Canon is doing what Canon does best in the DSLR market. Canon has for the past several years has either aggressively pushed the price of DSLRs down (10D, 20D, DRebel), aggressively pushed the technology of DSLRs (FF, CMOS), or defined new categories (D30, 5D).
With the 5D, you can say Canon is now doing two out of the 3. they are aggressively pushing the price of DSLRs down (where else can you get a FF DSLR for $3300?) and defined a new category of DSLRs (consumer FF DSLRs) just as they did with the D30 (first consumer class DSLR).
Whether the 5D is suited for you or not, I can't believe people aren't amazed by what Canon is doing. Yes, Canon did cut corners to keep the price down. I'm sure the new AF is probably cheaper for Canon since it has fewer AF points to manage than the 45 point AF of the 1series (except 1D Mk II N). And Canon uses the same Digic II chip as in the 20D (I based this on the raw bandwidth calculations).
Guy Mancuso wrote:
Budda hate to ask you questions but how was the LCD screen
Nooo it's fine, i was one of the few rare people that got the chance to lay his hands on such amazing cameras. It was funny, I was looking at dpreview and said to myself "I am going to the PhotoExpo in September for sure in order to put my hands on these cameras" and what do you know, the next day... lol
It was AWESOME actually. The LCD screens, since both of them were new (as in on the 5D and -N each), we just astounding! The 5D didn't have a CF card in it, so I couldn't look at any old shots, but damn, it so great having the full 2.5" (or whatever the exact measurement was) of viewing on it. And I know this sounds kinda just elementary, but it honestly was great, to answer your question. What else did you need to know about it?
DaveEP wrote:
Not sure why you expected 1 series quality for less than 1 series pricing. Clearly that was never going to happen, and if you thought it would, you were a fool.
as a 1Ds2 owner, I am not unhappy with Canon regarding the 5D. On the contrary, I think this is a great new camera.
I also look forward to seeing the 'quality' reviews of the 5D and the 24-105.
Semiconductor production is a LOT more expensive than most people think. This will not be an extra $10 to make......
Didn't your momma tell you it isn't nice to call people fools!
It could be that Arhi is thinking the same thing a lot of 1D II owners are, why isn't this sensor in the second pro body as well as the 5D? I'm sure the 5D will sell very well, it has all the res. I wanted when I was shooting my 20D and now when I'm shooting my 1D II. The problem is Canon left a lot of pros w/ 1D II's on the outside looking in with this. Shooters who don't want to trade, build, superior AF, and handling for FF and don't want to take out a loan for a Ds II.
That's Canon's perogative, but it isn't going to sell 5D 's to those people, or DIIN's, or DsII's unless there's a price drop. Maybe Canon is working on processing 12.8 MP info fast enough to keep the frame rate up and will update the DIIN when they've solved the problem. Maybe the merged 1 series is relatively close and will arrive at a sane price. I'm hoping.
calvillo wrote:
...
It could be that Arhi is thinking the same thing a lot of 1D II owners are, why isn't this sensor in the second pro body as well as the 5D? I'm sure the 5D will sell very well, it has all the res. I wanted when I was shooting my 20D and now when I'm shooting my 1D II. The problem is Canon left a lot of pros w/ 1D II's on the outside looking in with this. Shooters who don't want to trade, build, superior AF, and handling for FF and don't want to take out a loan for a Ds II. ...Show more →
BUT almost everything in photography is a trade of one thing against another. TANSTAFL. If you want FF, 1 series build etc then you've got to bite the bullet and fork out for a 1DsII. At some point in the future the 1 series will all have a FF sensor (or will be just one body) but until then you need to ballance crop, capability and price against each other when choosing a camera.
its a significant upgrade...were talking a ff sensor here arhi. all of us wideangle shooters that have been limited by 1.6 and 1.3 crop cameras now have a affordable way to get our beloved wa capability back. i want my lens focal lengths to behave in the way they were designed and ff gives me that and i like to go wide wide and ff is the only option that gives me that
steve_t wrote:
BUT almost everything in photography is a trade of one thing against another. TANSTAFL. If you want FF, 1 series build etc then you've got to bite the bullet and fork out for a 1DsII. At some point in the future the 1 series will all have a FF sensor (or will be just one body) but until then you need to ballance crop, capability and price against each other when choosing a camera.
So it's not possible to put the FF/12.8 in the 1DIIN for $4,500 - $5,000?
I don't know about your business, but $8K for ONE piece of a good sized puzzle is an absurd concept to me. Canon made a decision here. They either wanted to keep FF professional very expensive, I would say artificially expensive, or they need the Digic III to do the required processing to maintain a high fps, and the chip isn't ready.
Not knocking the camera, I loved my 20 D. I just don't want a primary camera with one set of handling/performance characteristics and a backup with another set of characteristics. Canon deserve beau coup credit for what they've done with digital imaging, that said why not the same sensor in the 1D IIN?
Edited by Jeff on Aug 24, 2005 at 06:53 PM GMT (Reason: quotes for clarity)
calvillo wrote:
So it's not possible to put the FF/12.8 in the 1DIIN for $4,500 - $5,000?
At this moment probably not. It's not just the cost of the sensor (which is a huge proportion of the cost of a DSLR), but also the development resources needed to do it. The IIN needed relatively small amounts of effort to implement compared to the 5D. I'd guess that the new sensor in the 5D is being used as a test bed for an uprated version to be used in a future 1 series camera, but that's a little way off yet.
calvillo wrote:
I don't know about your business, but $8K for ONE piece of a good sized puzzle is an absurd concept to me.
Its all relative though. Ive known people who would consider a $4k DSLR absurd and feel they are doing well in their business with a Drebel and Ive even known one guy who used a P&S. Did real estate VR work mostly and some product shoots. He made a living so I guess it worked for him
At the same time, I know one commercial shooter who's buying a $20K Phase One MF back and thinks nothing of it. For his clients and fee's the price to performance ratio works out just fine.
Most pro shooters are right in the middle and a $8k investment fits into their business models nicely. A good number of the pro shooters on this forum make use of the !ds mkII so I cant, and I dont canon would either, consider it absurd. They seem to be selling pretty well in fact and Im sure theres a great margin in there which Canon has got to love. If the margin wasnt being met, they'd lower the price Im sure and hope for more sales but at the current price point/volume, I think they are maximizing their return.
Thats really the key, canon is a business we must all remember. They will give as little as possible, for the highest price possible, while still maximizing sales. These prices arent just random, they are carefully set and monitored by a huges sales/marketing dept.
Gibbonx wrote:
The question in my mind is ... how much better image quality would you expect from a 5D + 17-40/16-35 and a 20D + 10-22? The wideangle argument doesn't hold much water in my eyes.
I definitely wouldn't pay twice the price of a 20D for a fullframe version. I have to admit I'm a bit disappointed - not with the camera, but because it just doesn't give me enough reason to upgrade.
16mm on FF isnt NEARLY as distorted as 10mm on 1.6X
Laika wrote:
What disappoints me is the new grip. I was hoping it to be more like the PB-E2 for EOS-1V &-3. The current digicam grips feel a bit flimsy and you can't remove batteries if you have a QR plate attached.
If I am not mistaken the new grip on the 5D is similar to the one found on the 20D and it is possible to replace the batteries with a QR plate attached. At least if you get one from Really Right Stuff or similar...
steve_t wrote:
At this moment probably not. It's not just the cost of the sensor (which is a huge proportion of the cost of a DSLR), but also the development resources needed to do it. The IIN needed relatively small amounts of effort to implement compared to the 5D. I'd guess that the new sensor in the 5D is being used as a test bed for an uprated version to be used in a future 1 series camera, but that's a little way off yet.
Aside from the costs associated with changing over to a different sensor in the 1DII, I'd guess that there is another problem with trying to put that sensor into the 1DII. I'm guessing that today's image processing technology would not be able to handle 12.8 mp file sizes and still allow for 8 fps, a 20 shot RAW buffer, etc. I'm don't know how close Canon is to being able to do so, but it is also why I would guess that a combined 1-series, whenever it comes, will have a crop mode with reduced resolution but high frame rate, etc.
Les
The Big Bad wrote:
Its all relative though. Ive known people who would consider a $4k DSLR absurd and feel they are doing well in their business with a Drebel and Ive even known one guy who used a P&S. Did real estate VR work mostly and some product shoots. He made a living so I guess it worked for him
At the same time, I know one commercial shooter who's buying a $20K Phase One MF back and thinks nothing of it. For his clients and fee's the price to performance ratio works out just fine.
Most pro shooters are right in the middle and a $8k investment fits into their business models nicely. A good number of the pro shooters on this forum make use of the !ds mkII so I cant, and I dont canon would either, consider it absurd. They seem to be selling pretty well in fact and Im sure theres a great margin in there which Canon has got to love. If the margin wasnt being met, they'd lower the price Im sure and hope for more sales but at the current price point/volume, I think they are maximizing their return.
Thats really the key, canon is a business we must all remember. They will give as little as possible, for the highest price possible, while still maximizing sales. These prices arent just random, they are carefully set and monitored by a huges sales/marketing dept. ...Show more →
How can you speak for "most pro shooters"?
Of course Canon is a business and wants to maximize profit, that's the point. That's what I meant when I said they're keeping prices artificially high! You're also right that as long as the 1Ds II is selling for $8K, Canon will be happy to keep that price.
As far as "absurd" is concerned, that is subjective. Canon is the only game in town, they can price at whatever they want and not have to worry about what the competition is doing as there pretty much is none. It's simple economics, when there isn't robust competition, prices are high, when there's healthy competition/consumer choice prices are lower.
Photographers in general face increased costs from everything from rent, to gas, to gear prices, and with digital just starting to mature, we've had to upgrade more often because equipment life/depreciation is much shorter. At the same time many clients are arguing about usage pricing/copyright, and fees in general are at best stagnant. I'm a Canon user and think they've done a fantastic job with their digital product, that said, I think they're taking advantage of a non-competitive situation and photographers take it in the shorts...again.
My initial feeling was disappointing, mainly for lack of 5 fps speed and 45-focus points. However, the more I look at the 5D, the more I like it. The two determining factors are the sensor size and the FF. The 5D has 56% more pixels than the 20D. FF makes my lenses more versatile. I cannot justify having the 1Ds2. Neither can I without the 5D for another year. Life is too short.
calvillo wrote:
How can you speak for "most pro shooters"?
Well given that fact that I make my living in photography, I associate daily with a wide variety of other pro shooters either in my profession work, friendships or even just from this forum, I feel that gives me at least a decent understanding of the needs and issues that face a working pro in this day and age.
I certainly wouldnt say "all" pro shooters and Im not making a claim that what works for me works for others, but I think my statement is fairly accurate for, as I said, "most" professionals
How many weather sealed DSLRs are there in the world, anyway? I'm pretty sure there are only two cameras so advertised, and they are only weathersealed when used with weathersealed lenses.
Is everything else dogmeat?
When I was a kid, back when CARE stood for "Cooperative for American Remittances to Europe," I was admonished by my grandmother, "Eat all your beans...there are children starving in Europe." I didn't quite grasp what eating my beans was going to do for starving kids in Europe--I really wished my grandmother would just send the damned beans to Europe.
Her point was that beans aren't caviar, but there's nothing wrong with 'em, and they beat the heck out of what most people in the world had to eat.
There is nothing at all wrong with the 5D (barring bugs). It may not be everyone's favorite dish, but there is nothing wrong with it, and nothing beating it for what it is at anything near the price.
