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Archive 2009Canon 7D
p.58 #1Canon 7D
charlesk wrote:
Well, as a long-time Canon owner I am still sitting here by the sidelines with my old 5D. I am still waiting for Canon to put out something that will really entice me to spend some more money, and it hasn't happened yet.
Nicely put.
I think that I have been reading these forums to much and getting excited for a different camera than what is coming out. When it is finnally released a lot of people are disapointed because of the dreams they got from this forum.
Well, as a long-time Canon owner I am still sitting here by the sidelines with my old 5D. I am still waiting for Canon to put out something that will really entice me to spend some more money, and it hasn't happened yet.
Nicely put.
I think that I have been reading these forums to much and getting excited for a different camera than what is coming out. When it is finnally released a lot of people are disapointed because of the dreams they got from this forum.
Aug 30, 2009 at 06:17 AM
p.58 #2Canon 7D
charlesk wrote:
Canon used to really innovate but lately it seems their only focus is evolutionary improvements and market segmentation. --c
I cannot agree more with this. And for the same reason as you I think I am going to use my 5D for a long time (I love this camera for everything except wildlife photography).
I think that Canon has been living over marketing myths for years now, using these in order to segment the market, and get people to get several cameras specific to each of their kinds of photography, and this is tiresome now. For instance:
- impossible to make pro-AF for less than $3000 (see Nikon D300).
- impossible to sell 100% VF on non pro grade cameras (see Nikon D700, Sony A850).
- impossible to reduce the price of FF sensors more than they did so far (Nikon and Sony did match Canon one year ago, and will do better soon, as Sony already started with the A850).
- impossible to manage high FPS and FF sensor (see Nikon D700), so impossible to merge of 1-series cameras (Nikon D3, D3X).
- impossible to make a pro-grade camera with weather sealing without a grip... etc
This 7D rumor (if this is confirmed) would mean Canon did take two years to match the Nikon D300 (and add video, which I do not care about). In other words they are clearly losing it.
This camera could work for me as a wildlife camera, but even then I am not enthusiastic enough to seriously consider buying it (I am tired with specialized cameras when other brands have shown this specialization does not make much sense today, as Nikon did do with the d700).
Canon used to really innovate but lately it seems their only focus is evolutionary improvements and market segmentation. --c
I cannot agree more with this. And for the same reason as you I think I am going to use my 5D for a long time (I love this camera for everything except wildlife photography).
I think that Canon has been living over marketing myths for years now, using these in order to segment the market, and get people to get several cameras specific to each of their kinds of photography, and this is tiresome now. For instance:
- impossible to make pro-AF for less than $3000 (see Nikon D300).
- impossible to sell 100% VF on non pro grade cameras (see Nikon D700, Sony A850).
- impossible to reduce the price of FF sensors more than they did so far (Nikon and Sony did match Canon one year ago, and will do better soon, as Sony already started with the A850).
- impossible to manage high FPS and FF sensor (see Nikon D700), so impossible to merge of 1-series cameras (Nikon D3, D3X).
- impossible to make a pro-grade camera with weather sealing without a grip... etc
This 7D rumor (if this is confirmed) would mean Canon did take two years to match the Nikon D300 (and add video, which I do not care about). In other words they are clearly losing it.
This camera could work for me as a wildlife camera, but even then I am not enthusiastic enough to seriously consider buying it (I am tired with specialized cameras when other brands have shown this specialization does not make much sense today, as Nikon did do with the d700).
Aug 30, 2009 at 06:18 AM
p.58 #3Canon 7D
Xavier Rival wrote:
This 7D rumor (if this is confirmed) would mean Canon did take two years to match the Nikon D300 (and add video, which I do not care about). In other words they are clearly losing it.
It doesn't mean that at all.
Canon's current product roadmap would have been more or less cast in stone three or four years ago, and it just happens that at about the same time, Nikon decided to finally get their backsides into gear and start producing cameras which challenged the capabilities of the Canon cameras available at that time.
Canon - or any other company - can't simply see a new rival camera one day and have an answer for it the next.
This 7D rumor (if this is confirmed) would mean Canon did take two years to match the Nikon D300 (and add video, which I do not care about). In other words they are clearly losing it.
It doesn't mean that at all.
Canon's current product roadmap would have been more or less cast in stone three or four years ago, and it just happens that at about the same time, Nikon decided to finally get their backsides into gear and start producing cameras which challenged the capabilities of the Canon cameras available at that time.
Canon - or any other company - can't simply see a new rival camera one day and have an answer for it the next.
Aug 30, 2009 at 06:23 AM
p.58 #4Canon 7D
keithreeder wrote:
It doesn't mean that at all.
Canon's current product roadmap would have been more or less cast in stone three or four years ago, and it just happens that at about the same time, Nikon decided to finally get their backsides into gear and start producing cameras which challenged the capabilities of the Canon cameras available at that time.
Canon - or any other company - can't simply see a new rival camera one day and have an answer for it the next.
I think we are in agreement on this point. To me, being behind on many still photography features is a way of losing it. The fact that it is the result of poor planning / bad anticipation / under-estimation of the competition / decision to sell other features first does not change anything to it.
And since you rightfully point out that a roadmap is prepared years in advance: right now, we are still waiting to see what they have in mind for the three of four years to come, so we might be even more disappointed in the future (25MP rebels with super video features ? more market segmentation ?).
Xavier Rival wrote
This 7D rumor (if this is confirmed) would mean Canon did take two years to match the Nikon D300 (and add video, which I do not care about). In other words they are clearly losing it.Canon's current product roadmap would have been more or less cast in stone three or four years ago, and it just happens that at about the same time, Nikon decided to finally get their backsides into gear and start producing cameras which challenged the capabilities of the Canon cameras available at that time.
Canon - or any other company - can't simply see a new rival camera one day and have an answer for it the next.
I think we are in agreement on this point. To me, being behind on many still photography features is a way of losing it. The fact that it is the result of poor planning / bad anticipation / under-estimation of the competition / decision to sell other features first does not change anything to it.
And since you rightfully point out that a roadmap is prepared years in advance: right now, we are still waiting to see what they have in mind for the three of four years to come, so we might be even more disappointed in the future (25MP rebels with super video features ? more market segmentation ?).
Aug 30, 2009 at 06:48 AM
p.58 #5Canon 7D
Xavier Rival wrote:
I cannot agree more with this. And for the same reason as you I think I am going to use my 5D for a long time (I love this camera for everything except wildlife photography).
I think that Canon has been living over marketing myths for years now, using these in order to segment the market, and get people to get several cameras specific to each of their kinds of photography, and this is tiresome now. For instance:
- impossible to make pro-AF for less than $3000 (see Nikon D300).
- impossible to sell 100% VF on non pro grade cameras (see...Show more →
Xavier D700 only has 95% VF coverage. It's was dust buster that caused the less than 100% coverage. D3 has 100% and no dust buster. Canon and Sony can manage both 100% and dust buster.
I disagree that Canon doesn't innovate, but they have been ridiculously steadfast in not allowing consumer cameras to step on their 1 series toes. Although we poin to Nikon doing so, before the D700/D300 they were similar to Canon and being far behind in sales probably had to do something more radical. It's worked out very well for them and caught Canon resting on their laurels. But Canon isn't stupid and has been slowly (too slowly for some) addressing issues. 50D went part way to addressing D300, 7D looks like it goes all the way. Now they have to address D700, but I think that will be this time next year, unless they surprise us with a 3D at PMA.
charlesk wrote
Canon used to really innovate but lately it seems their only focus is evolutionary improvements and market segmentation. --cI think that Canon has been living over marketing myths for years now, using these in order to segment the market, and get people to get several cameras specific to each of their kinds of photography, and this is tiresome now. For instance:
- impossible to make pro-AF for less than $3000 (see Nikon D300).
- impossible to sell 100% VF on non pro grade cameras (see...Show more →
Xavier D700 only has 95% VF coverage. It's was dust buster that caused the less than 100% coverage. D3 has 100% and no dust buster. Canon and Sony can manage both 100% and dust buster.
I disagree that Canon doesn't innovate, but they have been ridiculously steadfast in not allowing consumer cameras to step on their 1 series toes. Although we poin to Nikon doing so, before the D700/D300 they were similar to Canon and being far behind in sales probably had to do something more radical. It's worked out very well for them and caught Canon resting on their laurels. But Canon isn't stupid and has been slowly (too slowly for some) addressing issues. 50D went part way to addressing D300, 7D looks like it goes all the way. Now they have to address D700, but I think that will be this time next year, unless they surprise us with a 3D at PMA.
Aug 30, 2009 at 06:53 AM
p.58 #6Canon 7D
I think this announcement gives some clarity to Canon's offerings over the next couple of years. First, it makes it clear that Canon is willing to use the old 7 label and I believe they will use the 3 label (i.e., a 3D is coming). Second, it is clear the throughput with 2 digic IV processors is about 150 megapixels per second. Third, I think this camera is not a 1.3 cropper because there will be a 1D MKIV that is a 1.3 cropper. So here is what I think the line up will be coming out over the next 2 years:
1Ds MKIV - about 30 megapixel FF with about 5 fps all the other typical 1D features - $7,000
1D MKIV - about 15 megapixel 1.3 crop, 10 fps, all the other typical 1 d features, $4,000
3D - about 25 megapixels, FF, 6 fps, pro AF, two digic IV processors, 100% viewfinder (maybe # megapixels and fps will change but they will multiply together to about 150 megapixels per second - so maybe 21 megapixels at 7 pfs), $3,000
5D MKII - 21 megapixels, FF, 4 fps, old AF, 1 digic IV processor, 98% viewfinder - $2,200
7D - 18 megapixels, 1.6 crop, 8 fps, pro AF, two digic IV processors,100% viewfinder - $1,800
60D - 18 megapixels, maybe slightly better AF, 6 fps, 1 Digic V processor, 95% viewfinder - $1,200
If this is right there will be a lot of choice and everyone will be pretty happy, but as Pixel has been saying the pro AF in this camera (if it has it) indicates that other non-1D cameras will have it as well and to me that me the mythical 3D is coming before too long and will compete very well with the D700 and it successor.
1Ds MKIV - about 30 megapixel FF with about 5 fps all the other typical 1D features - $7,000
1D MKIV - about 15 megapixel 1.3 crop, 10 fps, all the other typical 1 d features, $4,000
3D - about 25 megapixels, FF, 6 fps, pro AF, two digic IV processors, 100% viewfinder (maybe # megapixels and fps will change but they will multiply together to about 150 megapixels per second - so maybe 21 megapixels at 7 pfs), $3,000
5D MKII - 21 megapixels, FF, 4 fps, old AF, 1 digic IV processor, 98% viewfinder - $2,200
7D - 18 megapixels, 1.6 crop, 8 fps, pro AF, two digic IV processors,100% viewfinder - $1,800
60D - 18 megapixels, maybe slightly better AF, 6 fps, 1 Digic V processor, 95% viewfinder - $1,200
If this is right there will be a lot of choice and everyone will be pretty happy, but as Pixel has been saying the pro AF in this camera (if it has it) indicates that other non-1D cameras will have it as well and to me that me the mythical 3D is coming before too long and will compete very well with the D700 and it successor.
Aug 30, 2009 at 06:54 AM
p.58 #7Canon 7D
I'll believe that Nikon is ahead of Canon in innovation as soon as Nikon releases a camera with more than 21mp and with HD video that sells for less than the 5D2.
Until then, I'll just assume that each company has the edge in some areas and not in others. It's a fool's game to pretend that each camera from each company has a corresponding model in the competition's line of cameras.
Until then, I'll just assume that each company has the edge in some areas and not in others. It's a fool's game to pretend that each camera from each company has a corresponding model in the competition's line of cameras.
Aug 30, 2009 at 06:55 AM
p.58 #8Canon 7D
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think this announcement gives some clarity to Canon's offerings over the next couple of years. First, it makes it clear that Canon is willing to use the old 7 label and I believe they will use the 3 label (i.e., a 3D is coming). Second, it is clear the throughput with 2 digic IV processors is about 150 megapixels per second. Third, I think this camera is not a 1.3 cropper because there will be a 1D MKIV that is a 1.3 cropper. So here is what I think the line up will be coming out over the...Show more →
Steve I think the 1Ds IV at least will be dual digic V that could probably do 200MB/s (~30% faster seems a typical improvement), so a 30MP 1Ds IV could do 6fps. I agree with the 60D specs as I said yesterday it's obvious to me at least that the 60D will be a 50D with HD video and the new 18MP sensor, but little else new of significance, maybe cleaner if its digic V.
I think this announcement gives some clarity to Canon's offerings over the next couple of years. First, it makes it clear that Canon is willing to use the old 7 label and I believe they will use the 3 label (i.e., a 3D is coming). Second, it is clear the throughput with 2 digic IV processors is about 150 megapixels per second. Third, I think this camera is not a 1.3 cropper because there will be a 1D MKIV that is a 1.3 cropper. So here is what I think the line up will be coming out over the...Show more →
Steve I think the 1Ds IV at least will be dual digic V that could probably do 200MB/s (~30% faster seems a typical improvement), so a 30MP 1Ds IV could do 6fps. I agree with the 60D specs as I said yesterday it's obvious to me at least that the 60D will be a 50D with HD video and the new 18MP sensor, but little else new of significance, maybe cleaner if its digic V.
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:03 AM
p.58 #9Canon 7D
Venus wrote:
Well Canon still has no answer to Nikon D700.
Neither do they have any answer to the Nikon D300s.
So logically, Canon will have to come up either a D700 or D300s killer. Or both. That's the name of the game.
Canon doesn't need an answer to a particular camera, they are (assuming some level of intelligence) looking at cameras to fill particular market segments. One could easily reverse the argument and say that Nikon doesn't have an answer to the 5DMkII but I doubt they are all that worried about it. Canon needs something for the high-end (from a cost - not use - perspective) amateur market and I strongly suspect that is the void they are going to try to fill.
If Canon does indeed announce a hopped up 1.6X camera it would be the smartest thing that they can do. It might not be the best thing for pros and wantabes but it will be the perfect camera for well heeled Little League dads and soccer moms. It will be very well received by birders as well as the "average" - non FMer - Canon user. The people here may turn up their noses at a hot cropper but I seriously doubt that the market will.
PS. I shot a bike race last night and would have loved to have had a smaller, high quality, high frame rate sub $2K camera to work with along side the 1DsMkIII. Doesn't mean I want to get rid of the big feller but just because it is a cropper doesn't mean it is a bad camera. Different uses, different markets, but their all good from my perspective.
Well Canon still has no answer to Nikon D700.
Neither do they have any answer to the Nikon D300s.
So logically, Canon will have to come up either a D700 or D300s killer. Or both. That's the name of the game.
Canon doesn't need an answer to a particular camera, they are (assuming some level of intelligence) looking at cameras to fill particular market segments. One could easily reverse the argument and say that Nikon doesn't have an answer to the 5DMkII but I doubt they are all that worried about it. Canon needs something for the high-end (from a cost - not use - perspective) amateur market and I strongly suspect that is the void they are going to try to fill.
If Canon does indeed announce a hopped up 1.6X camera it would be the smartest thing that they can do. It might not be the best thing for pros and wantabes but it will be the perfect camera for well heeled Little League dads and soccer moms. It will be very well received by birders as well as the "average" - non FMer - Canon user. The people here may turn up their noses at a hot cropper but I seriously doubt that the market will.
PS. I shot a bike race last night and would have loved to have had a smaller, high quality, high frame rate sub $2K camera to work with along side the 1DsMkIII. Doesn't mean I want to get rid of the big feller but just because it is a cropper doesn't mean it is a bad camera. Different uses, different markets, but their all good from my perspective.
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:04 AM
p.58 #10Canon 7D
? ISO 6400 photo by the Canon 7D.
http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Electronics/Canon-Camera-News/9443713_z8acz#633426246_QwMDx
Edited on Aug 30, 2009 at 07:11 AM · View previous versions
http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Electronics/Canon-Camera-News/9443713_z8acz#633426246_QwMDx
Edited on Aug 30, 2009 at 07:11 AM · View previous versions
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:04 AM
p.58 #11Canon 7D
I don't know. Canon has never skipped either 1D series camera with a version of the digic processor. I would be surprised if they wait for the digic V (which would be a full 2 years probably--they seem to come out every three years and follow Moore's Law), but I suppose they might.
Edited on Aug 30, 2009 at 07:09 AM · View previous versions
Edited on Aug 30, 2009 at 07:09 AM · View previous versions
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:08 AM
p.58 #12Canon 7D
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think this announcement gives some clarity to Canon's offerings over the next couple of years. First, it makes it clear that Canon is willing to use the old 7 label and I believe they will use the 3 label (i.e., a 3D is coming).
With respect, Steve, I disagree. My take is the following: I agree that the top of the line will be the twin 1Ds/1D in Mk IV iteration. But IMHO the 7 will be the sport/birding sibling of the 5. Whereas the 5 is heavily slanted for portrait/wedding/landscape, with lots of pixels, the 7 will have a crop's reach plus lots of fps and, hopefully, good AF. That screams sport, wildlife etc...
That way, 5D MkII and 7D won't take too much away for the 1 series, and Canon have something in both market segments.
Which of course makes the 7D a 300D (and maybe some 3D)-killer wannabee.
Just my $0.02.
I think this announcement gives some clarity to Canon's offerings over the next couple of years. First, it makes it clear that Canon is willing to use the old 7 label and I believe they will use the 3 label (i.e., a 3D is coming).
With respect, Steve, I disagree. My take is the following: I agree that the top of the line will be the twin 1Ds/1D in Mk IV iteration. But IMHO the 7 will be the sport/birding sibling of the 5. Whereas the 5 is heavily slanted for portrait/wedding/landscape, with lots of pixels, the 7 will have a crop's reach plus lots of fps and, hopefully, good AF. That screams sport, wildlife etc...
That way, 5D MkII and 7D won't take too much away for the 1 series, and Canon have something in both market segments.
Which of course makes the 7D a 300D (and maybe some 3D)-killer wannabee.
Just my $0.02.
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:09 AM
p.58 #13Canon 7D
Xavier Rival wrote:
I cannot agree more with this. And for the same reason as you I think I am going to use my 5D for a long time (I love this camera for everything except wildlife photography).
I think that Canon has been living over marketing myths for years now, using these in order to segment the market, and get people to get several cameras specific to each of their kinds of photography, and this is tiresome now. For instance:
- impossible to make pro-AF for less than $3000 (see Nikon D300).
- impossible to sell 100% VF on non pro grade cameras (see...Show more →
So you would rather Canon simply made one camera? If that were the case I guarantee you would find that more tiresome.
charlesk wrote
Canon used to really innovate but lately it seems their only focus is evolutionary improvements and market segmentation. --cI think that Canon has been living over marketing myths for years now, using these in order to segment the market, and get people to get several cameras specific to each of their kinds of photography, and this is tiresome now. For instance:
- impossible to make pro-AF for less than $3000 (see Nikon D300).
- impossible to sell 100% VF on non pro grade cameras (see...Show more →
So you would rather Canon simply made one camera? If that were the case I guarantee you would find that more tiresome.
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:12 AM
p.58 #14Canon 7D
Sanlameer wrote:
? ISO 6400 photo by the Canon 7D.
http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Electronics/Canon-Camera-News/9443713_z8acz#633426246_QwMDx
Not sure about that; someone posted this sample in the DPR 1D/5D forum, and then at the end of that thread apologized after he discovered it was really a 50D file.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=32843674
Mark
? ISO 6400 photo by the Canon 7D.
http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Electronics/Canon-Camera-News/9443713_z8acz#633426246_QwMDx
Not sure about that; someone posted this sample in the DPR 1D/5D forum, and then at the end of that thread apologized after he discovered it was really a 50D file.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=32843674
Mark
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:13 AM
p.58 #15Canon 7D
macshark wrote:
Why not get a EOS 5D then? New 5D are selling for less than $2K...
I got quite many replies because of my previous post.
Thanks for the reply, everyone.
Almost all of you recommended me to buy a 5D in this case. I don't think I will because 5D lacks some features which I considered important. For examples, the 920K 3-inch LCD display and the self-cleaning sensor are very useful.
The features of 5D2 will satisfy me although I also want an imporvement on its AF system.
Some previous posts use a Ferrari analogy to compare with a 5D2. To my situation the analogy doesn't apply. I cannot afford a Ferrari but I can afford a 5D2. The problem is that I can afford a 5D2 but I don't want to buy it! With the availability of Sony A850 and Nikon D700, I think 5D2 is not priced right. I am willing to pay when an item I wanted is priced right.
twilighter wrote
I don't need very high resolution. I don't need high FPS. I don't need pro AF. I just want a resonable priced full-frame body. Sony A850 satisfies my need. If not because of my L lenses, I'll get A850 right away.I got quite many replies because of my previous post.
Thanks for the reply, everyone.
Almost all of you recommended me to buy a 5D in this case. I don't think I will because 5D lacks some features which I considered important. For examples, the 920K 3-inch LCD display and the self-cleaning sensor are very useful.
The features of 5D2 will satisfy me although I also want an imporvement on its AF system.
Some previous posts use a Ferrari analogy to compare with a 5D2. To my situation the analogy doesn't apply. I cannot afford a Ferrari but I can afford a 5D2. The problem is that I can afford a 5D2 but I don't want to buy it! With the availability of Sony A850 and Nikon D700, I think 5D2 is not priced right. I am willing to pay when an item I wanted is priced right.
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:19 AM
p.58 #16Canon 7D
Steve Spencer wrote:
....3D - about 25 megapixels, FF, 6 fps, pro AF, two digic IV processors, 100% viewfinder (maybe # megapixels and fps will change but they will multiply together to about 150 megapixels per second - so maybe 21 megapixels at 7 pfs), $3,000
...
and to me that me the mythical 3D is coming before too long and will compete very well with the D700 and it successor.
Please, please, please.
....3D - about 25 megapixels, FF, 6 fps, pro AF, two digic IV processors, 100% viewfinder (maybe # megapixels and fps will change but they will multiply together to about 150 megapixels per second - so maybe 21 megapixels at 7 pfs), $3,000
...
and to me that me the mythical 3D is coming before too long and will compete very well with the D700 and it successor.
Please, please, please.
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:27 AM
p.58 #17Canon 7D
Xavier Rival wrote:
I think that Canon has been living over marketing myths for years now, using these in order to segment the market, and get people to get several cameras specific to each of their kinds of photography, and this is tiresome now. For instance:
- impossible to make pro-AF for less than $3000 (see Nikon D300).
- impossible to sell 100% VF on non pro grade cameras (see Nikon D700, Sony A850).
- impossible to reduce the price of FF sensors more than they did so far (Nikon and Sony did match Canon one year ago, and will do better soon, as Sony...Show more →
To be fair to Canon... it seems like most of those myths have been started by, and propagated by Canon fans, not the company itself.
I think that Canon has been living over marketing myths for years now, using these in order to segment the market, and get people to get several cameras specific to each of their kinds of photography, and this is tiresome now. For instance:
- impossible to make pro-AF for less than $3000 (see Nikon D300).
- impossible to sell 100% VF on non pro grade cameras (see Nikon D700, Sony A850).
- impossible to reduce the price of FF sensors more than they did so far (Nikon and Sony did match Canon one year ago, and will do better soon, as Sony...Show more →
To be fair to Canon... it seems like most of those myths have been started by, and propagated by Canon fans, not the company itself.
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:30 AM
p.58 #19Canon 7D
michael49 wrote:
...
and to me that me the mythical 3D is coming before too long and will compete very well with the D700 and it successor.Please, please, please.
I think that Canon will create such a camera because the successor to the D700 will be something similar and I think Canon can see that too.
Steve Spencer wrote
....3D - about 25 megapixels, FF, 6 fps, pro AF, two digic IV processors, 100% viewfinder (maybe # megapixels and fps will change but they will multiply together to about 150 megapixels per second - so maybe 21 megapixels at 7 pfs), $3,000...
and to me that me the mythical 3D is coming before too long and will compete very well with the D700 and it successor.
I think that Canon will create such a camera because the successor to the D700 will be something similar and I think Canon can see that too.
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:49 AM
p.58 #20Canon 7D
hiii ... that's why they don't need to make any announcements in china. from china, everything is leaked to the world!
Aug 30, 2009 at 07:53 AM