German labour costs and excellent working conditions, relatively small production runs to recoup r.o.i, all from a company that are posting healthy profits. It was never going to be a bargain. Classic Western dilemma and contradiction - we all want to work for good rates of pay but it hurts when we make a choice that costs us personally. I doubt the component costs are the issue between M rangefinder and M EV it’ll be everything else. When I was using Nikon cameras I think the Z’s were made in Vietnam or Thailand not Japan. Wonder how much the bodies would have cost if made in Japan!
Nielk Mike wrote:
The price for the M series is high - and I always justified it because of the rangefinder OVF. The M-EV is basically no different from the Q - but comes without a lens. What justifies the price?
stgrove wrote:
I often see some newish EV1 selling used for under $8k and some closer to $7k when it means one could try it and still sell for around the same price if not wanted.
Saw a used one for sale here in Vienna for 6500 euro.
Beagle64 wrote:
German labour costs and excellent working conditions, relatively small production runs to recoup r.o.i, all from a company that are posting healthy profits. It was never going to be a bargain. Classic Western dilemma and contradiction - we all want to work for good rates of pay but it hurts when we make a choice that costs us personally. I doubt the component costs are the issue between M rangefinder and M EV it’ll be everything else. When I was using Nikon cameras I think the Z’s were made in Vietnam or Thailand not Japan. Wonder how much the bodies would have cost if made in Japan!
I returned my first attempt with the EV-1 but decided to get it again and now love it. Take it out over my m11 or Nikon Zf. I find it to be quick and intuitive to use. My only complaint is the sluggish viewfinder delay so I get the moment after what I think I am shooting. But it's not detrimental to most shots. I find the form factor and simplicity to beat other mirror less cameras, like the Zf.
ovredal73 wrote:
I returned my first attempt with the EV-1 but decided to get it again and now love it. Take it out over my m11 or Nikon Zf. I find it to be quick and intuitive to use. My only complaint is the sluggish viewfinder delay so I get the moment after what I think I am shooting. But it's not detrimental to most shots. I find the form factor and simplicity to beat other mirror less cameras, like the Zf.
The ‘almost decisive moment’?
Is every moment you photograph dependent on the precise timing of the decisive moment? But yes it's a flaw in the camera for sure. Have you used it?
I haven't noticed EVF lag with my M EV1, but it is early days with the camera. I am familiar with the issue. My first EVF camera, the Nikon 1 V1, had so much viewfinder lag that the only way I could capture the moment was to use both eyes. My right eye would look through the EVF and maintain the composition while the left eye would be on the subject. I would release the shutter based on the left eye view. Took a bit of practice, but worked well.
Luke_Miller wrote:
I haven't noticed EVF lag with my M EV1, but it is early days with the camera. I am familiar with the issue. My first EVF camera, the Nikon 1 V1, had so much viewfinder lag that the only way I could capture the moment was to use both eyes. My right eye would look through the EVF and maintain the composition while the left eye would be on the subject. I would release the shutter based on the left eye view. Took a bit of practice, but worked well.
I was actually just reading how adjusting the resolution down to 36mp or even more so (of course) to 18mp will help and at 18mp solve the problem almost completely if you can live with an 18mp resolution. I used to have it at 36 but bumped it up to full resolution more recently and yes I only really started noticing the (still tiny) viewfinder delay. So back to 36. 18 I feel is too low. 36 is a sweet spot for many reasons anyway.
ovredal73 wrote:
I was actually just reading how adjusting the resolution down to 36mp or even more so (of course) to 18mp will help and at 18mp solve the problem almost completely if you can live with an 18mp resolution. I used to have it at 36 but bumped it up to full resolution more recently and yes I only really started noticing the (still tiny) viewfinder delay. So back to 36. 18 I feel is too low. 36 is a sweet spot for many reasons anyway.
If you bump it all the way down to 0 and never use it, the lag disappears completely!
For the Leica M11, Leica contracted Sony Semiconductor Solutions to produce a hybrid that does not exist in Sony's public catalog: a full RGB color sensor that completely omits the PDAF microlens masking and pixel circuitry. Because it is a bespoke order, its internal industrial item number remains a closely guarded corporate secret between Sony and Leica. Rather than pulling a standard IMX455AQK from the shelf, Sony uses a modified lithography mask at their foundry during the wafer fabrication phase to print clean imaging pixels across the entire grid before fusing it with Leica's proprietary ultra-thin cover glass and specialized offset edge-microlenses. ...Show more →
Google? Or Gemini?
If the former, please provide the link.
If the latter, jesus man do you know what an LLM is?
ovredal73 wrote:
I was actually just reading how adjusting the resolution down to 36mp or even more so (of course) to 18mp will help and at 18mp solve the problem almost completely if you can live with an 18mp resolution. I used to have it at 36 but bumped it up to full resolution more recently and yes I only really started noticing the (still tiny) viewfinder delay. So back to 36. 18 I feel is too low. 36 is a sweet spot for many reasons anyway.
If you treat the EV1 like a digital M6 you’ll not notice the lag, or rather you’ll soon learn to adjust so it’s not an issue. With ay M we’ve always needed to learn the shutter throw and depth plus the tiny delay until the shutter opens. Film. Digital. Always the same.
Having said that the simple addition of EFCS to all Leica cameras could literally halve the shutter lag overnight.
flash wrote:
If you treat the EV1 like a digital M6 you’ll not notice the lag, or rather you’ll soon learn to adjust so it’s not an issue. With ay M we’ve always needed to learn the shutter throw and depth plus the tiny delay until the shutter opens. Film. Digital. Always the same.
Having said that the simple addition of EFCS to all Leica cameras could literally halve the shutter lag overnight.
Gordon
With the EV1 the additional display lag really seems to hurt the latency; still I have managed about a 40% success rate while panning vintage cars at a local hill climb event. But this required releasing the shutter the instant the nose of the car appears on the EVF. Any car that can accelerate faster than a 1970's 911 and I have zero chance of capturing it in frame; with a M10, previously I could track such cars. I skipped the M11 so cannot comment on it's OVF/shutter latency.
ovredal73 wrote:
Whats the purpose of this comment?
Because the apologism is absurd. The EV1 should represent the M line stepping into modernity with all the goodies that offers. Instead it's met with asterisks like "just shoot your 61mp camera at 18mp" or "just treat it like an M6".
The camera and defenses of it in that fashion deserve some level of derision.
If the former, please provide the link.
If the latter, jesus man do you know what an LLM is?
My brother in Crisco, I literally said Google (“it’s the same picture”). If it’s really important, just email Leica support and ask. Even better, email Bill Claff and ask why he sees no noise reduction for the M11 sensor (to mask the PDAF pixels) like is shown for the SL3 at over ISO 6400 and the Q3 at over ISO 25K.
RoamingScott wrote:
Because the apologism is absurd. The EV1 should represent the M line stepping into modernity with all the goodies that offers. Instead it's met with asterisks like "just shoot your 61mp camera at 18mp" or "just treat it like an M6".
The camera and defenses of it in that fashion deserve some level of derision.
If you’ve followed Leica for more than a minute, one might call your (logical) assumption absurd
highdesertmesa wrote:
My brother in Crisco, I literally said Google (“it’s the same picture”). If it’s really important, just email Leica support and ask. Even better, email Bill Claff and ask why he sees no noise reduction for the M11 sensor (to mask the PDAF pixels) like is shown for the SL3 at over ISO 6400 and the Q3 at over ISO 25K.
Yep! Bill Claff's data on Photons to Photos shows that while cameras like the SL3/Q3 apply baked-in raw noise reduction at high ISOs to smooth over phase-detection AF artifacts, the M11 shows no such filtering. This is speculated to be because its sensor completely lacks PDAF pixels (which makes total sense to me, even if Leica never officially confirmed it), the camera has no missing pixel gaps to fill in, while allows the M11 to deliver a completely unfiltered, pure raw output with predictable noise characteristics across its entire ISO range (especially high ISO), giving it cleaner high ISO performance than pretty much any AF mirrorless body out there.
The camera and defenses of it in that fashion deserve some level of derision.
I completely agree. I’m also fed up with all the apologists for weaknesses that should never have been released.
This was the original comment: “ My only complaint is the sluggish viewfinder delay”. Of course immediacy is not always needed, but when it is . . .
This is not acceptable in a camera consistently touted as the finest tool for capturing the moment. I don’t get it in my M246 or my Sony A7rIV.
