If my wedding album manufacturer makes mistakes, it's still my product and I'm still responsible to the clients. Yes, the vendor stuffed up, but if I'm still happy to sell it regardless, I own the end result.
These PLM's are lousy for use outdoors with the front diffuser on. It's the truth.
Yes an hour or two's sewing of 32 velcro tabs per PLM (I bought all 6 versions with diffusers) will fix the problem, but if a) it was better designed- with factory sewn velcor like the Softliters, or b) if production was perfect, we wouldn't have this problem.
This issue doesn't affect those not wanting the front diffuser.
Similarily- the black rear cover for the white PLM's have sewing issues (or at least mine do). They are under a reasonable amount of tension and do not appear as though they will last long if given regular use. Several brolly black covers I own have a metal ring rather than a sewn round hole- so again, this PLM flaw exists due to a combination of a design decision and Chinese sweat shop manufacturing- that must be perfect for the design to work.
I am far from anti PCB as evidenced by many previous posts, I'm just being honest about what's in front of me.
* I love the ribs- strong and flexiable, very nice.
* I love the parabolic design- sheer brilliance
* I would send them all back at my expense regardless, due to their not meeting my outdoor shooting needs, if the original freight to Aust (1/3 the cost) could be refunded.
shoebox9 - For the price, I don't think you should expect Profoto grade parabolics. Seriously. And early adopters will always suffer the consequence in terms of build - defects, etc........ it's the price you pay for being the first in the block (I'm sure you must know that as a consumer). Why would you buy "ALL" 6 versions without reading reviews from other people? It is fairly clear from reading initial reactions that the build quality is not perfect and that the front diffuser does not attach properly to the PLM. You obviously did not do your research very well.
roanjohnnyc wrote:
shoebox9 - For the price, I don't think you should expect Profoto grade parabolics. Seriously. And early adopters will always suffer the consequence in terms of build - defects, etc........ it's the price you pay for being the first in the block (I'm sure you must know that as a consumer). Why would you buy "ALL" 6 versions without reading reviews from other people? It is fairly clear from reading initial reactions that the build quality is not perfect and that the front diffuser does not attach properly to the PLM. You obviously did not do your research very well....Show more →
So, in other words, caveat emptor? The burden is on the buyer to accept a product's shortcomings, not the manufacturer to accept people's dissatisfaction with those shortcomings? Have you been reading the thread about people's unhappiness with the Elinchrom Quadra shutting down in excessively hot/humid environments and do you feel that Elinchrom also gets a free pass on that build issue?
I don't see shoebox9 looking for Profoto-grade, I see him looking for Photek grade...something that's at almost the exact same price point.
But this culture of "early adopter = beta tester" is going a little too far. Where it barely makes sense in the software/firmware world, it really doesn't make sense in the world of hardware. There's no service patch or hotfix for an umbrella.
I agree Shatterkiss. But really what does anyone expect for $75.00? In this case it should be trust but verify. You can't hardly buy a good 40" to 60" vinyl backed umbrella for less than $80 to $100 so how can anyone expect something of this size and makeup to have a similar build quality and durability. The packaging and freight costs alone for it would be about double of a standard umbrella.
shatterkiss wrote:
So, in other words, caveat emptor? The burden is on the buyer to accept a product's shortcomings, not the manufacturer to accept people's dissatisfaction with those shortcomings? Have you been reading the thread about people's unhappiness with the Elinchrom Quadra shutting down in excessively hot/humid environments and do you feel that Elinchrom also gets a free pass on that build issue?
I don't see shoebox9 looking for Profoto-grade, I see him looking for Photek grade...something that's at almost the exact same price point.
But this culture of "early adopter = beta tester" is going a little too far. Where it barely makes sense in the software/firmware world, it really doesn't make sense in the world of hardware. There's no service patch or hotfix for an umbrella....Show more →
Comparing this to the Elinchrom incident is not really fair because his PLM is still operational. It still functions as a large directional light source which is what it was advertised to begin with.
It is a known fact (even before this product was shipped to the market) that a large parabolic umbrella of this nature is probably not best suited for outdoor use, or any umbrella for that matter. So if shoebox is intending to use this modifier for mostly outside the studio, it might have been prudent on his part to do a bit of research in terms of build quality (especially for the price!!) instead of rushing out and getting ALL SIX variations - and then airing out his complaints here and asking for 1/3 shipping cost back because of poor stitching, lack of metal plate and lack of velcro on a product that is not broken!!
While my PLM's work fine outdoors, I'd like to see Shatterkiss' results and the nature of his complaint.
I (and apparently from his comments Paul Buff as well) agree about the sewing of the black coverlet on the translucent PLM version. I don't abuse equipment but having had one $75.00 46' 7mm shaft version of a Photek Softlighter II go toes up -broken shaft- within a year of purchase and the diffusion screen on the other tear out around the eyelets. I still think the PLMs are a pretty good value for the money.
I have no complaint, nor did I express one. As I've said earlier, I'm really not in the market for a PLM...even less so as I start to see resulting images from folks that make me think it isn't really the right tool for what I shoot or how I shoot it, though I certainly could be shortsighted there. I'm simply responding to this dynamic of "I like this product but I have some complaints about it" leading to "how can you possibly complain about these things when you should have known it had these problems before you bought it?"
I agree that the Softlighter isn't the best-constructed item either - again, I never said that it was, just that it's a more-comparable product to the PLM than a Profoto parabolic is, largely because of their comparable price points. I've gone through three or four Softlighters myself over the last 2-3 years and I tend to treat them as very fragile. But I also think that the velcro tabs on the diffuser and the reinforced shaft ring on the nylon cover are basic design necessities and am surprised that a similar product would be released without them.
I also didn't see Paul suggesting that the PLM isn't designed for outdoor use even with the diffuser...in fact, I seem to remember him specifically suggesting it be used outdoors in situations like overpowering daylight with less strobe output. So I think that shoebox's concerns about using it outdoors seem very relevant.
But, more to the point, why are people not allowed to register complaints or reservations about the item, especially if they've spent their own money on it?
"I have no complaint, nor did I express one. As I've said earlier, I'm really not in the market for a PLM..."
I am disappointed to learn that you are just speculating about how well it works or doesn't work.
"But, more to the point, why are people not allowed to register complaints or reservations about the item, especially if they've spent their own money on it? "
I don't see anyone stopping anyone from registering complaints or reservations about any item discussed on this bulletin board. Some people may not like what they read and argue back but that hardly amounts to what you just alleged.
shatterkiss wrote:
I'm simply responding to this dynamic of "I like this product but I have some complaints about it" leading to "how can you possibly complain about these things when you should have known it had these problems before you bought it?"
But, more to the point, why are people not allowed to register complaints or reservations about the item, especially if they've spent their own money on it?
I have no problem with people complaining about any products. In fact, I think it's great so that manufacturers can get feedback and improve on shortcomings for the next generation. What irked me about shoebox's case are his snide comments: "That you were/are happy to sell anyway" and this "I would send them all back at my expense regardless, due to their not meeting my outdoor shooting needs, if the original freight to Aust (1/3 the cost) could be refunded." First off, know the return policy and make sure you know the terms before ordering from any company (especially that he lives in Aust) - don't demand that they refund you the shipping cost when that is not the policy. And secondly, before you rush and order every item on the board, maybe it's best to wait for real user reviews to see if the product will suit your needs - or maybe start with 1 to see if it works out......and order the other 5 if you are happy.
............and yes, there should be a more secure way to hold the front diffuser!!! and metal rings on the black outer diffuser would be a welcome addition!! I am all for that.
shatterkiss wrote:
I also didn't see Paul suggesting that the PLM isn't designed for outdoor use even with the diffuser...in fact, I seem to remember him specifically suggesting it be used outdoors in situations like overpowering daylight with less strobe output. So I think that shoebox's concerns about using it outdoors seem very relevant.
But thats with the silver PLM without the front diffuser (overpowering the sun). And shoebox himself said it's not a problem with this set-up from his earlier statement
This is not a matter of a defective product. It is about the manufacturing quality not being entirely up to our expectations and samples. Our customer feedback has been very positive and PLM works very well and as advertised. We are now in the beginning stages of working with another vendor to improve the quality . . . but this process takes months.
From a manufacturer standpoint, when you wait two months for products to be made and shipped in large quantities you must make the decision to accept the shipment or reject it. If you reject it, you enter the court system in another country . . . usually a lose/lose situation and nobody gets the product.
I will apologize (for the vendor) for sewing quality not being up to my standards, but stand behind the PLM as being a good and valuable new product - as attested to many times. We are hand inspecting each one before shipment to cull out any actual defects.
As for usability outdoors in windy conditions, no fabric modifier of this size is suitable for this sort of use . . . and that includes $3000 ones, as any experienced shooter already knows, unless you are willing to put stakes in the ground and use multiple guy cables to keep it from sailing away.
Regarding our return policies, we believe they are the very best in the industry, as attested to over and over on these forums and among our customers.
Shatterkiss and Ellis: I consider your comments valid constructive. PLM is perfectly well suited for outdoor use, but it should be obvious this doesn't include windy conditions anymore than suggesting you should drive your car through a tornado.
Paul Buff wrote:
If you reject it, you enter the court system in another country . . . usually a lose/lose situation and nobody gets the product.
...and you can imagine the "..why no product?!?! *OUTRAGED*" threads that errupt from that! Looking forward to giving these a whirl, PCB has generally been a less-expensive solution for many lighting needs.
jeremy_clay wrote:
...and you can imagine the "..why no product?!?! *OUTRAGED*" threads that errupt from that! Looking forward to giving these a whirl, PCB has generally been a less-expensive solution for many lighting needs.
Sure can - been there. I live in a glass house, unlike CEOs of corporate America.
Dude everyone expects way to much for a freaking 80 dollar umbrella. Its 80 dollars. Lets remember that. Addressing complaints and issues is cool....but keep in mind...you didnt pay 300/400/3000 for this product.
When you pay less, you should expect less. Typically, one should expect a very short life from these type of products, especially when they're new and there are no hard reviews to advise about the products pros and cons.
I'm no longer dumbfounded when I see enthusiastic responses to a new product and resulting must-buy immediate orders. If your gear is important to you, then don't buy anything that's not tried and true. Paul has made a critical error in releasing this product without substantial beta testing. He's put himself at the mercy of his customers who've paid for the product and expect it to perform at a certain level without really knowing that it's capable of doing so. Photographers who have purchased this and use it in the field, especially on paying gigs, are risking their reputation.
Neither side has reason to complain one way or the other. If you take a risk, you have to live with the consequences if things don't go your way.
I wanted a product I could use outdoors. Not in a tornado, not even in a strong breeze, just outdoors with normal slight breeze.
The PLM's work nicely without the front diffuser, but it simply starts flapping in the slightest of a breeze.
Is it unreasonable to expect that a product sold with a front diffuser, will have an attachment system that relies on a combination of gravity and a perfectly windless environment?
My confidence to buy all 6 versions came from Paul pulling other not-up-to-spec products. I didn't expect to be a Beta Tester of a product that in it's current form is not practical to use in virtually any outdoor setting with it's front diffuser attached.
In short, I trusted PCB to be selling a product that would do what he claimed it would do. (Outdoor shooting with PLM's was mentioned several times by Paul on this forum.)
The PLM's are, IMHO a brilliant step forward in brolly design- but Paul at a minimum should put a notice on his website to the effect that the current batch are not suitable for outdoor shooting with the front diffusers attached- because they barely attach.
You can get a sense of the attachment from this photo. It's really not that secure. I'm thinking an alternating locking mechanism at the end of the rod tips to secure it in (8 in total) - maybe a rubber band or something.
Looking forward to giving these a whirl, PCB has generally been a less-expensive solution for many lighting needs.