Fred Miranda wrote:
Yep! Bill Claff's data on Photons to Photos shows that while cameras like the SL3/Q3 apply baked-in raw noise reduction at high ISOs to smooth over phase-detection AF artifacts, the M11 shows no such filtering. This is speculated to be because its sensor completely lacks PDAF pixels (which makes total sense to me, even if Leica never officially confirmed it), the camera has no missing pixel gaps to fill in, while allows the M11 to deliver a completely unfiltered, pure raw output with predictable noise characteristics across its entire ISO range (especially high ISO), giving it cleaner high ISO performance than pretty much any AF mirrorless body out there....Show more →
That was my thinking as well. We have some circumstantial evidence that Leica is treating the sensors differently via processing, but we have no evidence that the M11 has PDAF.
I think in any case, everyone would agree that Leica should have used the SL3/PDAF version of the 60mp sensor in the M-EV1 and used the PDAF data to allow for manual focus confirmation like we have with recent Canon/Nikon cameras.
wolfloid wrote:
I completely agree. I’m also fed up with all the apologists for weaknesses that should never have been released.
This was the original comment: “ My only complaint is the sluggish viewfinder delay”. Of course immediacy is not always needed, but when it is . . .
This is not acceptable in a camera consistently touted as the finest tool for capturing the moment. I don’t get it in my M246 or my Sony A7rIV.
Blind brand loyalty is everywhere...PC vs. Mac, iphone/android, cars, politics, and especially cameras. People pick a side and defend it regardless of the facts.
Take the M11's startup lag: waking the camera from standby or turning it on takes roughly 3 seconds before it actually lets you take a shot. In street or documentary photography, three seconds is a lifetime. By the time you take your picture, the moment is gone. Yet instead of pushing Leica to fix it, apologists defend it with excuses like, "Just leave the camera on and never let it go to sleep. This camera has an improved battery..." Rather than criticizing a genuine flaw in a camera we actually love so Leica will make it better, people choose unconditional loyalty over constructive feedback.
Camera companies are no different from politicians and theologians in reacting very badly to any criticism. Forums are a strange place where anything but positive comments can start flame wars or cause offence. YouTube is another outlet where influencers are quick to delete, filter out, or ban commenters that affect their egos or sponsorships.
Turn on delay sucks, but is likely set in stone by architectural constraints in part from lacking economy of scale.
If the general purpose processor must sequentially load an operating system, and then firmware into peripheral devices such as the Fujitsu image processor, then this will take time ( can be very slow if multiple devices hang off a common JTAG chain ). I suspect and the likes of Nikon has engineered their custom image processing ASIC with either on board or a directly connected flash memory ( the ZR turns on almost instantly).
From what I’ve heard Leica now recognises they must in the future invest proportionally more in electronics and software than in optical development ; finding the investment to do this without destroying the company seems like a challenge.
I will defend the EV1 for breaking ground, and it would have been quite revolutionary if launched three years ago, but now there is so much catching up to do. The struggle will get worse if we see a Nikon ZS or Fuji X-Pro4. On the SL side the SL3-P needs the S1II ( no R) like video centric SL3-SP - not heard a whisper of that happening.
The next few years are going to be tough for them. Stacked sensors require a new processor architecture, which needs to address both turn on times, data throughput, and pattern recognition.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Blind brand loyalty is everywhere...PC vs. Mac, iphone/android, cars, politics, and especially cameras. People pick a side and defend it regardless of the facts.
Take the M11's startup lag: waking the camera from standby or turning it on takes roughly 3 seconds before it actually lets you take a shot. In street or documentary photography, three seconds is a lifetime. By the time you take your picture, the moment is gone. Yet instead of pushing Leica to fix it, apologists defend it with excuses like, "Just leave the camera on and never let it go to sleep. This camera has an improved battery..." Rather than criticizing a genuine flaw in a camera we actually love so Leica will make it better, people choose unconditional loyalty over constructive feedback....Show more →
We both remember the Canon forum times when higher MP FF sensors tagged along by Nikon and then later implemented in Sony's FF MLCs....that was probably the worst I have ever seen forum members defending "their" brand. I was told at the time as response "People love their gear". I hand it back now
Fred Miranda wrote:
Blind brand loyalty is everywhere...PC vs. Mac, iphone/android, cars, politics, and especially cameras. People pick a side and defend it regardless of the facts.
Take the M11's startup lag: waking the camera from standby or turning it on takes roughly 3 seconds before it actually lets you take a shot. In street or documentary photography, three seconds is a lifetime. By the time you take your picture, the moment is gone. Yet instead of pushing Leica to fix it, apologists defend it with excuses like, "Just leave the camera on and never let it go to sleep. This camera has an improved battery..." Rather than criticizing a genuine flaw in a camera we actually love so Leica will make it better, people choose unconditional loyalty over constructive feedback....Show more →
If we're being honest, many of us had Stockholm syndrome from M11 freezes that weren't fixed until years after release. If they hadn't been using so many resources to identify and fix the freezing issues, maybe they could have devoted more resources toward firmware boot up efficiency.
I think the M-EV1 was a miss not just because it doesn't have modern manual focusing aids, but because it didn't get the new processor from the Q3/SL3. That alone would have probably cut the startup time dramatically and justified keeping the cost in line with the rangefinder versions (and probably fixed EVF lag).
highdesertmesa wrote:
If we're being honest, many of us had Stockholm syndrome from M11 freezes that weren't fixed until years after release. If they hadn't been using so many resources to identify and fix the freezing issues, maybe they could have devoted more resources toward firmware boot up efficiency.
I think the M-EV1 was a miss not just because it doesn't have modern manual focusing aids, but because it didn't get the new processor from the Q3/SL3. That alone would have probably cut the startup time dramatically and justified keeping the cost in line with the rangefinder versions (and probably fixed EVF lag).
As you say, the SL3 series has a newer processor and strong feature set, but that doesn't translate to fast tethered/import downloads on macOS. (The faster processor is definitely a plus for other features...). But for image transferring, card readers remain the practical path for bulk offload. I'd like to know if Leica considers slow Image Capture / PTP pulls on SL3/SL3-S a known limitation and whether a firmware improvement is planned. The best USB PTP implementation by far is on the M11 series including the M EV1.
Fred Miranda wrote:
As you say, the SL3 series has a newer processor and strong feature set, but that doesn't translate to fast tethered/import downloads on macOS. (The faster processor is definitely a plus for other features...). But for image transferring, card readers remain the practical path for bulk offload. I'd like to know if Leica considers slow Image Capture / PTP pulls on SL3/SL3-S a known limitation and whether a firmware improvement is planned. The best USB PTP implementation by far is on the M11 series including the M EV1.
Have you tried the Mass Storage or Apple MFi options instead of PTP for the SL3-S?
highdesertmesa wrote:
Have you tried the Mass Storage or Apple MFi options instead of PTP for the SL3-S?
Thanks for pointing that out! Mass Storage mode is great because it mounts the camera directly as an external drive..just like using an SD card reader. While transfer speeds are significantly faster in this mode, you do lose tethering capabilities, live camera information, and certain camera control settings, but yep it's faster than PTP on the SL3.
As for Apple MFi mode, that's strictly for wired connections directly to an iPhone or iPad (via the iOS Photos app or Leica FOTOS). It isn't used for PC or Mac workflows. With new phones with USB-C I don't even think Leica will continue offering MFi mode in upcoming cameras.
