rscheffler wrote:
....Chris - yes, the High Line was an abandoned elevated train track now converted into a park. It's great, IMO! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Line_(New_York_City) Halloween is a fun time to visit NYC. There's an evening parade in lower Manhattan and tons of people dress up for it. While it can be a hassle to get a parade-side spot (if you don't show up early), there are still plenty of chances to see people in costume at the entrance and exit areas.
....As for used M240 prices... I suspect they won't hold high for as long as used M9 prices did. There's also simply a lot more Leica gear on the market now and many of those who wanted full frame are still happy with the M9.
Your predicament is the same for any system once a camera model nears end of life. And it's a simple fact that digital cameras tend to depreciate quickly, though historically Leicas seem to have resisted this slightly better. We'll see if the M240 holds true, but my feeling is it should have softer resale value than historical Leica tendency. It will likely depend a lot on the successor's price point. Back when everyone was anticipating the 'M10' there was a lot of speculation the body would near $10K, then many were surprised when it was essentially the same price as the M9. Given the strength of the USD, and the state of the photographic market right now, I'd be surprised if the M240 successor is priced higher. But with Leica it can be difficult to know, since they seem to almost operate in a bit of a vacuum, better able to tap into a core customer base seemingly undeterred by premium pricing. Another factor will be whether the current M240 remains available and is moved 'down market' like the M-E version of the M9. That would also soften M240 resale. But this may take the rest of the year to play out and doesn't really help you now. And if you wait, it's just that much longer without the camera in order to potentially save another $500 or so. I guess it depends on how much resale means to you and if you will rely on it to potentially exit the system quickly if you find you don't like it.
Whatever replaces the M240, I'll probably want to get it. But as with the M9 and M240, I plan to wait it out at least a year to let them fix the bugs and take advantage of demo or used prices. Or, maybe I'll pick up a well priced used M-P.
Thank you Ron for taking the time to write all that out! Wonderful images, I had plans to shoot Halloween here in Chicago, but it was super cold/'artic air' and I bailed at the last moment. I need to but some of those photographer's gloves (moved here from Ca. so I'm still finding myself needing more cold weather clothing lol) But what a great idea for NY to repurpose and old elevated train line! Halloween in Manhattan, so fun
I wouldn't mind Ron loosing only $500; loosing >$1k I do mind. And I can easily see used M's going for $42-4500 after a 'M10' is released if not even less, and, this would also drive M9s down further too. Esp. given that you think used M's won't hold its value as long as the M9, and the fact of so much Leica gear available now. I'm pretty confused at this point, and am glad I need to sell my 28mm PC SA (todays goal of getting this one listed for sale), and wait for my 90mm from the cleaning job...it's going to let me time to think this over. I want one NOW, but funds and confusion aren't conducive to getting one I'm a tad shy too after my 5D which I bought new when released, lost so much value so quickly. (I know Leica's not as bad)
Thanks again Ron and Edward. Btw, that 'perfect' M does sound good
I see M240 prices stabilising around $4,800+ for the next year. Some will unload at $4,500 if the M240 monochrom makes for a compelling upgrade. But it'll stay that way until rumours of a M240 replacement. Once rumours start getting more solid, I think you'll see a lot of $4,500 M240 cameras, and by the time the M240 replacement is a real thing, you'll get pricing at $4,300 - $4,500. Assuming that the replacement and the updated mono are all priced at about the same as the current models are now (not including the discounts).
What I'm saying is.. You're safe for another 10-14 months if you buy one at $5,000 or so. Since I really don't see them going below $4,500 anytime soon.
As far as usability of the M240. The high iso is good (1600 is perfectly fine, higher if really needed), and the speed is good, the screen is fine for viewing sharpness. I really don't see much of a need to upgrade. I wouldn't want more MP and I don't need faster speeds, even at weddings. I think maybe a CLEAN CLEAN iso 3200 with a very good 6400 would be great. But I wouldn't want it at the cost of having Leica use Sony sensors. I'd have loved to upgrade to the M240-P if I could sell my M240 for higher then what I'm selling it for, and could upgrade for lower then what Leica is selling the 240-P for. Also there's a upgrade program coming out shortly, but it's just cosmetic, and doesn't include blackening of the buttons, which is one of the main reasons to upgrade in my opinion (after all since it's just a cosmetic upgrade they're offering).
The rumoured M240 Monochrom might be interesting, if the performance at high ISOs beats the current MM by 2+ stops. But obviously still maintains the details/sharpness and nice tones.
Go for a M240 while you can, it's a good deal. BTW, as of now, my spare Chrom camera is spoken for. So this is an unbiased opinion. And not in any way an advertisement.
Adam, I knew you'd sell it quickly given the fair price and condition, so Congrats! And man, another big Thank You for sharing your thoughts! That makes me feel much better about buying a 240, and I agree with you partly, the only upgrade aspects I'm truly interested in is higher ISO performance, and a better peak focus indicator. More megapixels = more difficulty getting crisp images to me at least.
But if you're right, and they stabilize at $4500 that makes me feel much better. So really, we're talking $5k to buy used here, or $5500 to buy at Leica store w. 1 yr warranty. So worst case is 500-1000 lost...WAY less than I lost on my Canon which is fantastic comparatively.
Very cool Werner!
Phil - very rich and beautiful use of the Nocti.
Gary - love the greens. Are you going back through your archive and reprocessing?
Great work on the previous page too!
M240 & 90AA
Chris - It’s a constant cycle. At some point you just have to set your price and jump in, then forget about the whole thing. One of my best friends is into stereos and years ago he was constantly grappling with the ‘what-ifs’ of when and what to buy... It was painful. It reminds me of something from a corporate keynote address, and is probably pretty common in that environment, but the guy’s point was that the worst decision is to not make a decision. At some point you have to commit. It might be right, it might be wrong, but at that time, it made sense and you make the best of it. It’s unfortunate that Leica gear is so pricy because it makes it that much more difficult to ignore cost of ownership. But at some point you have to. Just use it and enjoy.
I was browsing the Red Dot Forum site yesterday, revisiting some of their past Photokina write ups and took a closer look at the latest S (Typ007), which I kind of glossed over back in September. Probably because there's no chance I'll be buying one. But, re-reading its specs, I realized it's probably a good indicator of what's coming for the next M, at least in terms of general hardware features. One is the new Maestro II processor that has 2x the throughput of the current, and ancient version, in this M and past S cameras. 320MP/sec vs. 160MP/sec. It also supports 60fps live view with magnified scrolling, 4K video... The CMOS sensor is from CMOSIS, based on the architecture of the M's, but apparently built to a 90nm resolution, which is better than the current generation and should mean various improvements. They also mentioned something about improved on-chip RAW noise reduction, which implies better high ISO noise handling, and hopefully no banding, but makes me a bit nervous considering how the M's DNGs have fairly aggressive black point clipping applied...
Anyway, my takeaway is the next M will see continued refinement. It will be faster and probably closer in capability to the mainstream Asian brands. Maybe not a much higher fps rate, since that might not sit well with the decisive moment crowd, but very likely much faster internal processes to address the current complaints about live view and video related performance.
How well the next M does at spurring many to upgrade will likely depend on where Leica applies the most changes and the audience this most directly influences. IMO, the biggest such change would be to reduce camera thickness to more closely match the feel of film Ms. I'm not sure how feasible this would be, and for me, it's not a huge priority, but it seems to be a constant point of discussion over at LUF.
rscheffler wrote:
Gary - love the greens. Are you going back through your archive and reprocessing?
I got a bit sentimental and started looking back at some M8 pics.... Main reason is there is a nice M8.2 for sale locally for $1000. Very tempting. I see Joe is also selling his S2 on the B&S. Go for it!
Gary, you really captured the environment which is not easy in a sea of green, great job. I'm up in Portland Or sev. times a yr and I have family there. I take a hike every time I go and it's easy to get overwhelmed
Ron, love the lines you drew, esp. the first image. I mentioned to Vik that for me, I'd value better ISO range and better use of peak focusing. Thanks for listing all that, very interested to learn about this. Yes, all those improvements would be nice, esp. thiner/lighter, but not worth waiting. Like you said, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and except the cost, just like flying these days hehe Thanks for your continued contribution. I did get my one lens listed, but no time for photographs today. One step...
I'm probably alone in the fact I would like to see a really good color sensor 21/24 MPs great in low light with no video and no more automation than my MM has on it. In fact I would like to see even less. My thoughts would be why try and compete with the big two? All the bells and whistles just keep getting the photographer farther from the process and do nothing to help create better images.
Gary - I *try* to stay away from the temptations of the B&S. Besides, I think I've moved past CCD.
Chris - Thanks!
Allen - While I likely wouldn't be the customer of a barebones M, it would still be cool to see. If there is a company that has the guts to offer such a product, it's Leica. I have used video briefly but could live without it. Live view however, does have uses, like allowing me to keep shooting with longer glass during the visit to NYC I'm currently posting, after I knocked the RF out of whack. Now that I've had the M240 for nearly a year, I've pretty much fallen back to mostly RF shooting with it, but would be reluctant to give up live view. It will be interesting to see how the S(007) handles high ISO once it starts shipping as it should be a good indicator of next generation M performance.
M240 & 28 Cron
Seeing the contents of the van in the second image, at least I'm not that much of a packrat. Maybe with lenses...
Ron, many today can't live without all the stuff. I have shot for 3 decades completely manual (large format, 500 C/Ms med format and Canon F-1s) and though I had television production classes in college I am not a videographer and have no desire to be one. It really is a different aesthetic. If I were a videographer I would certainly buy a camera more appropriate for that type of work. I do think Leica trying to co,pete with the gadget heavy DSLRs they will come up short because they are a decade behind. Why not continue to make tools for photographers that are looking for something other than what is already being produced? A real choice as I feel the M Mono is.
To me a great camera would be a light tight box to hold light sensitive material that fits well in the hand and preferably a rangefinder. A great lens and an aperture to control the amount of light striking that light sensitive material. A shutter to control the time that light is allowed to strike that light sensitive material. A great sensor that is clean at high ISO's Meter optional but a good solid durable body. I will do all the thinking about exposure myself. That would be the ultimate for me. No automation, no FPS just a great camera at a reasonable price (about the same as the present day M-E wouldn't be out of line). And if Leica made such a beast I would by two and dump all of my Canon gear and swith completely over even for my commercial work. Probably going to do that anyway but it can't hurt to dream. No one believed Leica would make an MM and then they said it wouldn't sell.
Gary Clennan wrote:
I got a bit sentimental and started looking back at some M8 pics.... Main reason is there is a nice M8.2 for sale locally for $1000. Very tempting. I see Joe is also selling his S2 on the B&S. Go for it!
I second this Ron
Gary, I haven't used the M8 since it was current production. But for $1,000 it might be fun to kick around. I just wish the batteries were compatible. One of the reasons I don't have an MM. I hate carrying multiple batteries when I travel.
Adam, perhaps you won't have to wait too long for the MM240... S would be fun, just simply not doable. I'm also not keen on more huge equipment. Maybe I should start playing the lottery...
Allen - no real argument from me. Everyone will have their priorities. Leica at least seems to remain respectful of their heritage, so I doubt they will stray too far. Considering how much better they're doing now than even a short time ago, it's conceivable they could focus more resources on development of cameras that better address specific customer needs and requests. Already having the MM offers hope for more cameras like the M60 possibly coming to standard production.
Very nice Gary. Love those kinds of neighbourhoods and the Summitar sure looks great stopped down.
Main reason is there is a nice M8.2 for sale locally for $1000. Very tempting. I see Joe is also selling his S2 on the B&S. Go for it!
