mid-day when the shadows get harsher they don't have enough dynamic range, and then as the sun starts to set or you move indoors the framerate drops to -3 fps and noise takes over the image.
WYSIWYG is undoubtedly what we want vs "who knows what aperture this focusing screen is equivalent to and does it even matter if the thing is out of calibration," and EVF is unquestionably the future. But EVF,...Show more →
I found the A7r finder was really giving me a headache after a while. I'm hoping there will be better and faster EVFs in the 2018-2020 timeframe and we can see than in the Canon EF and Nikon F mounts.
EBH
molson wrote
The only really good EVF's right now are on Olympus and Fuji cameras.In an all around sense, anyway. I find them all pretty good in nice mid-morning sun. But by mid-day when the shadows get harsher they don't have enough dynamic range, and then as the sun starts to set or you move indoors the framerate drops to -3 fps and noise takes over the image.
WYSIWYG is undoubtedly what we want vs "who knows what aperture this focusing screen is equivalent to and does it even matter if the thing is out of calibration," and EVF is unquestionably the future. But EVF,...Show more →
I found the A7r finder was really giving me a headache after a while. I'm hoping there will be better and faster EVFs in the 2018-2020 timeframe and we can see than in the Canon EF and Nikon F mounts.
EBH
Sep 10, 2015 at 10:10 PM
p.8 #3Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Lee Saxon wrote:
molson wrote
The only really good EVF's right now are on Olympus and Fuji cameras.In an all around sense, anyway. I find them all pretty good in nice mid-morning sun. But by mid-day when the shadows get harsher they don't have enough dynamic range, and then as the sun starts to set or you move indoors the framerate drops to -3 fps and noise takes over the image.
WYSIWYG is undoubtedly what we want vs "who knows what aperture this focusing screen is equivalent to and does it even matter if the thing is out of calibration," and EVF is unquestionably the future. But EVF,...Show more →
Huh.
Maybe my eyes are significantly better, but I have no problems accurately manually focusing in dim indoor environments, scenes needing f/2, ISO 12800, and 1/40. Concerts and kids, dynamic scenes, not still life. I'm sure I could frame with a DSLR OVF, but I can't imagine MFing very well.
Sep 10, 2015 at 10:41 PM
p.8 #4Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
No Autofocus = not for me. Hell it's one of the main reasons I still shoot Canon; the superb AF. If I wanted to manual focus I'd shoot Sony with the EVF and focus peaking. Although my 42nd birthday is fast approaching; I'd certainly take the 21mm for a present. 
Sep 10, 2015 at 11:02 PM
p.8 #5Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Steve Spencer wrote:
EBH
in all seriousness, if you want zeiss lenses with AF they make them in sony mount now...I have no use for Sony mount for a few more years at least.
Is there a technical issue preventing Nikon AF or does Sony pay the Zeiss for exclusivity?
EBHThe technical issue is that Nikon has proprietary code for their AF. Other manufacturers reverse engineer the AF. Zeiss has no desire to do that and I doubt they will. Zeiss does make Fuji AF lenses in the Touit series, so that is at least acceptable, but I don't they will make Canon or Nikon can expect Zeiss AF lenses unless they permit open access to the code for their AF.
Thought it had to do with not supporting AF on pure PDAF systems...
EB-1 wrote
EB-1 wrote
Still no AF in 2015 EBH
sebboh wrote
thank god too! there are plenty of companies making great AF lenses already, wish they'd make some manual focus lenses for us weird folks.in all seriousness, if you want zeiss lenses with AF they make them in sony mount now...
Is there a technical issue preventing Nikon AF or does Sony pay the Zeiss for exclusivity?
EBH
Thought it had to do with not supporting AF on pure PDAF systems...
Sep 10, 2015 at 11:13 PM
p.8 #6Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
We all have different preferences but I find manual focus is most enjoyable with an OVF with some focusing aids: split image screen for DSLR or the rangefinder in Leica M. The EVF do give me headaches and I would only use them with AF lenses, or for emergencies with manual lenses.
Sep 10, 2015 at 11:26 PM
p.8 #7Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
johnctharp wrote:
EBH
in all seriousness, if you want zeiss lenses with AF they make them in sony mount now...I have no use for Sony mount for a few more years at least.
Is there a technical issue preventing Nikon AF or does Sony pay the Zeiss for exclusivity?
EBHThe technical issue is that Nikon has proprietary code for their AF. Other manufacturers reverse engineer the AF. Zeiss has no desire to do that and I doubt they will. Zeiss does make Fuji AF lenses in the Touit series, so that is at least acceptable, but I don't they will make Canon or Nikon can expect Zeiss AF lenses unless they permit open access to the code for their AF.Thought it had to do with not supporting AF on pure PDAF systems...
zeiss does claim that PDAF systems are not accurate/precise enough for maximal image quality. i tend to agree, but it could just be marketing speak for "we don't know enough about making AF work with other peoples cameras when they won't share how their AF works".
as far as sony paying zeiss not to make AF lenses for other mounts, i believe they just have a deal that zeiss can't use the sony/zeiss designs for other mounts. the touits in fuji mount seem to indicate that zeiss is legally able to produce AF lenses for other mounts.
Steve Spencer wrote
EB-1 wrote
EB-1 wrote
Still no AF in 2015 EBH
sebboh wrote
thank god too! there are plenty of companies making great AF lenses already, wish they'd make some manual focus lenses for us weird folks.in all seriousness, if you want zeiss lenses with AF they make them in sony mount now...
Is there a technical issue preventing Nikon AF or does Sony pay the Zeiss for exclusivity?
EBH
zeiss does claim that PDAF systems are not accurate/precise enough for maximal image quality. i tend to agree, but it could just be marketing speak for "we don't know enough about making AF work with other peoples cameras when they won't share how their AF works".
as far as sony paying zeiss not to make AF lenses for other mounts, i believe they just have a deal that zeiss can't use the sony/zeiss designs for other mounts. the touits in fuji mount seem to indicate that zeiss is legally able to produce AF lenses for other mounts.
Sep 10, 2015 at 11:31 PM
p.8 #8Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
sebboh wrote:
EBH
in all seriousness, if you want zeiss lenses with AF they make them in sony mount now...I have no use for Sony mount for a few more years at least.
Is there a technical issue preventing Nikon AF or does Sony pay the Zeiss for exclusivity?
EBHThe technical issue is that Nikon has proprietary code for their AF. Other manufacturers reverse engineer the AF. Zeiss has no desire to do that and I doubt they will. Zeiss does make Fuji AF lenses in the Touit series, so that is at least acceptable, but I don't they will make Canon or Nikon can expect Zeiss AF lenses unless they permit open access to the code for their AF.Thought it had to do with not supporting AF on pure PDAF systems...zeiss does claim that PDAF systems are not accurate/precise enough for maximal image quality. i tend to agree, but it could just be marketing speak for "we don't know enough about making AF work with other peoples cameras when they won't share how their AF works".
as far as sony paying zeiss not to make AF lenses for other mounts, i believe they just have a deal that zeiss can't use the sony/zeiss designs for other mounts. the touits in fuji mount seem to indicate that zeiss is legally able to produce AF lenses for other mounts.
Which is certainly understandable, either way. With CDAF (or a CDAF-based hybrid, as in the better mirrorless setups), focus is either on or off, and failures are more than likely user error.
With PDAF, if it's off, who knows
.
johnctharp wrote
Steve Spencer wrote
EB-1 wrote
EB-1 wrote
Still no AF in 2015 EBH
sebboh wrote
thank god too! there are plenty of companies making great AF lenses already, wish they'd make some manual focus lenses for us weird folks.in all seriousness, if you want zeiss lenses with AF they make them in sony mount now...
Is there a technical issue preventing Nikon AF or does Sony pay the Zeiss for exclusivity?
EBH
as far as sony paying zeiss not to make AF lenses for other mounts, i believe they just have a deal that zeiss can't use the sony/zeiss designs for other mounts. the touits in fuji mount seem to indicate that zeiss is legally able to produce AF lenses for other mounts.
Which is certainly understandable, either way. With CDAF (or a CDAF-based hybrid, as in the better mirrorless setups), focus is either on or off, and failures are more than likely user error.
With PDAF, if it's off, who knows
.Sep 10, 2015 at 11:36 PM
p.8 #9Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Well, the other thing is that Sony is the underdog that wants to get to the #2 spot. CaNikon currently occupy the #1 and #2 spots, so it's in their interest to keep everyone from making quality AF lenses that work on their bodies.
Whereas Sony wants to climb rapidly, so I would imagine they'd freely share their AF tech with Zeiss in order for Zeiss to make AF lenses for their mounts. Everybody wins, basically. Except CaNikon.
Whereas Sony wants to climb rapidly, so I would imagine they'd freely share their AF tech with Zeiss in order for Zeiss to make AF lenses for their mounts. Everybody wins, basically. Except CaNikon.
Sep 10, 2015 at 11:44 PM
p.8 #10Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Sam_W wrote:
Well, the other thing is that Sony is the underdog that wants to get to the #2 spot. CaNikon currently occupy the #1 and #2 spots, so it's in their interest to keep everyone from making quality AF lenses that work on their bodies.
Whereas Sony wants to climb rapidly, so I would imagine they'd freely share their AF tech with Zeiss in order for Zeiss to make AF lenses for their mounts. Everybody wins, basically. Except CaNikon.
The E-mount is open...
Well, the other thing is that Sony is the underdog that wants to get to the #2 spot. CaNikon currently occupy the #1 and #2 spots, so it's in their interest to keep everyone from making quality AF lenses that work on their bodies.
Whereas Sony wants to climb rapidly, so I would imagine they'd freely share their AF tech with Zeiss in order for Zeiss to make AF lenses for their mounts. Everybody wins, basically. Except CaNikon.
The E-mount is open...
Sep 10, 2015 at 11:57 PM
p.8 #11Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Looks like these are aiming at the set-piece enviroment: studio and video set.
If only they would put such energy into something the size and weight of a 35 cron asph. These things make the ZM 35/1.4 look like a feather, and I doubt they have much on it performance wise either.
That's probably exactly the point they would make when I complained
The ZM is the only recent Zeiss offering which seriously tempts me, but looks like they will come out of this effort with some new Canikon benchmarks. And those shooters will save money on weight training.
What are they called again, the Mildreds?
If only they would put such energy into something the size and weight of a 35 cron asph. These things make the ZM 35/1.4 look like a feather, and I doubt they have much on it performance wise either.
That's probably exactly the point they would make when I complained
The ZM is the only recent Zeiss offering which seriously tempts me, but looks like they will come out of this effort with some new Canikon benchmarks. And those shooters will save money on weight training.
What are they called again, the Mildreds?
Sep 11, 2015 at 12:11 AM
p.8 #12Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
craigjohn wrote:
When are they going to update the ZM line? ...and add an 85mm f/2.
edwardkaraa wrote:
They had one and no one wanted to buy it
Zeiss were ahead of the curve back then with such a costly, high performance 85mm lens. If they could have held out a couple more years, they may have benefitted from the M9 momentum and shortage of Leica M lens. That's one lens I wouldn't mind seeing repackaged. Even better if they could tweak it to minimize purple fringing... That said, I would prefer to see a ZM 50/1.4 to compete against Leica's Lux ASPH and AA.
When are they going to update the ZM line? ...and add an 85mm f/2.
edwardkaraa wrote:
They had one and no one wanted to buy it
Zeiss were ahead of the curve back then with such a costly, high performance 85mm lens. If they could have held out a couple more years, they may have benefitted from the M9 momentum and shortage of Leica M lens. That's one lens I wouldn't mind seeing repackaged. Even better if they could tweak it to minimize purple fringing... That said, I would prefer to see a ZM 50/1.4 to compete against Leica's Lux ASPH and AA.
Sep 11, 2015 at 12:21 AM
p.8 #13Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
jcolwell wrote:
So you were sh*tt*ng me. 
There's one born every minute. In this case, it was 21815 days ago.
I didn't get it either...
rico wrote
As Lee says,...There's one born every minute. In this case, it was 21815 days ago.
I didn't get it either...
Sep 11, 2015 at 01:00 AM
p.8 #14Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
rscheffler wrote:
craigjohn wrote
When are they going to update the ZM line? ...and add an 85mm f/2.edwardkaraa wrote
They had one and no one wanted to buy itFully agreed
Sep 11, 2015 at 01:01 AM
p.8 #15Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
philip_pj wrote:
"Its performance, particularly the perfect correction of lateral chromatic aberration, was achieved solely by the combination of very special (and expensive) high index glass types with glass types displaying extremely high anomalous partial dispersion." - Zeiss on the CY Distagon, in the white paper of the design name series.
They knew quite a bit back in the days of old Rome, circa 1993 ;-) And in fact this expensive glass is the reason the later D21 has an extra element - to attempt to make up for lost correction with less expensive glass. True, the big recent design gains are that...Show more →
I'm glad you appreciated the Marcus Aurelius reference
You're saying the 16/13 version used more "regular" glass than the 15/13? That's interesting I hadn't heard that. Maybe I should consider looking for one of those instead of the newly-$300-off 21 ZF.2...
Still, 1993 is quite a ways back in lens design, especially UWA, and in technology in general. I do wonder if what was very special glass then still is. As I mentioned at some point in this or Jim's thread, today one has to look at the speed, performance, and size/weight (even with AF motors the Zeiss lacks) of the Nikon 20/1.8G and wonder if, even at a Milvus rather than Otus price target, the latest materials/techniques could've allowed Zeiss to give us a much smaller (or an even more impressive) 21/2.8. Or a both, perhaps the former branded Milvus the latter branded Otus. I would've been much more interested in any of those options than in a 7th (!!! - C/Y, ZF, ZF.2, CP, CP.2, Milvus) iteration of the old one.
Edited on Sep 11, 2015 at 01:15 AM · View previous versions
"Its performance, particularly the perfect correction of lateral chromatic aberration, was achieved solely by the combination of very special (and expensive) high index glass types with glass types displaying extremely high anomalous partial dispersion." - Zeiss on the CY Distagon, in the white paper of the design name series.
They knew quite a bit back in the days of old Rome, circa 1993 ;-) And in fact this expensive glass is the reason the later D21 has an extra element - to attempt to make up for lost correction with less expensive glass. True, the big recent design gains are that...Show more →
I'm glad you appreciated the Marcus Aurelius reference
You're saying the 16/13 version used more "regular" glass than the 15/13? That's interesting I hadn't heard that. Maybe I should consider looking for one of those instead of the newly-$300-off 21 ZF.2...
Still, 1993 is quite a ways back in lens design, especially UWA, and in technology in general. I do wonder if what was very special glass then still is. As I mentioned at some point in this or Jim's thread, today one has to look at the speed, performance, and size/weight (even with AF motors the Zeiss lacks) of the Nikon 20/1.8G and wonder if, even at a Milvus rather than Otus price target, the latest materials/techniques could've allowed Zeiss to give us a much smaller (or an even more impressive) 21/2.8. Or a both, perhaps the former branded Milvus the latter branded Otus. I would've been much more interested in any of those options than in a 7th (!!! - C/Y, ZF, ZF.2, CP, CP.2, Milvus) iteration of the old one.
Edited on Sep 11, 2015 at 01:15 AM · View previous versions
Sep 11, 2015 at 01:12 AM
p.8 #16Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Lee Saxon wrote:
We joke, but this ultracompact line is a great idea (except the building it in Germany part haha). I'm actually in the planning stages of exactly that with my own company, though I think f/4 and f/5.6 are excessive and you can get the sizes you want at f/2.8 or even f/2 at most focal lengths. Zeiss has kind of gone insane with lens size since the Otus was released (and the size of this new 50 and 85 bear that out), but if you look at Nikon's new 1.8's, even the UWA's...
That was the appeal of the first two Loxia lenses to me - they traded speed for a compact size. Too bad they were redundant focal lengths and not particularly competitive price-wise. I'd still consider springing for a Wide angle Loxia if they make one with the same tradeoffs.
We joke, but this ultracompact line is a great idea (except the building it in Germany part haha). I'm actually in the planning stages of exactly that with my own company, though I think f/4 and f/5.6 are excessive and you can get the sizes you want at f/2.8 or even f/2 at most focal lengths. Zeiss has kind of gone insane with lens size since the Otus was released (and the size of this new 50 and 85 bear that out), but if you look at Nikon's new 1.8's, even the UWA's...
That was the appeal of the first two Loxia lenses to me - they traded speed for a compact size. Too bad they were redundant focal lengths and not particularly competitive price-wise. I'd still consider springing for a Wide angle Loxia if they make one with the same tradeoffs.
Sep 11, 2015 at 01:13 AM
p.8 #17Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Well, Zeiss did release a Loxia 21 f:2.8 yesterday...
Sep 11, 2015 at 01:22 AM
p.8 #18Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
itai195 wrote:
Too bad they were redundant focal lengths and not particularly competitive price-wise. I'd still consider springing for a Wide angle Loxia if they make one with the same tradeoffs.
Not only that they are a decade old designs. Back then people were shooting film not 42MP digital cameras and the major manufacturers have come a long way since then so the Loxias are not that competitive in most aspects.
Lee Saxon wrote
We joke, but this ultracompact line is a great idea (except the building it in Germany part haha). I'm actually in the planning stages of exactly that with my own company, though I think f/4 and f/5.6 are excessive and you can get the sizes you want at f/2.8 or even f/2 at most focal lengths. Zeiss has kind of gone insane with lens size since the Otus was released (and the size of this new 50 and 85 bear that out), but if you look at Nikon's new 1.8's, even the UWA's...Not only that they are a decade old designs. Back then people were shooting film not 42MP digital cameras and the major manufacturers have come a long way since then so the Loxias are not that competitive in most aspects.
Sep 11, 2015 at 01:29 AM
p.8 #19Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
philber wrote:
Well, Zeiss did release a Loxia 21 f:2.8 yesterday...
Did they? I can't find anything on google or on Zeiss.de about it.
Well, Zeiss did release a Loxia 21 f:2.8 yesterday...
Did they? I can't find anything on google or on Zeiss.de about it.
Sep 11, 2015 at 01:33 AM
p.8 #20Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Phillip Reeve wrote:
Too bad they were redundant focal lengths and not particularly competitive price-wise. I'd still consider springing for a Wide angle Loxia if they make one with the same tradeoffs.Not only that they are a decade old designs. Back then people were shooting film not 42MP digital cameras and the major manufacturers have come a long way since then so the Loxias are not that competitive in most aspects.
The ZM on which the Loxia are based, are very fine lenses, and can compete with the best lenses from other manufacturers, but with a thin sensor cover as used on a Leica M. The Loxia problem is the sensor cover, which despite the slight tweaking of the designs, they don't seem to really like it.
itai195 wrote
Lee Saxon wrote
We joke, but this ultracompact line is a great idea (except the building it in Germany part haha). I'm actually in the planning stages of exactly that with my own company, though I think f/4 and f/5.6 are excessive and you can get the sizes you want at f/2.8 or even f/2 at most focal lengths. Zeiss has kind of gone insane with lens size since the Otus was released (and the size of this new 50 and 85 bear that out), but if you look at Nikon's new 1.8's, even the UWA's...The ZM on which the Loxia are based, are very fine lenses, and can compete with the best lenses from other manufacturers, but with a thin sensor cover as used on a Leica M. The Loxia problem is the sensor cover, which despite the slight tweaking of the designs, they don't seem to really like it.
Sep 11, 2015 at 01:35 AM