Archive 2010 · Vagabond Mini Lithium
p.2 #1Vagabond Mini Lithium
c2thew wrote:
^
I knew this was bound to happen. Every photgrapher will want to have one on each light.
The only forseeable issue is the recycle time. Not that i'm downplaying the product, but if the recycle time is significantly longer than the vagabond 2, then photographers might "might" stick with the original.
But the hype for this is already bubbling. I want one as badly as I want the plm II's
but but but.. every photog needs no more extension cords everywhere from a V2. Plus its good to have two for backup and a V2 in the trunk. Moreover, this could be easier to fly with.
^
I knew this was bound to happen. Every photgrapher will want to have one on each light.The only forseeable issue is the recycle time. Not that i'm downplaying the product, but if the recycle time is significantly longer than the vagabond 2, then photographers might "might" stick with the original.
But the hype for this is already bubbling. I want one as badly as I want the plm II's
but but but.. every photog needs no more extension cords everywhere from a V2. Plus its good to have two for backup and a V2 in the trunk. Moreover, this could be easier to fly with.
Sep 04, 2010 at 12:16 AM
Chris Beaumont
Offline
Activity
[X]
Details
p.2 #2Vagabond Mini Lithium
Csae wrote:
Would you be comfortable giving a recycle time for a full Einstein pop ?
20something seconds for Zeus 2500 = c.100w/s per second = around 6 seconds for an Einstein/AB1600.
Would you be comfortable giving a recycle time for a full Einstein pop ?
20something seconds for Zeus 2500 = c.100w/s per second = around 6 seconds for an Einstein/AB1600.
Sep 04, 2010 at 12:52 AM
p.2 #3Vagabond Mini Lithium
This is going to revolutionize location portraiture, especially outdoor portraiture. I've been using speedlights on location ONLY because of their lightness. Now you can get an AC/DC AB800/battery setup that weighs only 6 pounds and costs just a little more than a Canon 580EXII!!! A less versatile pack/head combo like a Lumedyne or Norman runs around $1400. Kudos to Paul!!
Sep 04, 2010 at 07:08 AM
p.2 #4Vagabond Mini Lithium
This is going to revolutionize location portraiture, especially outdoor portraiture. I've been using speedlights on location ONLY because of their lightness.
Wouldn't change my location portraiture much. I just haul the big batteries.
"Art is pain." -- John Lennon
Wouldn't change my location portraiture much. I just haul the big batteries.
"Art is pain." -- John Lennon
Sep 04, 2010 at 09:04 AM
p.2 #5Vagabond Mini Lithium
photobear wrote:
This is going to revolutionize location portraiture, especially outdoor portraiture. I've been using speedlights on location ONLY because of their lightness. Now you can get an AC/DC AB800/battery setup that weighs only 6 pounds and costs just a little more than a Canon 580EXII!!! A less versatile pack/head combo like a Lumedyne or Norman runs around $1400. Kudos to Paul!!
My Quadras still weigh a lot less... No-one is breaking any laws of physics right now, but the Lithium VB will give people another price-point to choose from.
I love doing location work with the quadras. It's nice to only have to put a few ounces on top of a lightstand, vs an entire monolight.
This is going to revolutionize location portraiture, especially outdoor portraiture. I've been using speedlights on location ONLY because of their lightness. Now you can get an AC/DC AB800/battery setup that weighs only 6 pounds and costs just a little more than a Canon 580EXII!!! A less versatile pack/head combo like a Lumedyne or Norman runs around $1400. Kudos to Paul!!
My Quadras still weigh a lot less... No-one is breaking any laws of physics right now, but the Lithium VB will give people another price-point to choose from.
I love doing location work with the quadras. It's nice to only have to put a few ounces on top of a lightstand, vs an entire monolight.
Sep 04, 2010 at 09:16 AM
p.2 #6Vagabond Mini Lithium
"Moreover, this could be easier to fly with."
Actually TSA might give you even more crap because they look just as suspicious as bringing a battery in a suit case.
"My Quadras still weigh a lot less... No-one is breaking any laws of physics right now, but the Lithium VB will give people another price-point to choose from."
Yeah, but elinchrom won't lower the pricepoint of the quadras which makes them OP in my opinion. If elinchrom had decided to produce quadras in mass quantities and lower their unit production costs, they would have created a huge demand for their product. But they are elinchrom and like to keep their products pricey which is their business strategy.
I predict another wave of backorders very very soon.
Actually TSA might give you even more crap because they look just as suspicious as bringing a battery in a suit case.
"My Quadras still weigh a lot less... No-one is breaking any laws of physics right now, but the Lithium VB will give people another price-point to choose from."
Yeah, but elinchrom won't lower the pricepoint of the quadras which makes them OP in my opinion. If elinchrom had decided to produce quadras in mass quantities and lower their unit production costs, they would have created a huge demand for their product. But they are elinchrom and like to keep their products pricey which is their business strategy.
I predict another wave of backorders very very soon.
Sep 04, 2010 at 11:19 AM
p.2 #8Vagabond Mini Lithium
VII does Zeus 2500 in about 9 seconds, Vagabond Mini Lithium (VML) in just over 20. A factor of about 2.3
Does that mean most recycle times will be about 2.3 times the VII (using the PCB chart for VII)?
Always want faster, but can deal with that.
Does that mean most recycle times will be about 2.3 times the VII (using the PCB chart for VII)?
Always want faster, but can deal with that.
Sep 04, 2010 at 11:36 AM
p.2 #9Vagabond Mini Lithium
"Yeah, but elinchrom won't lower the pricepoint of the quadras which makes them OP in my opinion. If elinchrom had decided to produce quadras in mass quantities and lower their unit production costs, they would have created a huge demand for their product. But they are elinchrom and like to keep their products pricey which is their business strategy."
Quality cost money. And it's a good thing to be profitable.
Quality cost money. And it's a good thing to be profitable.
Sep 04, 2010 at 11:50 AM
p.2 #10Vagabond Mini Lithium
Now all paul needs to do is come out with a REALLY small 300ws Einstein strobe with LED modeling lamp 
Sep 04, 2010 at 12:09 PM
p.2 #11Vagabond Mini Lithium
Chris Beaumont wrote:
20something seconds for Zeus 2500 = c.100w/s per second = around 6 seconds for an Einstein/AB1600.
Does it work that way?
I'm thinking that 6 seconds to full seems a bit long no?
though usually I'm shooting at around 100ws when I'm doing on location in a structure with no power, an around 400-600 when facing the setting sun. So 6 seconds isn't horrid... And I always have the VB if needed.
Csae wrote
Would you be comfortable giving a recycle time for a full Einstein pop ?Does it work that way?
I'm thinking that 6 seconds to full seems a bit long no?
though usually I'm shooting at around 100ws when I'm doing on location in a structure with no power, an around 400-600 when facing the setting sun. So 6 seconds isn't horrid... And I always have the VB if needed.
Sep 04, 2010 at 12:11 PM
p.2 #12Vagabond Mini Lithium
I am so happy about this announcement.. I almost cancelled my 2 month old preorder for Einsteins for some Eli-quadras.. hopefully they will be available by the time my number is called.
I agree with the comments about wanting PCB to create a smaller/lighter units for the ultra-portable solution.. easier to carry when travelling overseas.
I agree with the comments about wanting PCB to create a smaller/lighter units for the ultra-portable solution.. easier to carry when travelling overseas.
Sep 04, 2010 at 12:40 PM
p.2 #14Vagabond Mini Lithium
Not sure when desire for light battery packs really hit a tipping point (or feasibility point), but with all of the posts on FM about it, PCB responded fairly well (IMO).
Don't see any other vendors doing this.
Of course if PCB makes a 300WS - 400WS mini block or Quadra like pack-head, we'll all want 600WS in the same package!!! We'll never be satisfied, but it's all fun.
Looking forward to the VML.
Don't see any other vendors doing this.
Of course if PCB makes a 300WS - 400WS mini block or Quadra like pack-head, we'll all want 600WS in the same package!!! We'll never be satisfied, but it's all fun.
Looking forward to the VML.
Sep 04, 2010 at 01:56 PM
p.2 #15Vagabond Mini Lithium
adamdewilde wrote:
[
Does it work that way?
I'm thinking that 6 seconds to full seems a bit long no?
though usually I'm shooting at around 100ws when I'm doing on location in a structure with no power, an around 400-600 when facing the setting sun. So 6 seconds isn't horrid... And I always have the VB if needed.
Reading the existing specs on VII, the explaination discusses WS per second and total WS from a particular source, it seems that 5-6 seconds to 640WS follows from the just over 20 seconds for the 2400 WS Zeus.
[
Does it work that way?
I'm thinking that 6 seconds to full seems a bit long no?
though usually I'm shooting at around 100ws when I'm doing on location in a structure with no power, an around 400-600 when facing the setting sun. So 6 seconds isn't horrid... And I always have the VB if needed.
Reading the existing specs on VII, the explaination discusses WS per second and total WS from a particular source, it seems that 5-6 seconds to 640WS follows from the just over 20 seconds for the 2400 WS Zeus.
Sep 04, 2010 at 02:01 PM
p.2 #16Vagabond Mini Lithium
MNPNW wrote:
Reading the existing specs on VII, the explaination discusses WS per second and total WS from a particular source, it seems that 5-6 seconds to 640WS follows from the just over 20 seconds for the 2400 WS Zeus.
FWIW, my AIMS 180 based mini-pack driven by 5000 mAh worth of NiMH cells recycles the E640 to full power in the 5 to 6 second range. Drop power by a stop to 320WS and recycling speeds up considerably; more like 3 seconds or so.
Dave F.
Reading the existing specs on VII, the explaination discusses WS per second and total WS from a particular source, it seems that 5-6 seconds to 640WS follows from the just over 20 seconds for the 2400 WS Zeus.
FWIW, my AIMS 180 based mini-pack driven by 5000 mAh worth of NiMH cells recycles the E640 to full power in the 5 to 6 second range. Drop power by a stop to 320WS and recycling speeds up considerably; more like 3 seconds or so.
Dave F.
Sep 04, 2010 at 02:53 PM
p.2 #17Vagabond Mini Lithium
My fault... Paul was kind enough to spill some beans (I'm the nerd). Frankly, I'm still waiting for him to give Mindy some flowers. However, the news is exceptional and I think a much needed item in our bag. I love the Vagabond II I have as it took me a year to save for and frankly I've wanted one for over two years.
I'm glad Paul is looking to the future. Me, I'll pick up two more for the rest of my lights. Damn... I need (no want) so much more.
I'm glad Paul is looking to the future. Me, I'll pick up two more for the rest of my lights. Damn... I need (no want) so much more.
Sep 04, 2010 at 06:19 PM
p.2 #18Vagabond Mini Lithium
Robb Mann wrote:
My Quadras still weigh a lot less... No-one is breaking any laws of physics right now, but the Lithium VB will give people another price-point to choose from.
I love doing location work with the quadras. It's nice to only have to put a few ounces on top of a lightstand, vs an entire monolight.
I hope someone with more info than I can find on Elinchrom or B&H site and can provide more data. From what I can find, Quadra Ranger AS is 400WS and weighs 3lbs WITHOUT BATTERY, and provides 150 400WS pops from a 3.24AH SLA battery that weighs another 3.5lbs. That works out to 60,000 total flash WS per charge, or 16.7 flash watt hours from a 40 watt hour battery, for an efficacy of 42% . Specified weight for pack and battery, without flash head is 7.5lbs. The head weighs 1.43lbs for a total system weight of 8.43 lbs.
Vagabond Mini Lithium weighs 3.5lbs INCUDING 8.8AH 14.8V Lithium battery that produces 130 watt hours. When connected to an AlienBees 1600 (640WS) it produces 510 pops per charge at the full 640WS . . . 326,400WS per charge, or 90.6 flash watt hours, for an efficacy of 69%. The AB1600 weighs 3.5lbs for a total system weight of 7lbs.
The math says the Ranger provides 16.7 watt hours of flash, at 400WS in an 8.43lb package and the Vagabond Mini Lithium/AB1600 combination provides 90.6 watt hours of flash, at 640WS, at a total system weight of 7lbs. That's 5.4 times the flash energy per charge, 1.6 times the flash energy per pop and 83% the weight.
But these aren't apples to apples system since the AB can operate from AC and the Ranger can't.
I am not comparing the advantages or disadvantages of the two systems . . . only answering the post this replies to.
My Quadras still weigh a lot less... No-one is breaking any laws of physics right now, but the Lithium VB will give people another price-point to choose from.
I love doing location work with the quadras. It's nice to only have to put a few ounces on top of a lightstand, vs an entire monolight.
I hope someone with more info than I can find on Elinchrom or B&H site and can provide more data. From what I can find, Quadra Ranger AS is 400WS and weighs 3lbs WITHOUT BATTERY, and provides 150 400WS pops from a 3.24AH SLA battery that weighs another 3.5lbs. That works out to 60,000 total flash WS per charge, or 16.7 flash watt hours from a 40 watt hour battery, for an efficacy of 42% . Specified weight for pack and battery, without flash head is 7.5lbs. The head weighs 1.43lbs for a total system weight of 8.43 lbs.
Vagabond Mini Lithium weighs 3.5lbs INCUDING 8.8AH 14.8V Lithium battery that produces 130 watt hours. When connected to an AlienBees 1600 (640WS) it produces 510 pops per charge at the full 640WS . . . 326,400WS per charge, or 90.6 flash watt hours, for an efficacy of 69%. The AB1600 weighs 3.5lbs for a total system weight of 7lbs.
The math says the Ranger provides 16.7 watt hours of flash, at 400WS in an 8.43lb package and the Vagabond Mini Lithium/AB1600 combination provides 90.6 watt hours of flash, at 640WS, at a total system weight of 7lbs. That's 5.4 times the flash energy per charge, 1.6 times the flash energy per pop and 83% the weight.
But these aren't apples to apples system since the AB can operate from AC and the Ranger can't.
I am not comparing the advantages or disadvantages of the two systems . . . only answering the post this replies to.
Sep 04, 2010 at 07:40 PM
p.2 #19Vagabond Mini Lithium
adamdewilde wrote:
20something seconds for Zeus 2500 = c.100w/s per second = around 6 seconds for an Einstein/AB1600.Does it work that way?
I'm thinking that 6 seconds to full seems a bit long no?
though usually I'm shooting at around 100ws when I'm doing on location in a structure with no power, an around 400-600 when facing the setting sun. So 6 seconds isn't horrid... And I always have the VB if needed.
There are some non linear physics involved in operating AC powered flash units from current limited pure sine inverters. Here's how it breaks down:
The faster the AC power line recycle speed of a flash unit, the slower the recycle speed from an inverter. This is because units such as Zeus that have very fast WS/Second recycle on AC lines drop the inverter to much lower voltages than units with slower WS/Second AC cycle rates.
Vagabond Mini Lithium recycles an AB1600 (640WS) to its full 640WS in just under 3 seconds. The nice thing is that the cycle rate remains constant throughout the battery charge so it doesn't slow down as the battery is depleted.
Because Einstein has a bit faster powerline cycle rate (1.7 sec vs 2 sec) it takes slightly longer . . . . about 3.5 seconds . . . to 640WS from Vagabond Mini Lithium. Lowering the power setting of either unit correspondingly shortens the recycle times. So shooting in the 100 to 300WS range cycles quite rapidly. I don't have all the numbers yet, but shooting at 100WS should cycle in well under 1 sec.
We have tested the Mini with two AB1600s at full power and measured 6 seconds to recycle the aggregate 1280WS. For comparison, a 1250WS Zeus takes about 12 seconds. This is not unique to the Mini . . . the same relationship appears with Vagabond 150, Vagabond 2 and, I suspect, with Tronix Explorer or DYI inverters.
Chris Beaumont wrote
Csae wrote
Would you be comfortable giving a recycle time for a full Einstein pop ?I'm thinking that 6 seconds to full seems a bit long no?
though usually I'm shooting at around 100ws when I'm doing on location in a structure with no power, an around 400-600 when facing the setting sun. So 6 seconds isn't horrid... And I always have the VB if needed.
There are some non linear physics involved in operating AC powered flash units from current limited pure sine inverters. Here's how it breaks down:
The faster the AC power line recycle speed of a flash unit, the slower the recycle speed from an inverter. This is because units such as Zeus that have very fast WS/Second recycle on AC lines drop the inverter to much lower voltages than units with slower WS/Second AC cycle rates.
Vagabond Mini Lithium recycles an AB1600 (640WS) to its full 640WS in just under 3 seconds. The nice thing is that the cycle rate remains constant throughout the battery charge so it doesn't slow down as the battery is depleted.
Because Einstein has a bit faster powerline cycle rate (1.7 sec vs 2 sec) it takes slightly longer . . . . about 3.5 seconds . . . to 640WS from Vagabond Mini Lithium. Lowering the power setting of either unit correspondingly shortens the recycle times. So shooting in the 100 to 300WS range cycles quite rapidly. I don't have all the numbers yet, but shooting at 100WS should cycle in well under 1 sec.
We have tested the Mini with two AB1600s at full power and measured 6 seconds to recycle the aggregate 1280WS. For comparison, a 1250WS Zeus takes about 12 seconds. This is not unique to the Mini . . . the same relationship appears with Vagabond 150, Vagabond 2 and, I suspect, with Tronix Explorer or DYI inverters.
Sep 04, 2010 at 08:01 PM
p.2 #20Vagabond Mini Lithium
Thanks for the hard numbers Paul.
Looking forward to adding this to my VB2. The VB2's weight is still useful for lightstand ballast. There are times (beach shoots, etc.) when you don't need ballast and the mini-VB will be perfect
Looking forward to adding this to my VB2. The VB2's weight is still useful for lightstand ballast. There are times (beach shoots, etc.) when you don't need ballast and the mini-VB will be perfect
Sep 04, 2010 at 08:15 PM