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Archive 2009Official 7D Thread
p.15 #1Official 7D Thread
Pixel Perfect wrote:
VERY interesting...and equally as awesome.Man they now have to release a wireless macro flash to replace MT-24EX.
There's one from Metz that's wireless, relatively cheap and quite good. I use it for my MP-E.
Antje
M Vers wrote
"New Flash and Wireless Flash Control. The 7D is the first Canon EOS to come with an Integrated Speedlite Transmitter. The system allows to control up to three groups of four flashes each. With 15mm the built-in flash features wider flash coverage than previous models. Its guide number is 12/39 (ISO 100, in meters/feet)."VERY interesting...and equally as awesome.
There's one from Metz that's wireless, relatively cheap and quite good. I use it for my MP-E.
Antje
Sep 01, 2009 at 01:16 PM
p.15 #2Official 7D Thread
cogitech wrote:
Oversight? Blatant crippling? Do you not realize you are in the vast minority? A majority of those who choose to go with the 7D will never use MF, and if they do not enough to need an additional screen.You could say the same thing for the 40D, but they had the insight to offer the Ef-S screen for that camera. It would cost absolutely nothing for them to have offered an S-type screen for this camera, but instead they issue a press release explicitly stating that they will not offer replacement screens, because they have a fancy new electronic grid-lines and AF-points overlay. Typical Canon retardation.
actually I commend Canon on this move. Canon will satisfy way more photogs with the ability to turn the gridlines on and off on the camera than by offering a tiny tiny minority of users the option to use MF with a special screen. I'm sorry- but by choosing to MF you're essentially making a series of personal compromises and Canon obviously should not have to cater to your eccentric needs. I really don't get your negativity- Canon places an innovative AF system in this camera, which shouldn't matter at all to you because you like manual focus. Therefore you shouldn't complain because you're clearly not the target market. Geez- retardation? Certainly not how I would put it. I'm sure there's a cam out there for you- just not this one, so hush up already with the screen issue. Nobody is making you buy it.
M Vers wrote
cogitech wrote
How difficult would it have been to make replaceable screens and then throw the overlays onto whatever screen was there? To offer a camera of this class with no precision focusing screen option is either a huge oversight or a blatant crippling of the camera.actually I commend Canon on this move. Canon will satisfy way more photogs with the ability to turn the gridlines on and off on the camera than by offering a tiny tiny minority of users the option to use MF with a special screen. I'm sorry- but by choosing to MF you're essentially making a series of personal compromises and Canon obviously should not have to cater to your eccentric needs. I really don't get your negativity- Canon places an innovative AF system in this camera, which shouldn't matter at all to you because you like manual focus. Therefore you shouldn't complain because you're clearly not the target market. Geez- retardation? Certainly not how I would put it. I'm sure there's a cam out there for you- just not this one, so hush up already with the screen issue. Nobody is making you buy it.
Sep 01, 2009 at 01:17 PM
p.15 #3Official 7D Thread
If the actual performance can hold up to the amazing spec sheet the 7D is going to be one hell of a camera! Thank you Canon! This will be the perfect pair for my 5D2. I guess all the people who jump ship to Nikon will be re-thinking their move
. I knew Canon would pull it together eventually. Let's just hope they worked the bugs out.
. I knew Canon would pull it together eventually. Let's just hope they worked the bugs out.Sep 01, 2009 at 01:21 PM
p.15 #4Official 7D Thread
monochrome wrote:
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I'll believe this when I see it.Wasn't this a bit of the tag line when they introduce the 50D, with less MP than the 7D?
Well, there is less noise than Digic III, because that chip didn't apply nearly as much noise reduction. Unfortunately, there is also less sharpness and more smearing of fine detail at higher ISO settings too: you gotta pick your poison.
I'll still need to see RAW samples with no NR applied to really judge the sensor quality. The Imaging Resource JPEG samples seem to show similar noise levels to the 50D, but improved pixel-level sharpness. This could mean less NR is needed, implying that the native sensor performance is better, despite the higher pixel count.
michael49 wrote
"DIGIC 4 removes the highly noticeable colour noise as well as reducing luminance noise without loss in detail, allowing for very clean high ISO images. Even at ISO 6400 noise levels are similar to those of ISO 1600 from DIGIC III. ...."Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I'll believe this when I see it.
Well, there is less noise than Digic III, because that chip didn't apply nearly as much noise reduction. Unfortunately, there is also less sharpness and more smearing of fine detail at higher ISO settings too: you gotta pick your poison.
I'll still need to see RAW samples with no NR applied to really judge the sensor quality. The Imaging Resource JPEG samples seem to show similar noise levels to the 50D, but improved pixel-level sharpness. This could mean less NR is needed, implying that the native sensor performance is better, despite the higher pixel count.
Sep 01, 2009 at 01:49 PM
p.15 #5Official 7D Thread
Looks like a decent ALMOST catch up to Nikon at the same price point. I like the idea of a serious crop body but agree the 5D2 should have been further along then it's positioned.
The bit that really annoys me is that the features people seem to like are firmware only most likely... the auto reposition of the focus points between portrait & landscape could be done on a 20D as it knows which way it's been held... as well as the customisation of the buttons (although seems STILL no MLU directly read robs review) probably the same for the flash controller (which to me is POSSIBLY the best part of this body).... But I guess the aim is to sell widgets right :-/
Will see how more reviews go... plus the usual 4 months before they have units.... Might be an upgrade for me with these features and price point.
Did anyone confirm that the flash controls would let manual adjustments?? I see the ratios e.t.c. but I HOPE they didn't cripple that by forcing eTTL.
The bit that really annoys me is that the features people seem to like are firmware only most likely... the auto reposition of the focus points between portrait & landscape could be done on a 20D as it knows which way it's been held... as well as the customisation of the buttons (although seems STILL no MLU directly read robs review) probably the same for the flash controller (which to me is POSSIBLY the best part of this body).... But I guess the aim is to sell widgets right :-/
Will see how more reviews go... plus the usual 4 months before they have units.... Might be an upgrade for me with these features and price point.
Did anyone confirm that the flash controls would let manual adjustments?? I see the ratios e.t.c. but I HOPE they didn't cripple that by forcing eTTL.
Sep 01, 2009 at 01:57 PM
p.15 #6Official 7D Thread
orangefirefish wrote:
Oversight? Blatant crippling? Do you not realize you are in the vast minority? A majority of those who choose to go with the 7D will never use MF, and if they do not enough to need an additional screen.You could say the same thing for the 40D, but they had the insight to offer the Ef-S screen for that camera. It would cost absolutely nothing for them to have offered an S-type screen for this camera, but instead they issue a press release explicitly stating that they will not offer replacement screens, because they have a fancy new electronic grid-lines and AF-points overlay. Typical Canon retardation.actually I commend Canon on this move. Canon will satisfy way more photogs with the ability to turn the gridlines on and off on the camera than by offering a tiny tiny minority of users the option to use MF with a special screen. I'm sorry- but by choosing to MF you're essentially making a series of personal compromises and Canon obviously should not have to cater to your eccentric needs. I really don't get your negativity- Canon places an innovative AF system in this camera, which shouldn't matter at all to you because you like manual focus. Therefore you...Show more →
The point is, they could have offered both this new overlay technology and replaceable screens and it would have cost them next to nothing at all to do so. They think the electronic overlay with a grid is a replacement for all the various focusing screens, and that is a big, stupid mistake. I think there are a lot of higher-end users (the potential market for a camera of this caliber) who will see a lack of focusing screen options as a serious blunder. Commend them all you want, but there are many of us who won't. More than you think.
cogitech wrote
M Vers wrote
cogitech wrote
How difficult would it have been to make replaceable screens and then throw the overlays onto whatever screen was there? To offer a camera of this class with no precision focusing screen option is either a huge oversight or a blatant crippling of the camera.The point is, they could have offered both this new overlay technology and replaceable screens and it would have cost them next to nothing at all to do so. They think the electronic overlay with a grid is a replacement for all the various focusing screens, and that is a big, stupid mistake. I think there are a lot of higher-end users (the potential market for a camera of this caliber) who will see a lack of focusing screen options as a serious blunder. Commend them all you want, but there are many of us who won't. More than you think.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:00 PM
p.15 #7Official 7D Thread
braddo_99 wrote:
I have the S screen on my 40D and for me it was a waste of money. The VF is just too small and the screen isn't appreciably better for MF. The bigger VF may go a long way all by itself. No doubt a high precision option could be even better.
Your eyes must not be up to the task, because the Ef-S screen in my 40D (now sold) made a huge difference in MF accuracy, just as the Ee-S does in my 5D.
I have the S screen on my 40D and for me it was a waste of money. The VF is just too small and the screen isn't appreciably better for MF. The bigger VF may go a long way all by itself. No doubt a high precision option could be even better.
Your eyes must not be up to the task, because the Ef-S screen in my 40D (now sold) made a huge difference in MF accuracy, just as the Ee-S does in my 5D.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:04 PM
p.15 #8Official 7D Thread
Preferring to Manual focus, a function they still build into most of their modern lenses as a full time feature is an eccentric practice? Okay 
I'm personally hoping that they've put a precision screen in and the LCD overlay helps brighten the VF when slower lenses are used. I don't see how Canon could have overlooked precision manual focusing when paying so much attention to that big viewfinder. If they did, I'll probably end up getting the 5D instead.
I'm personally hoping that they've put a precision screen in and the LCD overlay helps brighten the VF when slower lenses are used. I don't see how Canon could have overlooked precision manual focusing when paying so much attention to that big viewfinder. If they did, I'll probably end up getting the 5D instead.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:04 PM
p.15 #9Official 7D Thread
bluetsunami wrote:
Preferring to Manual focus, a function they still build into most of their modern lenses as a full time feature is an eccentric practice? Okay
I'm personally hoping that they've put a precision screen in and the LCD overlay helps brighten the screen.
That's right. Orangefirefish thinks I'm eccentric for using a feature built in to every modern lens Canon makes, and for complaining that they have removed an essential feature from a camera in a class that has always included such feature. Since they have replaced it with some silly new flashy tech, I'm an idiot for complaining.
You're gonna love the 5D
Preferring to Manual focus, a function they still build into most of their modern lenses as a full time feature is an eccentric practice? Okay
I'm personally hoping that they've put a precision screen in and the LCD overlay helps brighten the screen.
That's right. Orangefirefish thinks I'm eccentric for using a feature built in to every modern lens Canon makes, and for complaining that they have removed an essential feature from a camera in a class that has always included such feature. Since they have replaced it with some silly new flashy tech, I'm an idiot for complaining.
You're gonna love the 5D
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:09 PM
p.15 #10Official 7D Thread
cogitech wrote:
No. I know for a fact that it is a standard "stock" focusing screen with electronic grid-line and AF-point overlays that will not assist with precision manual focusing like an S-type focusing screen does. No amount of electronic wizardry will change that, and it is completely illogical (read "stupid") for them to leave this option out of a camera of this caliber.
Live View at 10X magnification will certainly allow you to do precision manual focusing...
No. I know for a fact that it is a standard "stock" focusing screen with electronic grid-line and AF-point overlays that will not assist with precision manual focusing like an S-type focusing screen does. No amount of electronic wizardry will change that, and it is completely illogical (read "stupid") for them to leave this option out of a camera of this caliber.
Live View at 10X magnification will certainly allow you to do precision manual focusing...
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:11 PM
p.15 #11Official 7D Thread
cogitech wrote:
More than you think.
But not as many as you think, I reckon.
This camera has "bird photographer" written all over it, and I for one feel like they designed the bugger especially for me.
I have zero interest in manual focus, and I'm willing to be that - among its probable intended constituency - that'll be the norm.
The number of folk likely to buy a new camera with a brand new and (on the face of it) significantly enhanced AF system so that they can then MF with it, will be tiny I'm sure, and I suspect that MFers were just not in Canon's thinking here.
Rightly so, I'd say...
that they have removed an essential feature from a camera in a class that has always included such feature.
But they haven't! You'll still be able to MF, and you're assuming that doing so might be more difficult with the 7D.
And - lets face it - MF isn't a "feature" so much as a legacy left-over.
Edited on Sep 01, 2009 at 02:16 PM · View previous versions
More than you think.
But not as many as you think, I reckon.
This camera has "bird photographer" written all over it, and I for one feel like they designed the bugger especially for me.
I have zero interest in manual focus, and I'm willing to be that - among its probable intended constituency - that'll be the norm.
The number of folk likely to buy a new camera with a brand new and (on the face of it) significantly enhanced AF system so that they can then MF with it, will be tiny I'm sure, and I suspect that MFers were just not in Canon's thinking here.
Rightly so, I'd say...
that they have removed an essential feature from a camera in a class that has always included such feature.
But they haven't! You'll still be able to MF, and you're assuming that doing so might be more difficult with the 7D.
And - lets face it - MF isn't a "feature" so much as a legacy left-over.
Edited on Sep 01, 2009 at 02:16 PM · View previous versions
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:14 PM
p.15 #12Official 7D Thread
There seems to be a lot of anguish over the lack of interchangable focus screens. I'm sure some entrepreneurial 3rd party will adress this issue - even if it means sending the camera off somewhere for a few days.
Not a big deal, I'm sure.
Not a big deal, I'm sure.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:16 PM
p.15 #13Official 7D Thread
You know, if they removed the direct print button, someone would complain.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:16 PM
p.15 #14Official 7D Thread
thedigitalbean wrote:
One possible explanation might be because they are JPGs straight out of camera and Canon's JPG engine really does suck.
I believe he's converted them in DPP.
It means that with downsampling you can get decent prints at high ISOs and at low ISOs you can get lots of detail.
Remember there's M-RAW in the 7D: c. 10 mp files, and linear dimensions identical to those of 40D RAW files.
One possible explanation might be because they are JPGs straight out of camera and Canon's JPG engine really does suck.
I believe he's converted them in DPP.
It means that with downsampling you can get decent prints at high ISOs and at low ISOs you can get lots of detail.
Remember there's M-RAW in the 7D: c. 10 mp files, and linear dimensions identical to those of 40D RAW files.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:19 PM
p.15 #15Official 7D Thread
ts232 wrote:
Live View at 10X magnification will certainly allow you to do precision manual focusing...
For macro and maybe landscape. Everything else, not a chance.
Try shooting this stuff with 10x Live View:
(85/1.2 SSC Aspherical on 5D, all wide open)
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7673.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7692.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7698.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7705.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7722.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7727.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7731.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7738.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7746.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7750.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7754.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7776.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7784.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7785.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7791.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7793.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7799.jpg
With the 7D focusing screen, this will not be possible. With a 5D, 40D or 1D, it is. Simple as that.
cogitech wrote
No. I know for a fact that it is a standard "stock" focusing screen with electronic grid-line and AF-point overlays that will not assist with precision manual focusing like an S-type focusing screen does. No amount of electronic wizardry will change that, and it is completely illogical (read "stupid") for them to leave this option out of a camera of this caliber.For macro and maybe landscape. Everything else, not a chance.
Try shooting this stuff with 10x Live View:
(85/1.2 SSC Aspherical on 5D, all wide open)
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7673.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7692.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7698.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7705.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7722.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7727.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7731.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7738.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7746.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7750.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7754.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7776.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7784.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7785.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7791.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7793.jpg
http://www.cogitech.ca/photos/SSC_Asph/Cirque/IMG_7799.jpg
With the 7D focusing screen, this will not be possible. With a 5D, 40D or 1D, it is. Simple as that.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:22 PM
p.15 #16Official 7D Thread
I applaud Canon for listening and offering a 1.6 camera with better focusing --- the new 7D
but 18 MP may be too many pixels crammed into a tiny 1.6 sensor (less than 40% the area of full frame)
Canon said most of that same wording on the new sensor when they released the 50D
the improvements to the 50D did not get the job done noise wise at ISO 400+
seems the 50D just had too many pixels for the sensor size - difficult to use in less then optimal light
With the 7D, Canon may have improved 1.6 sensor technology - that remains to be seen in testing
I do hope they are successful
the 7D sensor has the smallest pixels of any camera Canon has produced to date
the smaller the pixel, the less sensitive to light
the result is more noise and less dynamic range
so if the sensor improvements do in fact work as stated, the 7D may be the best 1.6 crop camera
possible problem is .....
a 1.3 sensor with the same technology will be much better noise wise since 1.3 crop is almost twice the sensor area
thus larger pixels with better signal to noise ratio
so people may wait for a 1D Mark IV with the same technology
the problem with 1D cameras is they are too friggin' expensive, too large, and are too heavy
There is a market for the 7D from people who like 1.6 crop camera for birding or EF-S lenses
or just like the smaller size of 1.6 sensor cameras
There is also a market for the 7D from those that cannot afford a 1D. That is a huge market indeed.
but 18 MP may be too many pixels crammed into a tiny 1.6 sensor (less than 40% the area of full frame)
Canon said most of that same wording on the new sensor when they released the 50D
the improvements to the 50D did not get the job done noise wise at ISO 400+
seems the 50D just had too many pixels for the sensor size - difficult to use in less then optimal light
With the 7D, Canon may have improved 1.6 sensor technology - that remains to be seen in testing
I do hope they are successful
the 7D sensor has the smallest pixels of any camera Canon has produced to date
the smaller the pixel, the less sensitive to light
the result is more noise and less dynamic range
so if the sensor improvements do in fact work as stated, the 7D may be the best 1.6 crop camera
possible problem is .....
a 1.3 sensor with the same technology will be much better noise wise since 1.3 crop is almost twice the sensor area
thus larger pixels with better signal to noise ratio
so people may wait for a 1D Mark IV with the same technology
the problem with 1D cameras is they are too friggin' expensive, too large, and are too heavy
There is a market for the 7D from people who like 1.6 crop camera for birding or EF-S lenses
or just like the smaller size of 1.6 sensor cameras
There is also a market for the 7D from those that cannot afford a 1D. That is a huge market indeed.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:28 PM
p.15 #17Official 7D Thread
cogitech wrote:
With the 7D focusing screen, this will not be possible. With a 5D, 40D or 1D, it is. Simple as that.
Why? Honest question.
I see nothing there that a camera with decent AF and a reasonably fast lens attached couldn't cope with perfectly well.
With the 7D focusing screen, this will not be possible. With a 5D, 40D or 1D, it is. Simple as that.
Why? Honest question.
I see nothing there that a camera with decent AF and a reasonably fast lens attached couldn't cope with perfectly well.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:35 PM
p.15 #18Official 7D Thread
Pixel Perfect wrote:
OMG, now we have pro AF we're whining that it doesn't cover enough of the frame.
Given that so many 1D III users (admittedly not all) are happy these days with it's AF performance and that RG still can't get one to focus, I think I'll take his opinions on the 7D with a grain or two of salt and wait and see how birders and the like find it.
Ok, just thinking about the new overlay lcd and how it doesn't need interchangeable screens; does this mean it'll be easier to focus manually with fast glass. I've never even bothered...Show more →
the funny thing is is cover way MORE of the frame than if it HAD been APS-H (or FF)
and realistically, almost covers too much for sports, if anything, although probably not.
OMG, now we have pro AF we're whining that it doesn't cover enough of the frame.
Given that so many 1D III users (admittedly not all) are happy these days with it's AF performance and that RG still can't get one to focus, I think I'll take his opinions on the 7D with a grain or two of salt and wait and see how birders and the like find it.
Ok, just thinking about the new overlay lcd and how it doesn't need interchangeable screens; does this mean it'll be easier to focus manually with fast glass. I've never even bothered...Show more →
the funny thing is is cover way MORE of the frame than if it HAD been APS-H (or FF)
and realistically, almost covers too much for sports, if anything, although probably not.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:38 PM
p.15 #19Official 7D Thread
keithreeder wrote:
Why? Honest question.
I see nothing there that a camera with decent AF and a reasonably fast lens attached couldn't cope with perfectly well.
I'm talking about MF, not AF. All the other cameras mentioned are capable of being manually focused for shots like this. The 7D will not be.
Sure, the 7D's AF system makes this a moot point for many, but if the feature is there in the 40D, 5D and 1-series, why leave it out of the 7D? For a grid overlay? Just plain dumb. Sorry.
cogitech wrote
With the 7D focusing screen, this will not be possible. With a 5D, 40D or 1D, it is. Simple as that.I see nothing there that a camera with decent AF and a reasonably fast lens attached couldn't cope with perfectly well.
I'm talking about MF, not AF. All the other cameras mentioned are capable of being manually focused for shots like this. The 7D will not be.
Sure, the 7D's AF system makes this a moot point for many, but if the feature is there in the 40D, 5D and 1-series, why leave it out of the 7D? For a grid overlay? Just plain dumb. Sorry.
Sep 01, 2009 at 02:39 PM
p.15 #20Official 7D Thread
keithreeder wrote:
Sigh... not that moderately priced in the UK - £1699, which converts (at today's exchange rate) to $2755...
wow, that is insane. But at least you guys make it inexpensive for the rest of the world. (sorry, sorry, wow, that is horrible pricing, insane!)
Tom_W wrote
I think that Canon just did well. A moderately-priced, feature-packed camera.wow, that is insane. But at least you guys make it inexpensive for the rest of the world
. (sorry, sorry, wow, that is horrible pricing, insane!)Sep 01, 2009 at 02:41 PM