Archive 2008 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Comm...
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p.6 #1 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
gmacklem wrote:
Why not discuss hypothetical situations? Can I assume you wouldn't shoot the kind of ceremony I mentioned? If not, then you have drawn a line just a little further down than the line the photographer in question drew. So who is right? Should there be a line at all? Or should we each be free to draw the line where we see fit?
Like I said, I am just trying to figure out the answer myself, so don't take my questioning wrong.
I don't like to talk about hypotheticals, because in my view the particulars of a situation matter and we don't have them with a hypothetical. In this specific hypothetical I also don't know that much about ancient temple rites, but from the little I do know they varied greatly so I wasn't exactly sure what you meant.
That is why I stated the principle I did above which ought to be a good guide in whatever the situation would be. So I don't know what I would do in the ceremony you asked about partly because I don't really know what that ceremony would be like, but I do know that I would judge whether to shoot it based on what my actions would be in the situation and not what the actions of my clients would be in the situation. So I see the matter as not an issue of where to draw the line, but rather an issue of what type of line to draw. I hope this is clear.
Edited by Steve Spencer on Apr 11, 2008 at 11:44 PM GMT (Reason: fixed typos)
p.6 #2 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
They shouldn't be forced to accept a job when it conflicts with their beliefs. It would make the work sub par, make them uncomfortable during the shoot and would compromise them. It's true that they should have handled it with more tact, but they should not be penalized because they didn't want to shoot the wedding.
p.6 #8 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
+1 Steve
Steve Spencer wrote:
I would say that if this is their belief, then it is not a Christian belief and they still have more soul searching to do. Christ himself ministered to tax collectors (who were chronic thiefs) and harlots. Was he condoning their lifestyles when he ministered to them? Of course not. When firefighter puts out a fire at a casino or a whorehouse is he or she condoning gambling and or prostitution? Of course not. When a restaurant owner serves a second helping to an overweight patron is he or she condoning gluttony? Of course not. When Christians provide services for others they are never condoning the beliefs and practices of those to whom they are providing services. Christians are responsible for their actions in providing the services. They are not responsible for the actions of their patrons or how they use the services.
As Christian this couple should also recognize that the government has a right (and authority given by God) to establish laws that restrain sin. Not only the sin of non-Christians, but the sins of Christians too. They should also recognize that denial of service to some and not others has often been done for very sinful reasons. For this reason as I outlined before they should also examine themselves and questions whether they are showing the love toward this couple that they are commanded to show or instead are they themselves acting in a sinful way. As Christians they should recognize their own propensity toward sin and flee from it....Show more →
Apr 11, 2008 at 11:31 PM
stockriderman Offline • • [X]
p.6 #9 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
unblinkable wrote:
Well put.
You should email that to them. Very well worded. Only a judge on drugs can't agree with this..
p.6 #10 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
annayu wrote:
That sums it up.
Well OK I do turn down jobs all the time, but the only discrimination I have is against those who don't want to pay my prices.
Ahhh, discrimination against the monetarily challegened.....
Apr 11, 2008 at 11:41 PM
FoxyLoxy Offline • • • [X]
p.6 #11 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Steve Spencer-
Steve, I think I want to agree with you on principle. I was raised in a very traditional, Christian manner. As such we seem to adopt a stricter interpretation of some biblical words while kind of grazing over others. Our various positions in the world are never perfect, thus we seem to acquire some undesirable trait or other ie: my struggle with loving my neighbor, Red's ability to chafe with just about anyone. Anyhow I am attempting to reform myself on a few issues that I think have been downplayed- specifically in my corner of the Christian world (Catholicism if you care).
At any rate I am inclined to agree with you until it occurred to me that if as Christians they believe that the homosexual acts were wrong, the service that they were being solicited for was that of a union of their sin, very much a coup` de grace of the act itself. I find it hard to believe that this would be acceptable (in their beliefs) when it is entirely unnecessary that specifically they themselves photograph the union as there were other options for the couple. A doctor in an emergency room does not apply here.
Red:
Things done in the name of Christianity do not always reflect on whom they believe in. I would argue that anything a person has ever done has needed justification in that person's mind. Given this very basic notion of humanity It is not fair to say that all the persons circumstances and situations bear weight (or certainly do not bear all weight) in assigning responsibility for those actions. Given the fact that Christianity played a large role as a power in the middle ages when many of the more maligned alleged Christian atrocities were committed, I can contend that their professed Christianity was merely a circumstances that proved useful. Doing it in the name of Christianity was a banner used unjustly to gain acceptance by the general populace.
Would you in turn contend that the net negative of Christianity outweighs the net positive historically? This query being principally to establish some basic beliefs. I would also like to bring up the two largest atheistic bodies ever established- the USSR- tucking an estimated 20-60 million dead under its girth, as well as early Communist China with an equally staggering amount. These regularly being quoted as the two largest death tolls of any people/religion/monarchy/govt to ever maintain power (and in such a short time I might add). This being appropriate as it seems (and many others openly contend) that you feel we would be better off without religion in any form.
Edited by FoxyLoxy on Apr 11, 2008 at 11:04 PM GMT
Edited by FoxyLoxy on Apr 11, 2008 at 11:07 PM GMT
Edited by FoxyLoxy on Apr 13, 2008 at 12:16 AM GMT
p.6 #12 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Who really has never discriminated against anyone We all try not to discriminate in everything that we do but there are so many factors that are built into each and every one of us from our life experiences. Let the GLB community be but don't infringe on my right to live my own life and make my own CHOICES based upon how I was raised. But what we say really doesn't matter it'll be appealed and life will go on for all
p.6 #13 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
i would like to believe that a christian's highest value would be unconditional love. if two people, their biological assets aside, wish to symbolize the permanence of their commitment to love each other unconditionally by taking part in the wedding ritual, what right minded christian could disapprove? this can only strengthen love. judging others to be unworthy of sharing and celebrating their love, is anti-love, hateful, hurtful, self-absorbed and truly anti-christian.
p.6 #14 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Its not about approval. The notion of approval or judgement isnt a christian value. My understanding is that judgment belongs to God, not the individual.
I dont have any idea what the photographers in question were thinking, really none of us do.
Perhaps they felt that they would be supporting/condoning/glorifying something that was not right. So whilst they were not necessarily judging the couple, they may have felt that they would be violating their own religious code by shooting the wedding? If this is the argument I dont think this can be discrimination.
I still have to wonder about the train of thought that led the couple to approach these photographers in the first place. Sounds like entrapment!
suyenfung wrote:
i would like to believe that a christian's highest value would be unconditional love. if two people, their biological assets aside, wish to symbolize the permanence of their commitment to love each other unconditionally by taking part in the wedding ritual, what right minded christian could disapprove? this can only strengthen love. judging others to be unworthy of sharing and celebrating their love, is anti-love, hateful, hurtful, self-absorbed and truly anti-christian.
p.6 #15 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
"As Christian this couple should also recognize that the government has a right (and authority given by God) to establish laws that restrain sin."
As a matter of interest (and in no way meant to be provocative) does this apply to all governments or only that of the US?
Apr 12, 2008 at 01:03 AM
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p.6 #16 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
paulhodson wrote:
"As Christian this couple should also recognize that the government has a right (and authority given by God) to establish laws that restrain sin."
As a matter of interest (and in no way meant to be provocative) does this apply to all governments or only that of the US?
Hi Paul,
The particular Bible passage I had in mind was Romans 13:1-6. Which reads:
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
This passage was written to Romans, so the Roman government was clearly in view, but has generally been understood to include all governments. One should also keep in mind that at the time this was written there were no Christians in the Roman government and the government did not look very favorably upon this group.
p.6 #17 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Well - that's OK - but if that then means that the government of Zimbabwe (as a random example) has been established by God it is somewhat disconcerting to see Robert Mugabe as an agent of God's wrath.
p.6 #18 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
The only people who can be sued for discrimination are straight white people.
Never not once have I ever heard of a white person suing or suceeding in suing some person of a different race for discrimination. It doesn't happen.
I was in Sydney a few weeks ago and went to the corner store for a bacon and egg roll. Told me they didn't have bacon on the menu I asked why. Gave me some rubbish about muslim or whatever. Can I sue them for discriminating against me.
Or do I just cop it on the chin and go to another shop?
p.6 #19 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
suyenfung wrote:
i would like to believe that a christian's highest value would be unconditional love. if two people, their biological assets aside, wish to symbolize the permanence of their commitment to love each other unconditionally by taking part in the wedding ritual, what right minded christian could disapprove? this can only strengthen love. judging others to be unworthy of sharing and celebrating their love, is anti-love, hateful, hurtful, self-absorbed and truly anti-christian.
But its okay for you to judge these Christians as hateful, anti-love, hurtful, self-absorbed and truly anti-christian because they exercise their judgment?
What is unconditional love anyway? Is it necessarily bending over backwards in order to accommodate other people? I love my children unconditionally, but I don't allow them to run across a busy street even if they beg me.
Edited by EltonTeng on Apr 12, 2008 at 12:31 AM GMT
p.6 #20 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
Turning down a job is not discrimination - turning down a job because you are ____ and I do not agree with your ____ is.
RWR - so if a thug and his posse come to you and make you to shoot his wedding, you're more than happy to comply, eventhough they make you feel uncomfortable about yourself, you feel uncomfortable around the groom, his posse, the guests, and for once you hope a deity to help you get through the wedding? You would not turn down this job? Would you go out of your way to book another event on that day to avoid the job?
We all try not to discriminate in everything that we do but there are so many factors that are built into each and every one of us from our life experiences. Let the GLB community be but don't infringe on my right to live my own life and make my own CHOICES based upon how I was raised. But what we say really doesn't matter it'll be appealed and life will go on for all