Archive 2008 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Comm...
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p.5 #1 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Well I don't want to get into hypothetical cases, but I will state the principle that Christians when offering services should look at their own actions and judge their own actions as being sinful or not. In contrast, they should not judge their patrons actions in determining whether they offer the service. From this priniciple I do not think it it hard to draw the line.
p.5 #2 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
gmacklem wrote:
If you truly accepted that other people have different beliefs than you, you would not be making fun of them. Yet you do make fun of them and if I am not mistaken that would be considered discrimination.
I never said anything about accepting - the issue is discriminating. And, this is deadly serious - tragically.
p.5 #3 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Steve Spencer wrote:
I would say that if this is their belief, then it is not a Christian belief and they still have more soul searching to do. Christ himself ministered to tax collectors (who were chronic thiefs) and harlots. Was he condoning their lifestyles when he ministered to them? Of course not. When firefighter puts out a fire at a casino or a whorehouse is he or she condoning gambling and or prostitution? Of course not. When a restaurant owner serves a second helping to an overweight patron is he or she condoning gluttony? Of course not. When Christians provide services for others they are never condoning the beliefs and practices of those to whom they are providing services. Christians are responsible for their actions in providing the services. They are not responsible for the actions of their patrons or how they use the services.
As Christian this couple should also recognize that the government has a right (and authority given by God) to establish laws that restrain sin. Not only the sin of non-Christians, but the sins of Christians too. They should also recognize that denial of service to some and not others has often been done for very sinful reasons. For this reason as I outlined before they should also examine themselves and questions whether they are showing the love toward this couple that they are commanded to show or instead are they themselves acting in a sinful way. As Christians they should recognize their own propensity toward sin and flee from it....Show more →
Steve:
When Christ ministered to the tax collectors, and harlots, he also told them to go and sin no more. I believe you will find that the bible says homosexuality is wrong, and therefore, I very much doubt you would find Christ either marrying the couple, or taking their pictures, and then telling them to go and sin no more.
p.5 #4 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Steve Spencer wrote:
Well I don't want to get into hypothetical cases, but I will state the principle that Christians when offering services should look at their own actions and judge their own actions as being sinful or not. In contrast, they should not judge their patrons actions in determining whether they offer the service. From this priniciple I do not think it it hard to draw the line.
Why not discuss hypothetical situations? Can I assume you wouldn't shoot the kind of ceremony I mentioned? If not, then you have drawn a line just a little further down than the line the photographer in question drew. So who is right? Should there be a line at all? Or should we each be free to draw the line where we see fit?
Like I said, I am just trying to figure out the answer myself, so don't take my questioning wrong.
p.5 #5 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Read the New Mexico Civil Rights Act of 1955 - internet bs aside, the code's pretty clear. To close the door is breaking the law.
It should be noted that there's no civil or criminal suit here. It's only a $6000 fine, which is pennies in the litigation world. There is a Christian organization that's paying her fine / legal fees. Her business will no doubt do VERY well in the controversy.
p.5 #6 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
shelleyc wrote:
When Christ ministered to the tax collectors, and harlots, he also told them to go and sin no more. I believe you will find that the bible says homosexuality is wrong, and therefore, I very much doubt you would find Christ either marrying the couple, or taking their pictures, and then telling them to go and sin no more.
The bible likely says no such thing - though there is a mention that if you happen to kill your wife on a Tuesday then a quick dispensation is achieved through the sacrifice of three brown lambs on a Friday.
p.5 #7 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
I never said anything about accepting - the issue is discriminating. And, this is deadly serious - tragically.
But you are practicing discrimination right here. You are making fun of Christian, or rather all religion's, beliefs because they are not like your own. No, it isn't discrimination from a business standpoint, but discrimination. Yet the photographers in question are wrong and you are right?
Apr 11, 2008 at 10:54 PM
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p.5 #8 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
Now - this is not true at all. Though, if you want to comfort yourself by kneeling before a teddy bear, a bearded geezer or a bottle of gin - have at it.
Red I think you missed my point--perhaps because of my typo. I am saying that part of Christian belief is that the government has a right and authority given by God to establish laws to restrain sin.
Now if you do not agree with Christian beliefs you might well not agree with this particular aspect of Christian belief, but you could believe that it is still part of Christian teaching.
You might also see that it is reasonable for one Christian to suggest that other Christians should act in accordance with their common beliefs.
All I was arguing in what you quoted above is that as Christians this couple should hold to this specific aspect of Christian teaching. I recognize that non-Christian may very well not hold to this belief. I hope that clarifies what I was saying.
p.5 #9 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
gmacklem wrote:
Yet the photographers in question are wrong and you are right?
On the matter of civil government authority descending from some amorphic entity - absolutely. The authority of a civil government stems from the people.
p.5 #10 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
The bible likely says no such thing - though there is a mention that if you happen to kill your wife on a Tuesday then a quick dispensation is achieved through the sacrifice of three brown lambs on a Friday.
Not sure just what Bible you have been reading.
p.5 #11 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
On the matter of civil government authority descending from some amorphic entity - absolutely. The authority of a civil government stems from the people.
Once again you have proven my point for me. You believe that civil government comes from man, Christians believe it comes from God. Again, you feel your belief is right and trumps Christians beliefs. But society today says not to do this, all beliefs should be accepted. Do you not abide by that?
p.5 #12 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Steve Spencer wrote:
Red I think you missed my point--perhaps because of my typo. I am saying that part of Christian belief is that the government has a right and authority given by God to establish laws to restrain sin.
I can go along with that. In the same sense as a child believes all power comes from the parent - if the religious person thinks government's authority comes from their god - so be it. No major harm though to advance society people have to step far beyond this notion.
Just as a child sooner or later learns that the parent is not infallible.
p.5 #14 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put death, should I do it or should I ask the police to do it?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Aren't there 'degrees' of abomination?
Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20 or is there a little wiggle room there?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I like the New Mexico Civil Rights Act of 1955 better
Edited by tomKphoto on Apr 11, 2008 at 10:04 PM GMT
Edited on Apr 11, 2008 at 11:04 PM
Apr 11, 2008 at 11:00 PM
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p.5 #15 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
shelleyc wrote:
Steve:
When Christ ministered to the tax collectors, and harlots, he also told them to go and sin no more. I believe you will find that the bible says homosexuality is wrong, and therefore, I very much doubt you would find Christ either marrying the couple, or taking their pictures, and then telling them to go and sin no more.
Well when Christ ministered to tax collectors and harlots and others sinners, He first treated them well and often healed them and then told them to go and sin no more. In this case if the photographers were going to follow this example they would first shoot the wedding doing a good job at a fair rate and then would respectfully tell them about their own beliefs. No one is denying them the opportunity to do so. These photographers should love them as neighbors and treat them well and tell them about their beliefs.
p.5 #18 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Take a good trip through the King James.
Those who disagree with the Christian worldview like to quote passages from the Bible without explaining how it fits within the wider context.
Everyone is trying to convert others, even if they don't think they are.
It seems like the photographers got hung due to a technicality...not showing the pricing, etc? well...that's just based from what I skimmed on this thread.
I need to check to laws in my area.
Edited by gillyohan on Apr 12, 2008 at 04:09 AM GMT
p.5 #20 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Well, this thread has been interesting, but it is way past my bed time. I am sure it will be locked or deleted by morning, but I hope to see how it progressed or degenerated.
I am sure it will be locked or deleted by morning, but I hope to see how it progressed or degenerated. 