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Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel

  
 
taildraggin
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p.1112 #1 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


No. It's clear in the FAR. PIC of the chopper had to "See & Avoid" under VFR in VMC.

IMO, 33 was OK for turboprops that can slow quickly, but marginal for jets. The rwy is long enough (7100'), but that last 35 deg is too tight and low. You're aimed at the US Capitol until the last moment, so national security allows planes only the width of the river for a low, descending turn. DCA authority wants the most volume, and the military MUST get to the Pentagon, etc. etc. (Not many turbos flying anymore, so RJs are using 33 more?)

chas wrote:
I know a number of you are pilots, and I am not. But I have always been highly interested in aviation, and have read and studied for decades on numerous aviation topics. Regarding the collision of American Eagle JIA342 and Army Blackhawk PAT25, I lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of both the FAA and the United States Army Aviation Branch. If the NTSB in any way blame the pilots in the incident, they are not doing their job. Let’s look at all of the holes in this swiss cheese:

1. In an effort to maximize commercial air traffic in
...Show more

Definitely, the 33 approach is sketchy, simply because you have to stay over the river. NP, if you have good separation, though. Reading the ADS-B data though, it looks like the PAT5 was ***above*** the VFR Route 4 ceiling - busted 200' altitude.

chas wrote:
2. The FAA creates the Route 1/4 helicopter route through the DCA airspace as a VFR route with constantly changing altitude requirements. The lowest limit is at 200 ft MSL through the area east of DCA. Any pilot will tell you that flying that low over water at night is a best a tense experience. Try not to break that limit flying at night while also trying to communicate with ATC and simultaneously searching for possible conflicting aircraft.


That's what you have to do, that's why they train. ***That's a bad place to teach those skills.***

chas wrote:
3. The United States Army Aviation Branch deems it acceptable to allow training missions for Army Reserve pilots with limited flying experience to fly these helicopter routes through this complex and extremely active airspace. Compounding this, training flights at night using night-vision goggles are deemed “safe” in spite of the fact that using said goggles severely limits peripheral vision and makes it difficult if not impossible to perceive any color other than green and white. Picking out particular lights against the background of urban lighting is challenging, as is depth perception. Scanning key cockpit instruments is also made more difficult,
...Show more

100%

chas wrote:
4. The Army crew on PAT25 are flying a mission they have been ordered to fly, at night and using night vision goggles. Although they may feel it is difficult and may be anxious about it, their command structure has determined that it is an appropriate training procedure and as such must meet minimum safety requirements. They do not have the authority to question the mission or the orders to fly it.


<shrug> That's the military. I'm on high alert whenever near a military base. Their interaction with civvies, just as on the highway or sea, is awkward, at best. Even the radios that should interop with FAA frequencies to speak to civvies are terrible. They don't fold into civilian systems well.

chas wrote:
5. JIA342 is on approach for RWY 01, but is asked at the last minute by ATC to deviate to RWY 33, requiring the “circle to land” maneuver. Therefore, they are now on approach different from what they briefed for.


Not a biggie - you can see both. You'd better be able to handle that easily if you're entrusted with 65 lives.

chas wrote:
6. Any aircraft following the “circle to land” approach to RWY 33 will most likely have both pilots focused on RWY 33 as they come out of the left turn to final, especially if it was a last-minute request by ATC. In this case they will be looking to make sure that AA1630, which has just been given clearance to depart from RWY 01, is clear of the intersection with RWY 33 as they complete their final approach, and be ready for a go-around if it is not. In addition, this left bank makes it extremely difficult for the first
...Show more

No. The RJ had no responsibility for separation (IFR). ATC has that responsibility.

The helo had asked for and received (VFR) control for separation from ATC. (It's a legal, verbal contract.) They were responsible for not hitting anything.

ATC could have been more aggressive (the tight approach over a low VFR corridor reduces the margin for error), but the helo reported that they saw the RJ.

chas wrote:
7. For whatever reason, ATC is working with “split frequencies while controlling this airspace, so that although the controller hears both the aircraft on approach and the helo traffic south-bound on “Route 1”, the pilots of those respective aircraft only hear information directed at them. Thus they are not aware of all that is going on around them, and as such their situational awareness is limited by factors outside of their control.


It might have helped the helo pilots.

chas wrote:
8. ATC informs PAT25 of the conflicting aircraft on approach for RWY 33 at 1200 feet MSL, but at the time, PAT25 is heading almost due east towards the Jefferson Memorial on Helo Route 4 while JIA342 (the CRJ) is executing its right turn departing from the RWY 01 approach and is now heading in a northeast direction as it prepares to make a hard left onto the RWY 33 short final approach. From their respective positions, PAT25 in all likelihood sees the landing lights of AA3130 which is trailing JIA342 and whose landing lights are pointed almost directly in
...Show more

Correct. The RJ's landing lights would be visible a loooong way (8-10miles out), but not so well if turned away. But the track from Wilson bridge had the RJ fairly head-on to the helo.

Also, when you're at another plane's altitude, they appear to be a bit above the horizon. No clutter. The helo, being below the RJ, would be below the horizon and easily lost in ground lights to the RJ.

chas wrote:
9. As JIA342 rolls out of its left hand turn to final on RWY 33, completing the deviation they were just handed and had not briefed for, it is now approaching the 9-11 o’clock position of PAT25. Since the pilot of PAT25 is on the right-hand side of the Blackhawk, visibility of the CRJ may be limited. Both pilots of PAT25 are now most likely visibly fixated on passing to the rear of AA3130, which is in their 1-3 O’clock position, and which is the conflicting aircraft they perceive as the one ATC initially warned them about.


Yes, there were miles between the RJ they were about to hit and the jet they must have been watching. The helo made the mistake identifying the wrong airplane. ATC should have given a firmer proximity warning, but he did ask 2x, I believe. If ATC asks twice, that's code for "are you freakin sure?" and your head should be out the window.

Incidental: Crossing the short final approach end of a very busy runway should have all heads in the helo pilots on major swivel. It's just what you do in a dangerous spot - basic training.

chas wrote:
10. ATC, now receiving a conflicting aircraft warning, asks PAT25 if they have JIA342 in sight. In the absence of any obvious difference from the first mid-identification of the conflicting traffic, confirmation bias raises its ugly head. The voice response from the training pilot is calm and confident in stating that they do have it in sight and claim visual separation, probably proving once again that he mistakenly has AA3130 in sight slightly to his right directly in front of him and more than a mile away. Both pilots are totally unaware of JIA342 which is now arriving in front
...Show more

Obviously, ATC should have been more aggressive.

-Charles


chas wrote:
11. The collision occurs.

Left out of this rant is the staffing issues at DCA. Listening to the ATC recordings, I really don't see a DEI issue as being a causality here. But the number of people on shift (or lack thereof) does play a role in creating an overtasked and fatigued workforce.


That's a really good thing to leave out.

chas wrote:
In my humble opinion, the crews of both aircraft involved were set up by both the FAA and the Army Department of Aviation through a series of poorly based decisions which focused on expediency and departed from any appropriate utilization of a rational use of risk assessment. Consider the following:

1. Approval of the circling to RWY 33 maneuver which violates normal stabilized approach standards.

2. The establishment of a series of complex VFR helicopter tracks through complex and heavily restricted air space, as well as through final approach paths.

3. A 200 foot maximum altitude requirement over water and required even at
...Show more

aboveaboveaboveabove



Feb 03, 2025 at 01:43 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1112 #2 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


I will just interject this for everyone's FYI. Not endorsing it, not "for or against it"..it is evidence of a problem. Lay the responsibility on those who had outright knowledge of "A' problem" and were in a position to "do something about it"...or at least "address the critical situation, as someone that was a ladder rung higher that "Joe Public" and he who knows nada/nothing......".

This is a "NPR" article...I am not a fan of NPR BUT there is some truth to what they are publishing and I believe even more "pressure" for workers,unions and the need for emergency workers@ATC's......take from it what you will....
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025018833/looking-back-on-when-president-reagan-fired-air-traffic-controllers
Dan



Feb 03, 2025 at 02:02 PM
RWNPhoto
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p.1112 #3 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


According to many, the entire ATC system is short on controllers, but 1000 or 1500 or whatever number.

According to someone who just started talking off the cuff, with no basis or facts, he said that they all needed to be "smart and more". Geniuses kind of. Normal people can't do that job.

So, what is it? What are you hiding Mr Prez, and what has everyone else hidden here? You either do not have the funds to HIRE the "right" amount of controllers, or you can't FIND the "right amount" of controllers (and that is with slack requirements per someone)...



Feb 03, 2025 at 06:01 PM
chas
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p.1112 #4 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel



taildraggin,
Thanks for the detailed and perceptive response. I do agree that the helo's PIC ultimately owned the ID'ing the proper aircraft, but I also believe the the system put so many holes in the swiss cheese that he was bucking the odds. If there is any one good thing that will come out of this, I think it will be strong pressure on the FAA to start listening to legitimate critics and begin reforming some of the real problem areas in the air traffic arena. We can only hope.

Chas



Feb 03, 2025 at 10:02 PM
JayDavis
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p.1112 #5 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Went out to Founder's Plaza at DFW Airport this past Sunday as the weather was absolutely gorgeous. The place was PACKED with people, not even enough parking spaces for everyone. I think the high temperature that day was 74, which is highly unusual for February.

Here's some of my favorites from that afternoon. Hope everyone is having a GREAT week!
























Feb 04, 2025 at 09:06 AM
taildraggin
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p.1112 #6 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Yessir.
In the past, their options have been to close airspace and require new tech, like TCAS.

After 9/11, small planes can’t go near DC. I used to have a great commute thru College Park airport. We now protect the pres and congress with very incomplete disruptive solutions to threats that are very small. 🤷‍♂️

chas wrote:

taildraggin,
Thanks for the detailed and perceptive response. I do agree that the helo's PIC ultimately owned the ID'ing the proper aircraft, but I also believe the the system put so many holes in the swiss cheese that he was bucking the odds. If there is any one good thing that will come out of this, I think it will be strong pressure on the FAA to start listening to legitimate critics and begin reforming some of the real problem areas in the air traffic arena. We can only hope.

Chas




Feb 04, 2025 at 10:21 AM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1112 #7 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Great analysis Steven!


Feb 04, 2025 at 04:21 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1112 #8 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Yesterday, on the spur of the moment, I took Chandler and Weston out for a day of photography. We began at the Dallas Zoo, went to Alliance for a bit and then to DFW , finishing up as the sun set . I let them choose their weapons of choice, Chandler chose the RF600/4, Weston thought that the RF100-500 might be a good choice and I shot with the RF200-800. Everyone pretty much stays with their selection for the whole day. Weston is pretty new to photography, but caught on quickly, what a great day! We are going to re-group Thursday evening around the MacBook Pro and go through what we shot.

I went through my folder last night just to see how the 200-800 did in the very low light environment at the end of the day. I gotta say, that lens is so worth having. Chandler keeps wanting to compare it to the RF600/4, and honestly, it fares pretty darn well. Certainly there are compromises or no one would drop $14,000 for the 600, the subtleties of the lens shot wide open are just sublime and make it well worth the investment for me. The RF200-800 has pretty much convinced me that there is no need to add the RF800 to my gear, all for less than the sales tax would be on the 800. I shot the last images in light so low that I needed to bump the iso to 1600 (not much of a bump in the R5II) and the images are like butter, no need for noise reduction.

Here's one from early in our adventure at the Dallas Zoo.............







Feb 04, 2025 at 04:38 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1112 #9 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Felt very blessed to be able to share a day like that with my Grandsons............







Feb 04, 2025 at 04:41 PM
gerov
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p.1112 #10 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Very nice, Jim. Both the images and the time with your grandsons. These moments are priceless.


Feb 04, 2025 at 07:28 PM
 


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Danpbphoto
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p.1112 #11 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


JWilsonphoto wrote:
Yesterday, on the spur of the moment, I took Chandler and Weston out for a day of photography. We began at the Dallas Zoo, went to Alliance for a bit and then to DFW , finishing up as the sun set . I let them choose their weapons of choice, Chandler chose the RF600/4, Weston thought that the RF100-500 might be a good choice and I shot with the RF200-800. Everyone pretty much stays with their selection for the whole day. Weston is pretty new to photography, but caught on quickly, what a great day! We are going to re-group
...Show more
Just fantastic Jim!!!!!!!
Wow the color, the cheetah's eyes...WOW!!!!
Love all wild cats!!
Most excellent!!
Dan




Feb 05, 2025 at 11:55 AM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1112 #12 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Thanks Guys!


Feb 05, 2025 at 09:00 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1112 #13 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Had a shoot this morning south of Ft. Worth, by the time I arrived the ceiling was about 40' with visibility of a half or less so it was scrubbed. Stopped by DFW on the way home............







Feb 05, 2025 at 09:02 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1112 #14 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


That look when you just know the portrait session is over...................







Feb 05, 2025 at 10:04 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1112 #15 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


AN AA 787 touching down at dusk...........







Feb 05, 2025 at 11:50 PM
Ray Swindle
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p.1112 #16 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


The sports editor sent me an assignment Monday for Wednesday, yesterday. He gave me all kinds of instructions that it needed to be a landscape shot but the composition had to be vertical. It began with 9 high school seniors who were signing college sports scholarship commitments. Then it grew to 11. He continued sending me messages about the composition and how they should be seated for a head on shot. I told him I would deliver what he wanted, but it wouldn't be a "head on" photo. Well, I could tell he was worried. I called the district PR guy who told the athletic director what I wanted to do. They had the signing in the school library where they had a lot of room. I asked if they had a ladder available so I could get an elevated shot of the large group. He told me they didn't but there was a loft. This was great.

The editor's original intent was to have the photo in a sideline column on the second or third page in the Sports Section. I was very surprised to find the photo as the center spread on the front page of the Sports Section. I used the 5DC and 24-70 lens. By the way, there were three other schools signing photos on page 3 in black and white. I guess he liked the photo.

Screenshot 2025-02-06 at 11.11.39 AM by Eddie Ray, on Flickr



Feb 06, 2025 at 12:25 PM
Bill Gass
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p.1112 #17 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


DAM...Way to go Eddie Ray...Very nice work.
They're all smiling and look great.



Feb 06, 2025 at 02:40 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1112 #18 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


JWilsonphoto wrote:
That look when you just know the portrait session is over...................

Now the "silver back" does NOT look happy at his photo being taken!!
Great capture!
Dan




Feb 06, 2025 at 02:46 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1112 #19 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Ray Swindle wrote:
The sports editor sent me an assignment Monday for Wednesday, yesterday. He gave me all kinds of instructions that it needed to be a landscape shot but the composition had to be vertical. It began with 9 high school seniors who were signing college sports scholarship commitments. Then it grew to 11. He continued sending me messages about the composition and how they should be seated for a head on shot. I told him I would deliver what he wanted, but it wouldn't be a "head on" photo. Well, I could tell he was worried. I called the district
...Show more

YES congrats Ray!!!
Well done!
Dan



Feb 06, 2025 at 02:47 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1112 #20 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Well done Eddie Ray! Most editors are so starved for quality compositions that, when they actually get them they go to the front page/cover. You have to comply with client "instructions", but my experience has been that in most cases, they really don't know what they actually need.


Feb 06, 2025 at 05:06 PM
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