Surfnsun wrote:
Different tools for different tasks. It’s the same in the fire service. Young firefighters often try to do a job with the wrong tool, and it usually ends up harder than it needs to be.
Leica is a successful company. They’re offering a breadcrumb to customers who want one camera that does everything. I get why. They did their research. I’m just not that customer.
For me, Leica means the M.
I use a Sony A9 for sports and action. Then I have my M setup for everything else. My choice.
It took me decades to arrive at that understanding. Once I stopped expecting one camera to excel at everything, I became a much happier photographer....Show more →
Agree. However, I do find my Sony A1 is closest to what some describe as "The One." The one fairly small and compact high resolution FF mirrorless camera that does it all. I can't wait to see what the A1 III brings.
SlowDriver wrote:
With all respect, It is hard to justify a Leica SL over Canon/Nikon/Sony based on image quality alone.
You can justify an SL based on user experience in my opinion, of if you are an M shooter by its support for M-lenses.
Any other justification is according to me really hard.
And on Leica not trying to be a speed demon, that is not what the marketing material for the SL3-P says...
IMO, one should also not justify a camera on technical specs or technical IQ alone. I believe that one makes better images with cameras that one enjoys more. I acknowledge that some do not feel the difference between shooting with a Sony, Nikon, Canon, Pentax or Leica (missed a couple brands 😁.
LBJ2 wrote:
I think a big step for "Leica". Not the market, but for Leica. The new SL3-P is reportedly "Leica's" best-ever performance camera and from what I've read so far...I think that is how Leica is marketing the SL3-P as their best camera in the performance category.
Yup, by dressing up a Panasonic and charging a premium. I'm fine with people wanting this Leica, but let's call a spade a spade.
SrMi wrote:
IMO, one should also not justify a camera on technical specs or technical IQ alone. I believe that one makes better images with cameras that one enjoys more. I acknowledge that some do not feel the difference between shooting with a Sony, Nikon, Canon, Pentax or Leica (missed a couple brands 😁.
I agree with that, which is why I have an issue with people heralding this model as something it isn't. If you enjoy the SL line, good for you. Just don't act as if this camera is going to beat anything comparable from the other brands. It isn't. It's a lesser camera for more money, period. If you still want to buy it, sure, go ahead.
Personally, I think Sony cameras are pretty decent rationally, but I don't enjoy Sony gear so I don't use it and I don't want it. Doesn't mean I'm going to state here that MY camera of choice is somehow unique where it rationally isn't. It's just the camera I prefer.
johnvanr wrote:
Yup, by dressing up a Panasonic and charging a premium. I'm fine with people wanting this Leica, but let's call a spade a spade.
Leica and Panasonic's co-development is no secret...for decades now. Besides how do you know the Panasonic is not a reskinned Leica? Ha! --Back at you 😎
But yeah the photography forums know this for years already.
That is how it is since 2002... CL and S lines are dead, since Panasonic doesn't produce them to lower the development and production costs for Leica... SL line is not a big seller either...D-Lux 8 is produced at Panasonic factories...
As one reviewer puts Panasonic S1R II as a nerd camera with all the buttons and menu options... Leica simplifies it and puts its own dng profiles in IP54 rated bodies with a premium price...
Also SL3-P doesn’t have as many AI options as the S1RII. Per Jono's comment:
"Having used the OM1ii which has different AI algorithms for birds / animals / cars / buses / aeroplanes / trains / aardvarks etc .etc. I really like that the SL3P doesn’t – I don’t usually know what I’m going to shoot until it shoots past, and having the wrong algorithm is a pain – the SL3P seems to focus pretty well anyway, so it’s not a bother. Perhaps less is better?"
johnvanr wrote:
Yup, by dressing up a Panasonic and charging a premium. I'm fine with people wanting this Leica, but let's call a spade a spade.
Surfnsun wrote:
It took me decades to arrive at that understanding. Once I stopped expecting one camera to excel at everything, I became a much happier photographer.
100%
It also provides a convenient justification for GAS. "I need this camera for action. And that one for landscapes. And that one for the studio. And that one for Japan. And that one for April". Not going to reuse the same body for everything like some kind of uncultured animal.
serhan_ wrote:
That is how it is since 2002... CL and S lines are dead, since Panasonic doesn't produce them to lower the development and production costs for Leica... SL line is not a big seller either...D-Lux 8 is produced at Panasonic factories...
As one reviewer puts Panasonic S1R II as a nerd camera with all the buttons and menu options... Leica simplifies it and puts its own dng profiles in IP54 rated bodies with a premium price...
Also SL3-P doesn’t have as many AI options as the S1RII. Per Jono's comment:
"Having used the OM1ii which has different AI algorithms for birds / animals / cars / buses / aeroplanes / trains / aardvarks etc .etc. I really like that the SL3P doesn’t – I don’t usually know what I’m going to shoot until it shoots past, and having the wrong algorithm is a pain – the SL3P seems to focus pretty well anyway, so it’s not a bother. Perhaps less is better?"
It is what it is! from what I read, lots of shared 3rd party components and manufacturing in varying degree among our favorite brand cameras and lenses. But few of the brands make this known publicly as Leica & Panasonic and Cosina/Voigtlander have over the years.
Reading the comments on DPReview, Richard Butler who reviewed the made in Germany Leica SL3-P and wrote the article tells the two Leica vs Panasonic cameras are very distinct even though there is high degree of shared componentry. One of his quotes in the comments “ They have a lot in common but are radically different cameras to use.”
I have S9 and SL3-S that share the same internals... The difference is for me the size eg SL-3S is still too big, and IBIS rating as Panasonic provides dual stabilization with lens stabilization... Menus are simpler with Leica and I prefer Leica dng's vs overrated Panasonic LUT's...
LBJ2 wrote:
It is what it is! from what I read, lots of shared 3rd party components and manufacturing in varying degree among our favorite brand camera and lenses. But few of the brands make this known publicly as Leica & Panasonic and Cosina/Voigtlander have over the years.
Reading the comments on DPReview, Richard Butler who reviewed the made in Germany Leica SL3-P and wrote the article tells the two Leica vs Panasonic cameras are very distinct even though there is high degree of shared componentry. One of his quotes in the comments “ They have a lot in common but are radically different cameras to use.”
Surfnsun wrote:
It took me decades to arrive at that understanding. Once I stopped expecting one camera to excel at everything, I became a much happier photographer.
That's the main reason I prefer shooting with an M camera. It remains relevant because it doesn't try to compete with the latest and greatest tech. While modern cameras increasingly automate what happens behind the scenes, the M brings us back to the basics and, for many, provides a more joyful shooting experience.
I will absolutely own an A1 II as my next body. It’s an incredible camera.
That said, I’m never selling my A9. We’ve developed a relationship over the years, and some things just aren’t for sale.
The A1 II will live with the 70–200, the A9 with the 35 GM, and the M with the 50 Summilux. That’s my halo kit. None of it is ever being sold. I should probably engrave my name on everything just to make it official.
LBJ2 wrote:
Agree. However, I do find my Sony A1 is closest to what some describe as "The One." The one fairly small and compact high resolution FF mirrorless camera that does it all. I can't wait to see what the A1 III brings.
It also provides a convenient justification for GAS. "I need this camera for action. And that one for landscapes. And that one for the studio. And that one for Japan. And that one for April". Not going to reuse the same body for everything like some kind of uncultured animal.
I can also appreciate that someone who shoots professionally may prioritize very different things than I do. That doesn’t make either approach right or wrong.
I’ve simply found what works for me, and I’m happy to leave everyone else to enjoy what works for them.
Fred Miranda wrote:
That's the main reason I prefer shooting with an M camera. It remains relevant because it doesn't try to compete with the latest and greatest tech. While modern cameras increasingly automate what happens behind the scenes, the M brings us back to the basics and, for many, provides a more joyful shooting experience.
LBJ2 wrote:
Leica and Panasonic's co-development is no secret...for decades now. Besides how do you know the Panasonic is not a reskinned Leica? Ha! --Back at you 😎
But yeah the photography forums know this for years already.
Never claimed it’s a secret. Most of my Panasonic MFT lenses have Leica written on them. And my D-Lux 8 is also clearly a Panasonic except for a few - to me important - differences.
I think the SL3-P is a very compelling offering in many ways. It greatly expands the use cases that the SL system can excel in. I have an A1 and a good collection of Sony GM lenses. But the need for such speed is rare in my use cases these days. Even in wildlife, which for me means East Africa, such speed is not required. The mammals ther are usually big and slow. Yes even the predators. If I never took another bird picture I am quite happy. I have no interest in shooting or even watching sports. Yes, even race cars.
So, for me the AF on the version 4.20 firmware on my SL3 is enough. It hardly ever misses in my experience. So much so that I didn't even bother bringing my Sony kit to Italy when I relocated here. I haven't had a need for it here either. For me, the IQ of the SL3 and APO-SL lenses is what best fills my current needs.
Therefore I am unlikely to be purchasing a SL3-P new. But may do so once the used prices are in th 3K area. The SL system including lenses are often pretty competative values in the used market.
It also provides a convenient justification for GAS. "I need this camera for action. And that one for landscapes. And that one for the studio. And that one for Japan. And that one for April". Not going to reuse the same body for everything like some kind of uncultured animal.
Oh, I do the landscape, studio and Japan thing, but one for every month, now that’s an idea
I have an A7RIV and Voigtlander lenses and am looking at Leica since the A7RVI isn't exciting to me. One of the things I did research on was whether mounting M mount Voigtlanders on Panasonic work as well as on Leica and that sensor stack makes a difference. So there is a benefit to that. I'm off to the Leica store since the SL3-P seems like exactly what I want. A friend is bringing his M mount Leica lenses (film shooter) as he and another friend are telling me that the color science and menus would appeal to me more. I only shoot environmental landscapes and no people, moving objects, etc. Don't use AF either. Perhaps a simpler shooting experience. We'll see.
letchhausen wrote:
I have an A7RIV and Voigtlander lenses and am looking at Leica since the A7RVI isn't exciting to me. One of the things I did research on was whether mounting M mount Voigtlanders on Panasonic work as well as on Leica and that sensor stack makes a difference. So there is a benefit to that. I'm off to the Leica store since the SL3-P seems like exactly what I want. A friend is bringing his M mount Leica lenses (film shooter) as he and another friend are telling me that the color science and menus would appeal to me more. I only shoot environmental landscapes and no people, moving objects, etc. Don't use AF either. Perhaps a simpler shooting experience. We'll see....Show more →
If an EVF is important to you, in the Leica line it seems to me that a used SL3 would be your best value. The SL3-P is about speed and AF. The SL3 is about Image Quality. It is Leica's best solution for M lenses and EVF.
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