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Archive 2009Canon EOS 7D Master thread
p.57 #1Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Brit-007 wrote:
I would really like to see whether they are going to be going up to 16 bit to compete with Medium format or stick to 14 bit.
I'll buy the first affordable DSLR with 16bit RAW.
I would really like to see whether they are going to be going up to 16 bit to compete with Medium format or stick to 14 bit.
I'll buy the first affordable DSLR with 16bit RAW.
Sep 17, 2009 at 12:12 PM
p.57 #2Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Brit-007 wrote:
Interesting times to come.
I certainly agree and, like you, I'm wondering when the 1D series will start going after the medium-format market? Related to that, I'm also wondering when we may start to see limitations of the current L-series glass relative to sensor size and pixel resolution?
I've pre-ordered the 7D and, looking down the road, I am hoping for a reasonably affordable FF successor to the 5Dmk2 in a year or possibly less. Much will depend on how Canon positions the next 1D.
Edited on Sep 17, 2009 at 12:15 PM · View previous versions
Interesting times to come.
I certainly agree and, like you, I'm wondering when the 1D series will start going after the medium-format market? Related to that, I'm also wondering when we may start to see limitations of the current L-series glass relative to sensor size and pixel resolution?
I've pre-ordered the 7D and, looking down the road, I am hoping for a reasonably affordable FF successor to the 5Dmk2 in a year or possibly less. Much will depend on how Canon positions the next 1D.
Edited on Sep 17, 2009 at 12:15 PM · View previous versions
Sep 17, 2009 at 12:13 PM
p.57 #3Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Brit-007:
My real concern is that people are comparing the 7D with a 5D
Why would that be a concern? 5D was always a reference against which the (crop) DSLR cameras were measured and never reached that level of IQ (till 5D mk II came out).
My real concern is that people are comparing the 7D with a 5D
Why would that be a concern? 5D was always a reference against which the (crop) DSLR cameras were measured and never reached that level of IQ (till 5D mk II came out).
Sep 17, 2009 at 12:14 PM
p.57 #4Canon EOS 7D Master thread
mfurman Whote:
Why would that be a concern? 5D was always a reference against which the (crop) DSLR cameras were measured and never reached that level of IQ (till 5D mk II came out).
I know that the full frame is the measurement from, but I felt most people were making a comparrison against the 5D instead of what I beleive should be against the 1D. The best image should be with full frame others should be close if you are earning money from them.
I got the impression that the comparrison was trying to be made for the features where really they are for 2 different markets. Just my 2c.
Why would that be a concern? 5D was always a reference against which the (crop) DSLR cameras were measured and never reached that level of IQ (till 5D mk II came out).
I know that the full frame is the measurement from, but I felt most people were making a comparrison against the 5D instead of what I beleive should be against the 1D. The best image should be with full frame others should be close if you are earning money from them.
I got the impression that the comparrison was trying to be made for the features where really they are for 2 different markets. Just my 2c.
Sep 17, 2009 at 12:55 PM
p.57 #5Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Brit-007:
The best image should be with full frame
That is exactly what we have been always hearing - "you need to have FF sensor for high S/N". The point, I have been trying to make is that we may be reaching FF sensor quality in a 1.6 crop camera. I am not certain about it but if it is the case, the myth of 5D (that I also subscribed to) may end. As I said, I am not stating that - just asking questions.
The best image should be with full frame
That is exactly what we have been always hearing - "you need to have FF sensor for high S/N". The point, I have been trying to make is that we may be reaching FF sensor quality in a 1.6 crop camera. I am not certain about it but if it is the case, the myth of 5D (that I also subscribed to) may end. As I said, I am not stating that - just asking questions.
Sep 17, 2009 at 01:11 PM
p.57 #6Canon EOS 7D Master thread
mfurman wrote:
The best image should be with full frameThat is exactly what we have been always hearing - "you need to have FF sensor for high S/N". The point, I have been trying to make is that we may be reaching FF sensor quality in a 1.6 crop camera. I am not certain about it but if it is the case, the myth of 5D (that I also subscribed to) may end. As I said, I am not stating that - just asking questions.
I believe the 7D is a step up from previous Canon crop sensor cameras (and I'm certainly not complaining about its quality). I've pre-ordered one, and wish I had it in my hands now.
Physics cannot be changed, however, so I don't believe you'll ever see the same S/N ratio between a crop camera and a FF camera--given the same photosite design. And larger pixels using the same photosite design will always have a better S/N ratio. Right? In some ways, we're comparing apples to oranges here with the 7D and the 5D or 5Dmk2.
Much of this IQ analysis also depends on the desired "end-state," i.e. viewing distance and display medium. This drives how we approach the "making" of photographic images. For example, how large of a print will be made? Where will it be viewed from? Is it for web publishing only? For a book? Etc., etc. We make decisions on how to shoot based on the circumstances (light, desired DOF, ISO, etc.).
Simply put, I want a crop camera for its throughput (and its focal-length multiplier coefficient) in order to cover action, sports and wildlife photography. I want a FF camera for portraits, landscapes, and the best possible image quality.
Two different purposes, two different cameras. The HD video is a throw-in bonus for both.
Earlier quote
Brit-007:The best image should be with full frame
I believe the 7D is a step up from previous Canon crop sensor cameras (and I'm certainly not complaining about its quality). I've pre-ordered one, and wish I had it in my hands now.
Physics cannot be changed, however, so I don't believe you'll ever see the same S/N ratio between a crop camera and a FF camera--given the same photosite design. And larger pixels using the same photosite design will always have a better S/N ratio. Right? In some ways, we're comparing apples to oranges here with the 7D and the 5D or 5Dmk2.
Much of this IQ analysis also depends on the desired "end-state," i.e. viewing distance and display medium. This drives how we approach the "making" of photographic images. For example, how large of a print will be made? Where will it be viewed from? Is it for web publishing only? For a book? Etc., etc. We make decisions on how to shoot based on the circumstances (light, desired DOF, ISO, etc.).
Simply put, I want a crop camera for its throughput (and its focal-length multiplier coefficient) in order to cover action, sports and wildlife photography. I want a FF camera for portraits, landscapes, and the best possible image quality.
Two different purposes, two different cameras. The HD video is a throw-in bonus for both.
Sep 17, 2009 at 01:19 PM
p.57 #7Canon EOS 7D Master thread
cameron12x:
I want a FF camera for landscapes and the best possible image quality.
I really do not want to bore everyone to death with these questions but please tell me what the advantage of using 5D (mkI) over 7D (if one can use equivalent lenses and the image quality is similar) may be.
We are not talking about the best FF camera - we are only looking at 5D (mkI) and 7D.
I want a FF camera for landscapes and the best possible image quality.
I really do not want to bore everyone to death with these questions but please tell me what the advantage of using 5D (mkI) over 7D (if one can use equivalent lenses and the image quality is similar) may be.
We are not talking about the best FF camera - we are only looking at 5D (mkI) and 7D.
Sep 17, 2009 at 01:33 PM
p.57 #8Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Brit-007 wrote:
...I think it is obvious that Canon has now completed their line up.
I was thinking that at first too, but now I'm not so sure.
I see two places for Canon to add to their line. A 3D would be an interesting concept. Small body size, best of 5D features, 1 series AF, FF, etc. Also, I would not be surprised if Canon ever went over the top and made a series of much higher end cameras to compete with the medium format Hasselblads or some of Leica's new offerings like the S2. There is room in their line for these cameras and, though limited, there is demand too.
That said, I don't see either of these coming out next week.
...I think it is obvious that Canon has now completed their line up.
I was thinking that at first too, but now I'm not so sure.
I see two places for Canon to add to their line. A 3D would be an interesting concept. Small body size, best of 5D features, 1 series AF, FF, etc. Also, I would not be surprised if Canon ever went over the top and made a series of much higher end cameras to compete with the medium format Hasselblads or some of Leica's new offerings like the S2. There is room in their line for these cameras and, though limited, there is demand too.
That said, I don't see either of these coming out next week.
Sep 17, 2009 at 01:41 PM
p.57 #9Canon EOS 7D Master thread
globalkiwi wrote:
Wow... that's 3 minutes of my life I'm not getting back. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that video will actually sell the camera?!
You know, you could've shut it off a few seconds into the clip like I did if it was so uncompelling
Or maybe it's like a traffic accident--you can't take your eyes off it?
But I agree that it's poor stuff. The wedding video posted earlier is much better.
Wow... that's 3 minutes of my life I'm not getting back. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that video will actually sell the camera?!
You know, you could've shut it off a few seconds into the clip like I did if it was so uncompelling
Or maybe it's like a traffic accident--you can't take your eyes off it?But I agree that it's poor stuff. The wedding video posted earlier is much better.
Sep 17, 2009 at 01:47 PM
p.57 #10Canon EOS 7D Master thread
sskoutas wrote:
I was thinking that at first too, but now I'm not so sure.
I see two places for Canon to add to their line. A 3D would be an interesting concept. Small body size, best of 5D features, 1 series AF, FF, etc. Also, I would not be surprised if Canon ever went over the top and made a series of much higher end cameras to compete with the medium format Hasselblads or some of Leica's new offerings like the S2. There is room in their line for these cameras and, though limited, there is demand too.
That said, I don't see...Show more →
Given the likely upcoming Nikon D700x, and the loss of marketshares against Nikon and (mostly) Sony, Canon would be crazy to not develop a 3D line soon! Since the 7D was developped after asking 5000 photographers what they needed (they could have just bought a D300), I have no doubt many asked for a fast light high resolution full frame camera as well
Brit-007 wrote
...I think it is obvious that Canon has now completed their line up.I see two places for Canon to add to their line. A 3D would be an interesting concept. Small body size, best of 5D features, 1 series AF, FF, etc. Also, I would not be surprised if Canon ever went over the top and made a series of much higher end cameras to compete with the medium format Hasselblads or some of Leica's new offerings like the S2. There is room in their line for these cameras and, though limited, there is demand too.
That said, I don't see...Show more →
Given the likely upcoming Nikon D700x, and the loss of marketshares against Nikon and (mostly) Sony, Canon would be crazy to not develop a 3D line soon! Since the 7D was developped after asking 5000 photographers what they needed (they could have just bought a D300), I have no doubt many asked for a fast light high resolution full frame camera as well
Sep 17, 2009 at 01:51 PM
p.57 #11Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Brit-007 wrote:
I think it is obvious that Canon has now completed their line up.
Please don't give them any ideas. They've had a rough time with complacency lately, so let's keep spurring them on instead of letting them sit on their laurels!
I think the 7D, far from completing the lineup, is actually the strongest indication that we will finally see an "affordable" full frame with better-than-xxD features, a.k.a. the 3D. Before this it was all speculation and wishful thinking based on nothing tangible in the Canon lineup. Now Canon have shown they are willing to trickle down features traditionally considered pro level features into cameras other than the 1-series, which they've been very reluctant to do in the past. 3D might finally be coming.
I think it is obvious that Canon has now completed their line up.
Please don't give them any ideas. They've had a rough time with complacency lately, so let's keep spurring them on instead of letting them sit on their laurels!
I think the 7D, far from completing the lineup, is actually the strongest indication that we will finally see an "affordable" full frame with better-than-xxD features, a.k.a. the 3D. Before this it was all speculation and wishful thinking based on nothing tangible in the Canon lineup. Now Canon have shown they are willing to trickle down features traditionally considered pro level features into cameras other than the 1-series, which they've been very reluctant to do in the past. 3D might finally be coming.
Sep 17, 2009 at 01:52 PM
p.57 #12Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Yohan Pamudji wrote:
Please don't give them any ideas. They've had a rough time with complacency lately, so let's keep spurring them on instead of letting them sit on their laurels!
I think the 7D, far from completing the lineup, is actually the strongest indication that we will finally see an "affordable" full frame with better-than-xxD features, a.k.a. the 3D. Before this it was all speculation and wishful thinking based on nothing tangible in the Canon lineup. Now Canon have shown they are willing to trickle down features traditionally considered pro level features into cameras other than the 1-series, which they've been very...Show more →
+1^19 Amen!
mfurman wrote:
I want a FF camera for landscapes and the best possible image quality.I really do not want to bore everyone to death with these questions but please tell me what the advantage of using 5D (mkI) over 7D (if one can use equivalent lenses and the image quality is similar) may be.
We are not talking about the best FF camera - we are only looking at 5D (mkI) and 7D.
I don't think we can realistically compare the 5D and the 7D based on camera imaging technology alone. One uses sensor and image processing technology which is four years old?
In addition, the 5D can only use L-series glass for the highest quality wide-angle (landscape) shots, whereas the 7D must use EF-S class lenses for the same effective focal lengths.
I have the 10-22mm EF-S lens, but I don't know if it is as sharp as my 17-40mm L-series lens. I would need to reseach the IQ differences between legacy L-series wide-angle glass versus the new EF-S lenses which are available on the wide-end.
An affordable FF 3D or a successor to the 5Dmk2 will likely be the longer-term landscape photography solution for me.
Brit-007 wrote
I think it is obvious that Canon has now completed their line up.I think the 7D, far from completing the lineup, is actually the strongest indication that we will finally see an "affordable" full frame with better-than-xxD features, a.k.a. the 3D. Before this it was all speculation and wishful thinking based on nothing tangible in the Canon lineup. Now Canon have shown they are willing to trickle down features traditionally considered pro level features into cameras other than the 1-series, which they've been very...Show more →
+1^19 Amen!
mfurman wrote:
Earlier quote
cameron12x:I want a FF camera for landscapes and the best possible image quality.
We are not talking about the best FF camera - we are only looking at 5D (mkI) and 7D.
I don't think we can realistically compare the 5D and the 7D based on camera imaging technology alone. One uses sensor and image processing technology which is four years old?
In addition, the 5D can only use L-series glass for the highest quality wide-angle (landscape) shots, whereas the 7D must use EF-S class lenses for the same effective focal lengths.
I have the 10-22mm EF-S lens, but I don't know if it is as sharp as my 17-40mm L-series lens. I would need to reseach the IQ differences between legacy L-series wide-angle glass versus the new EF-S lenses which are available on the wide-end.
An affordable FF 3D or a successor to the 5Dmk2 will likely be the longer-term landscape photography solution for me.
Sep 17, 2009 at 01:54 PM
p.57 #13Canon EOS 7D Master thread
mfurman wrote:
The best image should be with full frameThat is exactly what we have been always hearing - "you need to have FF sensor for high S/N". The point, I have been trying to make is that we may be reaching FF sensor quality in a 1.6 crop camera.
We are reaching it but we're stil not there yet .
With current advances in technology, Canon could maybe produce a 10-12mp sensor with the S/N quality of the 5D.
Instead, though, they chose to cram more megapixels and keep ISO on the traditional 1.6x levels.
Obviously, they believe that the 7D will sell better with more megapixels/same ISO rather than same megapixels/better ISO.
Thus, four years after the 5D, Canon still haven't made a 1.6x camera with the same ISO as the 5D.
No wonder many people believe that only FF gives the best image quality.
Earlier quote
Brit-007:The best image should be with full frame
We are reaching it but we're stil not there yet
. With current advances in technology, Canon could maybe produce a 10-12mp sensor with the S/N quality of the 5D.
Instead, though, they chose to cram more megapixels and keep ISO on the traditional 1.6x levels.
Obviously, they believe that the 7D will sell better with more megapixels/same ISO rather than same megapixels/better ISO.
Thus, four years after the 5D, Canon still haven't made a 1.6x camera with the same ISO as the 5D.
No wonder many people believe that only FF gives the best image quality.
Sep 17, 2009 at 05:19 PM
p.57 #14Canon EOS 7D Master thread
"Instead, though, they chose to cram more megapixels and keep ISO on the traditional 1.6x levels"
So, you've decided to ignore all the test images comparing the 50D and 7D?
So, you've decided to ignore all the test images comparing the 50D and 7D?
Sep 17, 2009 at 05:33 PM
p.57 #15Canon EOS 7D Master thread
JoeLeBlanc wrote:
"Instead, though, they chose to cram more megapixels and keep ISO on the traditional 1.6x levels"
So, you've decided to ignore all the test images comparing the 50D and 7D?
I agree there. Too many images online showing the 7D does quite well at high ISO and the AF is possibly better then the 40/50D. Not just the next xxD body by any means and that is not even mentioning the video for those that like flicks.
"Instead, though, they chose to cram more megapixels and keep ISO on the traditional 1.6x levels"
So, you've decided to ignore all the test images comparing the 50D and 7D?
I agree there. Too many images online showing the 7D does quite well at high ISO and the AF is possibly better then the 40/50D. Not just the next xxD body by any means and that is not even mentioning the video for those that like flicks.
Sep 17, 2009 at 05:40 PM
p.57 #16Canon EOS 7D Master thread
JoeLeBlanc wrote:
"Instead, though, they chose to cram more megapixels and keep ISO on the traditional 1.6x levels"
So, you've decided to ignore all the test images comparing the 50D and 7D?
Initial samples are showing that the 7D has about the same ISO/noise as the 40D.
About the same but not better. That's the key.
Canon have not had a 1.6x camera with better ISO than the 20D.
And since the 20D, resolution has grown 2x times.
It's obvious what their priorities are.
"Instead, though, they chose to cram more megapixels and keep ISO on the traditional 1.6x levels"
So, you've decided to ignore all the test images comparing the 50D and 7D?
Initial samples are showing that the 7D has about the same ISO/noise as the 40D.
About the same but not better. That's the key.
Canon have not had a 1.6x camera with better ISO than the 20D.
And since the 20D, resolution has grown 2x times.
It's obvious what their priorities are.
Sep 17, 2009 at 05:46 PM
p.57 #17Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Yohan Pamudji wrote:
You know, you could've shut it off a few seconds into the clip like I did if it was so uncompelling Or maybe it's like a traffic accident--you can't take your eyes off it?
But I agree that it's poor stuff. The wedding video posted earlier is much better.
Actually I nearly did (shut it down after a few seconds) but I thought that maybe there would be something more to it. Consensus seems to be that the video is not indicative of anything other than the Japanese corporate obsession with cheerleaders ...
globalkiwi wrote
Wow... that's 3 minutes of my life I'm not getting back. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that video will actually sell the camera?! Or maybe it's like a traffic accident--you can't take your eyes off it?But I agree that it's poor stuff. The wedding video posted earlier is much better.
Actually I nearly did (shut it down after a few seconds) but I thought that maybe there would be something more to it. Consensus seems to be that the video is not indicative of anything other than the Japanese corporate obsession with cheerleaders ...
Sep 17, 2009 at 05:51 PM
p.57 #18Canon EOS 7D Master thread
jorkata wrote:
Thus, four years after the 5D, Canon still haven't made a 1.6x camera with the same ISO as the 5D.
I'm not sure how one can say that for sure about a camera that isn't even available to the general public yet.
Seems like I remember similar comments about image quality when the 5D was introduced, now it's the holy grail of IQ?
Thus, four years after the 5D, Canon still haven't made a 1.6x camera with the same ISO as the 5D.
I'm not sure how one can say that for sure about a camera that isn't even available to the general public yet.
Seems like I remember similar comments about image quality when the 5D was introduced, now it's the holy grail of IQ?
Sep 17, 2009 at 05:52 PM
p.57 #19Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Not that it matters, people talk about the "magical" quality of the 5D but the thing is, being shown a whole bunch of images taken with various APS-C and 5D, I don't think they'd be able to tell the difference.
Sep 17, 2009 at 05:59 PM
p.57 #20Canon EOS 7D Master thread
rd4tile wrote:
Seems like I remember similar comments about image quality when the 5D was introduced, now it's the holy grail of IQ?
The 5D is the holy grail of IQ .
No other camera has received so much praise for its IQ as the 5D - not even the 5DII and the 1DsIII.
And here's a thought, btw:
The 5D had 'only' 12mp and yet it was universally liked.
But 12mp on 1.6x crop is not enoght - they just had to go 18mp .
Seems like I remember similar comments about image quality when the 5D was introduced, now it's the holy grail of IQ?
The 5D is the holy grail of IQ
. No other camera has received so much praise for its IQ as the 5D - not even the 5DII and the 1DsIII.
And here's a thought, btw:
The 5D had 'only' 12mp and yet it was universally liked.
But 12mp on 1.6x crop is not enoght - they just had to go 18mp
. Sep 17, 2009 at 06:01 PM