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Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel

  
 
gerov
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p.1111 #1 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Douglas L wrote:
Last year, for the first time ever, the crows found out my backyard's pears and persimmons were delicious, they helped themselves with all the fruit before we could pick one. This year I may feed them some lead....
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Thank you all gentlemen! I need some bright light and clouds to make the IR pix pop! Winter is not the best time to shoot IR here due to the lack of green vegetation.

Great shot of the moon, Gero! I have seen some amazing pictures of the Milky Way but I have never tried it.

Sony is coming out with a 400-800mm
...Show more

Thanks, Doug. That was taken just outside my front door with my converted R7 - first time actually using it. I have taken some Milky Way images with my R5 and 5Dii, but have found them challenging as the AF lenses have some play past infinity, which makes it challenging. I picked up a Zeiss Distagon 21 2.8 ZE which I will try, as well as one of these Move Shoot Move trackers, which would allow me to stop down and take long exposures, and the lens has a hard stop at infinity. Something fun to play with when the galaxy comes back into view in April.

I long ago bought a Canon D60 converted to IR but it involved a fair bit of post processing. Doug, I'd be curious to know whether your conversion is B&W IR, and if not, what the workflow is.

Thanks,
Gero



Jan 31, 2025 at 06:23 PM
Douglas L
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p.1111 #2 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


gerov wrote:
Thanks, Doug. That was taken just outside my front door with my converted R7 - first time actually using it. I have taken some Milky Way images with my R5 and 5Dii, but have found them challenging as the AF lenses have some play past infinity, which makes it challenging. I picked up a Zeiss Distagon 21 2.8 ZE which I will try, as well as one of these Move Shoot Move trackers, which would allow me to stop down and take long exposures, and the lens has a hard stop at infinity. Something fun to play with when the
...Show more

My Sony IR A7III was converted to 830nm by Life Pixel, it's called "deep black IR". I just sold the Sony today because I just got my Canon R5 converted to 850nm by Korali Vision. I wanted a higher resolution IR camera and the Canon R5 is the best candidate for the conversion based on my research.

The files coming out from the 830nm or 850nm IR cameras are already black and white, but they look very flat. Some boost in dehazing and contrast, and the black slider could make the looks very dramatic. The editing is pretty simple. I think the key is to have bright light to create the contrast, and clouds to make the sky interesting. I am not a fan of color IR photography and don't want to mess around with different channels in PS, I don't have the PS skill for that anyway. So I went straight to B&W conversion.



Jan 31, 2025 at 06:59 PM
gerov
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p.1111 #3 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Douglas L wrote:
My Sony IR A7III was converted to 830nm by Life Pixel, it's called "deep black IR". I just sold the Sony today because I just got my Canon R5 converted to 850nm by Korali Vision. I wanted a higher resolution IR camera and the Canon R5 is the best candidate for the conversion based on my research.

The files coming out from the 830nm or 850nm IR cameras are already black and white, but they look very flat. Some boost in dehazing and contrast, and the black slider could make the looks very dramatic. The editing is pretty simple.
...Show more

Doug,
Thanks for the response. My D60 was not converted to B&W IR, so it is sitting in a box. I got an IR filter, but it still requires a bit more processing than what you're describing, but not over the top. IR is a lot of fun, so I look forward to more of what you will be doing with this.

Gero



Jan 31, 2025 at 07:06 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1111 #4 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


RWNPhoto wrote:
Well, the new Prez was sure full of himself today at his press conference about it, and really he should have shut his mouth. Seemed to call the ATC intelligence in to question, and that should never be tolerated.


While I agree that the timing of his rant on ATC/DEI was in very poor taste, the facts that are unfolding re:ATC are clearly pointing to slack operating procedures. One controller handling both frequencies and the tower chief allowing a controller to go home early. Someone should have been screaming at that Blackhawk as he/she traversed the airspace above the legal altitude. We managed to hire copious amounts of new IRS agents, but there is no funding for a very understaffed ATC system. I'd say harsh criticism of the FAA should not only be tolerated, it should be mandatory, just not at that moment in time.



Feb 01, 2025 at 05:40 AM
Danpbphoto
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p.1111 #5 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


JWilsonphoto wrote:
While I agree that the timing of his rant on ATC/DEI was in very poor taste, the facts that are unfolding re:ATC are clearly pointing to slack operating procedures. One controller handling both frequencies and the tower chief allowing a controller to go home early. Someone should have been screaming at that Blackhawk as he/she traversed the airspace above the legal altitude. We managed to hire copious amounts of new IRS agents, but there is no funding for a very understaffed ATC system. I'd say harsh criticism of the FAA should not only be tolerated, it should be mandatory, just
...Show more
The status of ATC's has always been wanting. I dont believe they ever had, or have, enough ATC's for the amount of air traffic at any time
.
When Pres Reagan fired all the ATC's that went on strike, I dont believe the FAA ever recovered.

DC-Beltway is a "swamp", politically and mentally! Not a detraction, the "people(residents)" are not part of the conversation just an observation over 68 years living and working here, When this tragedy 1st happened, the first "analysis" by our local media was that the female pilot was a "DEI" product!

I dont know that but I do know that making a media statement to such is downright CRAP!!! Since the "uproar" against this media statement hit, that "DEI" statement has been removed in the vocal rhetoric.
People have been asking the local tv station that started this to make an apology but they have been silent!

Just my $02! No response is necessary.
Prayers are with the families of ALL who perished!

And now with the Philly tragedy.....rampid speculation of the cause is getting pretty terrible IMHO.
Dan



Edited on Feb 01, 2025 at 02:36 PM · View previous versions



Feb 01, 2025 at 12:05 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1111 #6 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Well said Brother Dan.


Feb 01, 2025 at 02:08 PM
Ray Swindle
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p.1111 #7 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Appears to me they have too much air traffic in the DC area. While the Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) cuts military installations in the flyover space, they don't seem to look at the DC area. There should be no active military flying units within 100 miles of DC and Andrews should be reduced to Gov't support only aircraft. They already have 3 major airports around DC and several large/active general purpose airports.

One of the reasons the BRAC closed Ellington (and wanted the TxANG to move to Austin) was to allow for an extended approach and departure for Hobby Airport in Houston. They were only going to allow NASA and helicopter units to stay (USCG and Tx Army Guard).

DC is too congested and they need to move many of the HQTRs to other states away from the DC metroplex. It is crazy!



Feb 01, 2025 at 02:31 PM
RWNPhoto
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p.1111 #8 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Ray Swindle wrote:
DC is too congested and they need to move many of the HQTRs to other states away from the DC metroplex. It is crazy!


It might be congested, but so are other airports. There didn't seem to be problems for years with planes coming and going from the DC airport. Only a problem when someone flies a helicopter 100 feet ABOVE the stated altitude in the takeoff or landing paths of commercial/civilian airports. Not sure the ATC should be the ones to tell the military that they are breaking the rules. Maybe they should, but the military should know they are too.



Feb 01, 2025 at 03:10 PM
Ray Swindle
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p.1111 #9 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


For me, a 100' safety factor is not enough. 100' gives each aircraft less than a 50' margin for error. That is more of a compromise for not eliminating congestion.


Feb 01, 2025 at 05:05 PM
Bill Gass
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p.1111 #10 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


What's that flyin rule...500' above, 1000' below or something like that.
.
Our tower here is way understaffed and has been for years and not enough workers.
The one's we do have are way over worked with too long a hours.



Feb 01, 2025 at 11:00 PM
 


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JWilsonphoto
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p.1111 #11 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


I think you are thinking of cloud separation Bill. I have a good friend who flies 737's into Reagan on a regular basis, he says that there are near misses on a daily basis and that the approach routines are so stringent that the minute one aircraft deviates it's like ripples in a pond.


Feb 02, 2025 at 04:51 PM
chas
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p.1111 #12 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


I know a number of you are pilots, and I am not. But I have always been highly interested in aviation, and have read and studied for decades on numerous aviation topics. Regarding the collision of American Eagle JIA342 and Army Blackhawk PAT25, I lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of both the FAA and the United States Army Aviation Branch. If the NTSB in any way blame the pilots in the incident, they are not doing their job. Let’s look at all of the holes in this swiss cheese:

1. In an effort to maximize commercial air traffic in and out of DCA, the FAA has created the “deviate to RWY 33 procedure” for air traffic in-bound to RWY 01. This requires a right-hand turn from the RWY 01 approach followed by an immediate hard left-hand turn to line up on RWY 33. FAA criteria for a stabilized approach states that you have to be stable at 500 feet AGL on final in VMC or perform an immediate go-around. But on this particular approach, you will be at or below 400 feet AGL as you come out of the left turn to final. So the FAA has granted an exception to the “stabilized requirements” at DCA to allow for this maneuver. This allows ATC to shorten the distance between arriving and departing aircraft that are utilizing conflicting RWYs. The FAA in essence violates its own safety standards on stabilized approaches for the sake of expediency.

2. The FAA creates the Route 1/4 helicopter route through the DCA airspace as a VFR route with constantly changing altitude requirements. The lowest limit is at 200 ft MSL through the area east of DCA. Any pilot will tell you that flying that low over water at night is a best a tense experience. Try not to break that limit flying at night while also trying to communicate with ATC and simultaneously searching for possible conflicting aircraft.

3. The United States Army Aviation Branch deems it acceptable to allow training missions for Army Reserve pilots with limited flying experience to fly these helicopter routes through this complex and extremely active airspace. Compounding this, training flights at night using night-vision goggles are deemed “safe” in spite of the fact that using said goggles severely limits peripheral vision and makes it difficult if not impossible to perceive any color other than green and white. Picking out particular lights against the background of urban lighting is challenging, as is depth perception. Scanning key cockpit instruments is also made more difficult, making it challenging to accurately maintain altitude. Add to that workload the need to be in constant communication with ATC as well as monitoring all other comms traffic not directed to you but necessary in order to maintain good situational awareness. Given the density of commercial air traffic on this route, common sense would dictate that this route be flown by only the most experienced pilots and only when absolutely necessary. Reasonable logic would understand that conducting training missions should not be using final approach areas with heavy commercial traffic.

4. The Army crew on PAT25 are flying a mission they have been ordered to fly, at night and using night vision goggles. Although they may feel it is difficult and may be anxious about it, their command structure has determined that it is an appropriate training procedure and as such must meet minimum safety requirements. They do not have the authority to question the mission or the orders to fly it.

5. JIA342 is on approach for RWY 01, but is asked at the last minute by ATC to deviate to RWY 33, requiring the “circle to land” maneuver. Therefore, they are now on approach different from what they briefed for.

6. Any aircraft following the “circle to land” approach to RWY 33 will most likely have both pilots focused on RWY 33 as they come out of the left turn to final, especially if it was a last-minute request by ATC. In this case they will be looking to make sure that AA1630, which has just been given clearance to depart from RWY 01, is clear of the intersection with RWY 33 as they complete their final approach, and be ready for a go-around if it is not. In addition, this left bank makes it extremely difficult for the first officer to see any conflicting traffic coming towards them from the 1 to 2 o’clock position, as that traffic will probably be below the right window level. For the pilot, who is on the left side of the cockpit, visibility of such conflicting traffic will be nearly impossible.

7. For whatever reason, ATC is working with “split frequencies while controlling this airspace, so that although the controller hears both the aircraft on approach and the helo traffic south-bound on “Route 1”, the pilots of those respective aircraft only hear information directed at them. Thus they are not aware of all that is going on around them, and as such their situational awareness is limited by factors outside of their control.

8. ATC informs PAT25 of the conflicting aircraft on approach for RWY 33 at 1200 feet MSL, but at the time, PAT25 is heading almost due east towards the Jefferson Memorial on Helo Route 4 while JIA342 (the CRJ) is executing its right turn departing from the RWY 01 approach and is now heading in a northeast direction as it prepares to make a hard left onto the RWY 33 short final approach. From their respective positions, PAT25 in all likelihood sees the landing lights of AA3130 which is trailing JIA342 and whose landing lights are pointed almost directly in his direction, and mistakenly identifies it as the aircraft approaching RWY 33. At no time does it appear that ATC notifies JIA342 of the conflicting helo traffic. They are most likely focused on their approach to RWY 33, which was just handed to them.

9. As JIA342 rolls out of its left hand turn to final on RWY 33, completing the deviation they were just handed and had not briefed for, it is now approaching the 9-11 o’clock position of PAT25. Since the pilot of PAT25 is on the right-hand side of the Blackhawk, visibility of the CRJ may be limited. Both pilots of PAT25 are now most likely visibly fixated on passing to the rear of AA3130, which is in their 1-3 O’clock position, and which is the conflicting aircraft they perceive as the one ATC initially warned them about.

10. ATC, now receiving a conflicting aircraft warning, asks PAT25 if they have JIA342 in sight. In the absence of any obvious difference from the first mid-identification of the conflicting traffic, confirmation bias raises its ugly head. The voice response from the training pilot is calm and confident in stating that they do have it in sight and claim visual separation, probably proving once again that he mistakenly has AA3130 in sight slightly to his right directly in front of him and more than a mile away. Both pilots are totally unaware of JIA342 which is now arriving in front of them from their left.

11. The collision occurs.

Left out of this rant is the staffing issues at DCA. Listening to the ATC recordings, I really don't see a DEI issue as being a causality here. But the number of people on shift (or lack thereof) does play a role in creating an overtasked and fatigued workforce.

In my humble opinion, the crews of both aircraft involved were set up by both the FAA and the Army Department of Aviation through a series of poorly based decisions which focused on expediency and departed from any appropriate utilization of a rational use of risk assessment. Consider the following:

1. Approval of the circling to RWY 33 maneuver which violates normal stabilized approach standards.

2. The establishment of a series of complex VFR helicopter tracks through complex and heavily restricted air space, as well as through final approach paths.

3. A 200 foot maximum altitude requirement over water and required even at night, which may result in a less than 200 foot vertical separation between aircraft on approach to RWY 33 and those traveling on Helo Route 1/4. (again, try maintaining level flight under 200 MSL over water at night, and then concentrate on everything else!)

4. The decision to conduct military training missions in this complex and busy airspace with an abundance of commercial passenger traffic either arriving to or departing from DCA.

5. The use of split frequencies by the FAA which negatively impacts the situational awareness of all of the pilots in the airspace.

6. The use of night vision goggles to place even more limitations on the pilots.

Granted, all pilots involved may not have had the thousands of hours senior commercial and military pilot possess. But even the most senior individuals when placed in the task saturated environments these two crews faced would have at the very least felt their “pucker factor” increase through this. And there is probably an equal chance that the lack of common sense and appropriate safety design exhibited by the controlling entities would have resulted in a similar outcome. The odds were significantly stacked against these two flight crews, and unfortunately, against the passengers and flight attendants as well. If ever there were an example of an accident waiting to happen, this is it.

Respectfully, Chas




Feb 02, 2025 at 08:32 PM
gerov
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p.1111 #13 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Interesting analysis, Chas, and it looks like you've done some serious homework. What strikes me is that they would have an aircraft divert over an active Air Force base directly across the river from DCA, and that they wouldn't have the helicopters divert over the city once they've passed an axis from the White House to the river to avoid such traffic. From my office in DC, I have observed a significant amount of helicopter traffic headed towards Bolling AFB, coming and going.

A number of helo flights do divert, but why would you send a training flight at night straight down the river??



Feb 02, 2025 at 08:45 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1111 #14 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Very well stated Chas and Gero.....Many people forget about Bolling AFB...It is a heavily trafficked heli port for "official"(USGovt& military).
When at the Pentagon most, if not ALL, of Pentagon air traffic comes from Bolling.
See here, Sec of Defense circling the Pentagon to land! The flight path for MOST, if not all, helos(Military) is "along" the Potomac.
Dan
And I will mention this again from experience with night vision goggles, one's vision is greatly impaired peripherally and amount of light being observed thru them! Chas your #3 notes that and I concur that 100%. Newer versions have an array(image intensifier tube) that presents a far brighter and clearer observation than the one's I used in combat.







Feb 03, 2025 at 11:42 AM
Ray Swindle
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p.1111 #15 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Danpbphoto wrote:
Very well stated Chas and Gero.....Many people forget about Bolling AFB...It is a heavily trafficked heli port for "official"(USGovt& military).
When at the Pentagon most, if not ALL, of Pentagon air traffic comes from Bolling.
See here, Sec of Defense circling the Pentagon to land! The flight path for MOST, if not all, helos(Military) is "along" the Potomac.
Dan
And I will mention this again from experience with night vision goggles, one's vision is greatly impaired peripherally and amount of light being observed thru them! Chas your #3 notes that and I concur that 100%. Newer versions have an array(image intensifier tube) that presents
...Show more

Bolling helicopter activity should be shut down. The "Gold Tops" should be shut down. The generals can use ground transportation within the area. Bolliing is not worth the hazard it creates. If the generals require job related air transportation they can fly commercial or use Andrews. We are no longer a wealthy nation, we are over $36 trillion in debt.



Feb 03, 2025 at 12:09 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1111 #16 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


"RHIP" Eddie Ray!
But who are we but the "pocket book" for these people.??
Dan



Feb 03, 2025 at 12:16 PM
Ray Swindle
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p.1111 #17 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Danpbphoto wrote:
"RHIP" Eddie Ray!
But who are we but the "pocket book" for these people.??
Dan


RHIP needs to find its way to "file 13". We are broke. There is no reason to spend $10k for a general to fly to a meeting 30 minutes away. Generals are not that important.

Edited on Feb 03, 2025 at 12:35 PM · View previous versions



Feb 03, 2025 at 12:27 PM
gerov
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p.1111 #18 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


There was an interesting video from the Wall Street Journal on YouTube that I watched this morning that talked about pilot concern with this corridor, and it mapped out the various helicopter flight paths on the Potomac, Anacostia rivers as well as over and across to the Pentagon. It then superimposed the flight path of the helicopter involved in the crash. Anything but a straight line.

?si=86UIO7DVxa9hNlxv" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Video



Feb 03, 2025 at 12:29 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1111 #19 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Ray Swindle wrote:
RHIP needs to find its way to "file 13". We are broke. There is no reason to spend $10k for a general to fly to a meeting 30 minutes away. Generals are not that important.

Oh don't get me wrong "ER"...I agree 100% and this sentiment has been ongoing since my daze of 1970-2009. Some of which was military service. This is not new or even past..it is OLD!!! Their ears are on "MUTE".
Dan




Feb 03, 2025 at 01:35 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1111 #20 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


gerov wrote:
There was an interesting video from the Wall Street Journal on YouTube that I watched this morning that talked about pilot concern with this corridor, and it mapped out the various helicopter flight paths on the Potomac, Anacostia rivers as well as over and across to the Pentagon. It then superimposed the flight path of the helicopter involved in the crash. Anything but a straight line.

?si=86UIO7DVxa9hNlxv" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Video

And just some first hand info, albeit, how ever trivial or "firsthand"(?)....Ears on "Mute"..They KNOW, knew, ( and this "know" is all encompassing entities-person(s) to organization/department) the problem is there...just sayin'...who am I or were..,



Edited on Feb 03, 2025 at 01:46 PM · View previous versions



Feb 03, 2025 at 01:39 PM
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