I know that paul's presentation does not always 'fit like a glove' with everyone, but it just hit me in a way that I felt a reminder of how unique the scenario is might be worthwhile. The excellent civility and politeness of FMers sometimes renders the majority VERY SILENT ... and I can at times feel compelled to 'say something' ... hopefully useful.
I guess that if these are working with the Einsteins, they will be compatible with all strobes ? (I'm refering to how some inverters, Vag1, won't work with D-Lites, or BXRis)
The Einsteins also work with the earlier battery packs. They're also designed to tolerate undervoltage.
Paul, is there any possibility of PCB getting into continuous lighting, something efficient enough (e.g., CFL or LED) that it can be powered by a Vagabond or Mini-Lithium for a few hours? Strobes work really well for still photography but not so well for video, even if both are being done with the same camera.
I've been hoping that something with these specs and small footprint would come to market. When is this projected due date on these? This is a good move, Paul.
All designs have been finalized and thoroughly tested, and documented for performance, efficiency, temperature control, recycle times and all other parameters. Batteries and inverters have been ordered and are in production. These major components are fully tested by the vendors before coming to us, and vendors of these major components are reliable and proven. All molds are now being made, with first samples due in mid October. All parts are scheduled to be in house by November 7-15. Because of the highly modular design, assembly and testing should be straightforward, so production should begin as soon as all components are received. We have ordered rather substantial quantities of all components so we don't expect any long backorders.
Bob Howland wrote:
Paul, is there any possibility of PCB getting into continuous lighting, something efficient enough (e.g., CFL or LED) that it can be powered by a Vagabond or Mini-Lithium for a few hours? Strobes work really well for still photography but not so well for video, even if both are being done with the same camera.
We have no intention to get into video lighting at this point. Even with the most efficient light sources, the demands on battery operation are prohibitive for anything but casual amateur use. Gas generators remain the only real viable power source for serious continuous location lighting.
Paul Buff wrote:
All designs have been finalized and thoroughly tested, and documented for performance, efficiency, temperature control, recycle times and all other parameters. Batteries and inverters have been ordered and are in production. These major components are fully tested by the vendors before coming to us, and vendors of these major components are reliable and proven. All molds are now being made, with first samples due in mid October. All parts are scheduled to be in house by November 7-15. Because of the highly modular design, assembly and testing should be straightforward, so production should begin as soon as all components are received. We have ordered rather substantial quantities of all components so we don't expect any long backorders....Show more →
Well, I'm a nobody who has some Alien Bees, and all I can say is I sincerely hope you have really ordered 'substantial quantities', because this product has winner written all over it! Nice going, and looking forward to ordering one.
adamdewilde wrote:
Paul one question when you have a chance, say I have a 55w LED light that runs on AC 120-240v, is it possible to power it from the VB2 or VBM?
If so, how long will it last from each pack?
I'm not Paul, but I may be able to answer part of your question, assuming I've recalled my USCG ELT training correctly. Tests 1 and 2 at the bottom of this page:
were at 3840Ws/minute, the same as 64Ws/sec or 64 Watts. (A Ws is the same as a Joule. A Watt is an energy transfer at the rate of one Joule/second.) Your 55W LED light should remain lit for about 1-1/2 hours. I can't say whether it damages the Vagabond/Mini-Lithium, but running an inverter at torture-test loads continuously can't be good for its health.
I think that, regardless of whether Paul wants to or not, the merger of still photography and video is going to force him to get into continuous lighting.
I think you're getting a lot of these questiong like Adam just posed because many of us are moving into shooting HD with our dslr's. My primary interest is also using the Vagabond Mini as a source of power for LED lights. I just shot a commercial for Goldman Sachs on a 5D II and the VML would have perfect for much of the run and gun shooting we did using lightweight LED's. If a small battery can somehow be strapped or carried by an individual on a moving shot while hand-holding one of the LED's that would be invaluable and could be a whole other market for the VML.
Why would one want to use an inverter based battery power source to drive an LED light which is using a voltage converter to make the 120AC into some lower DC voltage?
Why not just find an LED light source that can be driven by a battery and then find the proper battery?
All the voltage conversions are eating power.
And, in anticipation of someone saying they want to use the same lights that they use with AC, it seems easiest to find out what DC voltage is being delivered from the AC/DC converter and finding a way to apply the DC battery power there.
CanadianEh wrote:
Paul, any ETA on when pre-orders will start?
This product is fully developed so we are not going to do pre orders per se. We will be putting the product on the web next week with an projected shipping date. This is not that much different than a pre order in that we never charge credit cards until a product ships, thus if a customer orders a product and later decides to cancel, that is acceptable.
Some question why we announce a product before it is ready to ship. The answer is simple . . . first, it allows customers to plan their purchases ahead of time without the fear a new product is going to become available the day after they buy, and also this gives us an ability to project how many we are going to need to build in what time frame.
We have placed blanket orders for 10,000 batteries and inverters . . . the core components, with 2500 to be delivered per month beginning in early November. These scheduled orders can be adjusted according to our demand. Both suppliers are substantial established companies and able to ramp up or slow down production schedules according to our needs. Our molder can produce any number of parts we need on about a 15 day schedule.
One has to remember the global economy has caused increased lead times on many electronic components. This doesn't affect the battery manufacturer too much, but does effect the inverter supplier. They have to know how many parts to order (as we do) and can run into 8-12 week parts lead times. This is why we schedule orders in advance.
On an established product like AB, we know what the monthly demand is, so scheduling orders is not that difficult (we have schedules in place for the next year) But with a new product with unknown sales level . . . Einstein/Vagabond Mini Lithium the only way I have to make these projections is by a calculated/educated estimate, and by feedback based on early orders.
One more note: The economic downturn has made every product very price sensitive. Consequently we have priced Vagabond Mini lower than normal conditions would suggest. Because of this, it will not be considered an "Accessory", rather, a "Core product" As such, the product will not be eligible for the accessory discount we apply to reflectors, stands, umbrellas, etc.
dmward wrote:
Why would one want to use an inverter based battery power source to drive an LED light which is using a voltage converter to make the 120AC into some lower DC voltage?
Why not just find an LED light source that can be driven by a battery and then find the proper battery?
All the voltage conversions are eating power.
And, in anticipation of someone saying they want to use the same lights that they use with AC, it seems easiest to find out what DC voltage is being delivered from the AC/DC converter and finding a way to apply the DC battery power there....Show more →
Tis is exactly correct. The appropriate way to power and LED continuous lighting system is directly from a properly designed Lithium battery. Battery packs can be made at any voltage and current from 3.2V to hundreds of volts.
This brings us back to the subject of efficiency: In designing Vagabond Mini I had hundreds of communications with dozens of Lithium battery manufacturers and many samples. I insisted on achieving exceedingly low "battery pack internal resistance", and most argued "Why is this so important to you". The answer is simple if one understands power transfer: It is largely the internal resistance of the battery that causes battery heating and efficiency loss because the power intended for the load is lost in the battery itself as heat. Thanks to a really good vendor, my demands were met and even exceeded, thus the battery runs very cool in spite of the high pulse current, and the efficiency from battery to flash output is extremely high. As one poster mentioned this results in more wattseconds per charge, per pound and per dollar.
I've been thinking it over, and I'm likely to buy three of the new lithium packs to try out. If they perform as I hope, I will then order two more. The big thing for me will come down to how well they cope with 30 below zero temps. My own experience is that lithiums are the best battery in those conditions.
Now, back to the mini-light discussion. A small 300ws light, with collapsible or fold up reflectors, adapter to take regular PCB light modifiers, and a plug in lithium battery such as the ones already available from Black & Decker would be simply awesome. It seems to me it would match the trend of products becomming smaller, more compact, more capable. Such a light would not need heavy lightstands, further lowering the weight & bulk of the system. A small 300ws light would pair very nicely with lightweight stands such as Bogen Nano or Raven RS-8. These would have four times as much power as the $450 Nikon SB-900. They could easily be put in rafters of sports areanas. An entire system would fit into a hard case that's smaller than those made for golfclubs and be perfect for travel. Or, load about four of them into a backpack and head off anywhere to remote places now very difficult to bring pro lighting systems to. I'm thinking that if I switch to a very high ISO efficient camera sensor such as Nikon D3x, I could use a light this portable to light up a freaking train in Tibet! In Latin, "vagabond" means "to wander." With a lightweight but potent system like this, you truly could wander anywhere with it!
Two23 wrote:
Now, back to the mini-light discussion. A small 300ws light, with collapsible or fold up reflectors, adapter to take regular PCB light modifiers, and a plug in lithium battery such as the ones already available from Black & Decker would be simply awesome. It seems to me it would match the trend of products becomming smaller, more compact, more capable. Such a light would not need heavy lightstands, further lowering the weight & bulk of the system. A small 300ws light would pair very nicely with lightweight stands such as Bogen Nano or Raven RS-8. These would have four times as much power as the $450 Nikon SB-900. They could easily be put in rafters of sports areanas. An entire system would fit into a hard case that's smaller than those made for golfclubs and be perfect for travel. Or, load about four of them into a backpack and head off anywhere to remote places now very difficult to bring pro lighting systems to. I'm thinking that if I switch to a very high ISO efficient camera sensor such as Nikon D3x, I could use a light this portable to light up a freaking train in Tibet! In Latin, "vagabond" means "to wander." With a lightweight but potent system like this, you truly could wander anywhere with it!
Kent in SD...Show more →
These Already exist.
Elinchrom Ranger Quadras.
400ws, extremely small, 2 units pluggable per pack (might be assymetric power though can't remember) And the flashes themselfs are probably the size of a SB-900 if not smaller.
But i'm guessing you meant all that, but cheap. Which the quadras are not...
Size plays a major role in cost, and if you wanted something like a mini-einstein (The size of a sb-900) you'd likely pay alot more then the regular einstein.
Bob Howland wrote:
I'm not Paul, but I may be able to answer part of your question, assuming I've recalled my USCG ELT training correctly. Tests 1 and 2 at the bottom of this page:
were at 3840Ws/minute, the same as 64Ws/sec or 64 Watts. (A Ws is the same as a Joule. A Watt is an energy transfer at the rate of one Joule/second.) Your 55W LED light should remain lit for about 1-1/2 hours. I can't say whether it damages the Vagabond/Mini-Lithium, but running an inverter at torture-test loads continuously can't be good for its health.
I think that, regardless of whether Paul wants to or not, the merger of still photography and video is going to force him to get into continuous lighting....Show more →
Good understanding of the physics. But don't forget the all important efficiency . . . 69.7% in this case. To achieve the 64 watts mentioned, the inverter is outputting 64W/.697 or 91.9W. The battery is rated at 130 watt hours and the inverter is rated at 120W continuous output power, so one could expect the Vagabond Mini to power a continuous load at a maximum of 120 watts, for 130wH x .697 = 90 net wH.
This comes out 55W for 1.6 hours, or 120W for 3/4 hour. But this assumes the efficiency of the LED driving circuitry is 100% . . . not likely.
This leads back to the correct way to do this is directly from an appropriate battery, skipping the inverter stage. For instance, our 130wH 14.6V battery can deliver continuous power of about 250W directly and remain within it design parameters.
400ws, extremely small, 2 units pluggable per pack (might be assymetric power though can't remember) And the flashes themselfs are probably the size of a SB-900 if not smaller.
But i'm guessing you meant all that, but cheap. Which the quadras are not...
Sounds good in theory, but a bunch of bugs in practice. First, a Black and Decker battery will cost you close to double per watt hour than our battery. Second, you can't mount studio flash accessories (at least not ours) on an SB size head without adapting (strengthening) the stand mount and adding adapters . . . a kluge. Then you have to have a rather expensive cable to connect the head to the pack . . . unless you want to settle for low power and long flash durations or a heavy cable and high cost (read: Quadra).
Concept ideas are easy . . . . but by the time you think this all out and spend a year or so on it you'll likely end up the same place I would . . . a 200-300WS monolight with built-in battery and genuine studio flash mount, designed to minimize size and weight.
