This convinced me to stay put with my sl3-s. Seems like Leica needs one more generation of iteration to get closer to the mainstream cameras although it’s mostly good enough.
tzhang4284 wrote:
This convinced me to stay put with my sl3-s. Seems like Leica needs one more generation of iteration to get closer to the mainstream cameras although it’s mostly good enough.
Leica have admitted their entire processing pipeline needs to change to accommodate the next generation of stacked sensors. The development of new processors, and software optimisation will not happen quickly or cleanly. As an example the Nikon ZR launched almost a year ago with a minimum viable firmware; the omissions and flaws have not been addressed almost one year later.
The industry as a whole is struggling with the processor issue. Except for Sony. Sony makes it's own processor that is way ahead of those the other camera manufacturers are using. Sony will not sell this processor to others. Sony is enjoying a huge advantage because of this.
I don’t think it’s just a hardware issue. Assuming the underlying hardware is mostly Panasonic - they need to catch up on the software. The fact that the af is behind the s1rii in number of modes and such is disappointing. My sl3s is good enough and I’d probably buy a sl3p today if I wanted to jump to Leica but the upgrades aside from mp is so minor that I’ll just stay put.
Leica buys processors so is limited to decent but generic parts. They don’t make their own. I think software will always be a bit behind, seems like they are always one generation behind as expected because they have nowhere near the software people to develop like Sony.
tzhang4284 wrote:
I don’t think it’s just a hardware issue. Assuming the underlying hardware is mostly Panasonic - they need to catch up on the software. The fact that the af is behind the s1rii in number of modes and such is disappointing. My sl3s is good enough and I’d probably buy a sl3p today if I wanted to jump to Leica but the upgrades aside from mp is so minor that I’ll just stay put.
I'm not seeing the SL3P being behind the Panasonic in AF.
flash wrote:
I'm not seeing the SL3P being behind the Panasonic in AF.
Gordon
I think he was referring to airplane mode, train mode, tricycle mode, snail mode, dog's left paw mode, bat wing mode, etc. The proliferation of "identity" modes in Panny is certainly more than those presently in Leica. Whether or not the additional identity modes is germaine to one's needs is a matter of preference, but it does indicate some level of programming difference. Whether that is by limitation or by design choice could be debated, but the diff remains.
My primary concern regarding the Panny / Leica ... is how well the AF performance is for implementation with respective L mount lenses. Meaning, which combinations of body / glass produce the fastest vs. most secure AF acquisition response.
From a size / IQ perspective, we have a variety of L mount lenses to choose from Panny / Siggy / Leica. Historically, the Leica AF has been far enough behind that the body has been the weak link in the chain. Now that the 4.0 release and subsequently the SL3-P is out ... that "weak link" has been narrowed to a place that the combinations of body / lens being used are determinant of top / middle / low AF performance. I don't have the means / wherewithal to test out all combinations of lens / body to know for certain which lens-body combo makes the best in the L mount universe.
But, I do feel like the SL3-P vs. Panny is likely to be darn close for Leica, such that the discussion isn't relegated toward raw AF capability of SL3-P, but the combinations of lenses to perform optimally (AF vs. IQ optically), sans the greater number of identity modes in the Panny. I mean, if I'm tyring to nail focus on the "closest thing" to me, or something in a specific plane of focus (trap focus) ... it doesn't make me to much diff if is a turtle or a brick or a bullet. Neither have a mode for a baseball or fish jumping out of the water, so the fact that Leica doesn't have as many as Panny ... little concern to my needs, to capture the point of impact for when a baseball makes contact with the bat, etc. because neither have a "baseball" mode, per se.
Even as I currently am using the Panny S1R II ... I'm still tyring to find the best lens combo - AF mode for AF performance possible (never mind the difference in AF identity modes).
Any thoughts on the subject of L mount lens-mode combo will be most welcome.
LBJ2 wrote:
For those asking how M lenses perform on the Panasonic S1RII vs Leica SL3-P, this article presents a few comparison examples:
"Leica Summicron-M 35mm f/2 ASPH Mk IV and Voigtländer 28mm f/2.0 Ultron on both the SL3-P and S1RII"
Missed opportunity. That section of the article raises more questions than answers, and it aligns perfectly with what's written there: "More research will have to be done in this area to confirm this hypothesis." Basically he tested sensor stack thickness differences between the SL3-P and S1RII using a Voigtlander 28/2 without a tripod, not really saying where the focus was, and at f/16. I doubt there will be any difference at all at f/16! This should be tested wide open and at least with a tripod and the exact same focused area.
RustyBug wrote:
I think he was referring to airplane mode, train mode, tricycle mode, snail mode, dog's left paw mode, bat wing mode, etc. The proliferation of "identity" modes in Panny is certainly more than those presently in Leica. Whether or not the additional identity modes is germaine to one's needs is a matter of preference, but it does indicate some level of programming difference. Whether that is by limitation or by design choice could be debated, but the diff remains.
My primary concern regarding the Panny / Leica ... is how well the AF performance is for implementation with respective L mount lenses. Meaning, which combinations of body / glass produce the fastest vs. most secure AF acquisition response.
From a size / IQ perspective, we have a variety of L mount lenses to choose from Panny / Siggy / Leica. Historically, the Leica AF has been far enough behind that the body has been the weak link in the chain. Now that the 4.0 release and subsequently the SL3-P is out ... that "weak link" has been narrowed to a place that the combinations of body / lens being used are determinant of top / middle / low AF performance. I don't have the means / wherewithal to test out all combinations of lens / body to know for certain which lens-body combo makes the best in the L mount universe.
But, I do feel like the SL3-P vs. Panny is likely to be darn close for Leica, such that the discussion isn't relegated toward raw AF capability of SL3-P, but the combinations of lenses to perform optimally (AF vs. IQ optically), sans the greater number of identity modes in the Panny. I mean, if I'm tyring to nail focus on the "closest thing" to me, or something in a specific plane of focus (trap focus) ... it doesn't make me to much diff if is a turtle or a brick or a bullet. Neither have a mode for a baseball or fish jumping out of the water, so the fact that Leica doesn't have as many as Panny ... little concern to my needs, to capture the point of impact for when a baseball makes contact with the bat, etc. because neither have a "baseball" mode, per se.
Even as I currently am using the Panny S1R II ... I'm still tyring to find the best lens combo - AF mode for AF performance possible (never mind the difference in AF identity modes).
Any thoughts on the subject of L mount lens-mode combo will be most welcome.
Correct I am talking about the AF modes but I think you're overly dismissive of the problem. The author talked about airshow and bird photography which are two large genres that many photographers participate in. He reported as the SL3-P lacking the right AF modes in that Sony and Nikon provides. I have a SL3-S + Sigma 500mm f5.6 and I can tell it struggles to catch birds fast enough in AF compared to Sony and Nikon so I understand the issues he brought up in the SL3-P and every bit of improvement helps here.
Also, I think if you care about AF speed, the right answer is to buy Sony or Nikon and a set of linear AF lenses - the experience works like magic. I'm on the SL system mainly to use a specific set of Leica SL lenses so AF speed outside of the occasional wildlife photography isn't a top priority for me. From that perspective, my take is the SL3-S to SL3-P move would be nice from a megapixel perspective but everything else about it is extremely marginal.
I'd probably buy a SL3-P today but I can't justify upgrading from the SL3-S to the SL3-P for how little improvement there is to overall performance based on that review. I'd also probably pick a Nikon or Sony camera over the Panasonic S1IIR so I do think the Leica SL experience brings differentiated value with the body and lenses.
tzhang4284 wrote:
I don’t think it’s just a hardware issue. Assuming the underlying hardware is mostly Panasonic - they need to catch up on the software. The fact that the af is behind the s1rii in number of modes and such is disappointing. My sl3s is good enough and I’d probably buy a sl3p today if I wanted to jump to Leica but the upgrades aside from mp is so minor that I’ll just stay put.
It is absolutely in part a hardware issue. This comes directly from persons inside Leica who are in positions to know for sure. Leica/Panasonic and most all the other brands currently use a Fujitsu processor. It is maxed out and Fujitsu has no plans to make a next generation for now.
Sony makes it's own processor that is far more powerful than the Fujitsu. The will not sell it to anyone and keep it as Sony's advantage. It is a huge advantage. The Sony firewall story is false in this regard.
Currently the solution many are chasing is the Qualcomm ARM processor as it seems to be powerful enough. However, so far none have been able to produce a production ready conversion the last I heard. This has slowed down the release of a number of brands next generation cameras. It is obvious which brands those are.
tzhang4284 wrote:
Correct I am talking about the AF modes but I think you're overly dismissive of the problem. The author talked about airshow and bird photography which are two large genres that many photographers participate in. He reported as the SL3-P lacking the right AF modes in that Sony and Nikon provides. I have a SL3-S + Sigma 500mm f5.6 and I can tell it struggles to catch birds fast enough in AF compared to Sony and Nikon so I understand the issues he brought up in the SL3-P and every bit of improvement helps here.
Also, I think if you care about AF speed, the right answer is to buy Sony or Nikon and a set of linear AF lenses - the experience works like magic. I'm on the SL system mainly to use a specific set of Leica SL lenses so AF speed outside of the occasional wildlife photography isn't a top priority for me. From that perspective, my take is the SL3-S to SL3-P move would be nice from a megapixel perspective but everything else about it is extremely marginal.
I'd probably buy a SL3-P today but I can't justify upgrading from the SL3-S to the SL3-P for how little improvement there is to overall performance based on that review. I'd also probably pick a Nikon or Sony camera over the Panasonic S1IIR so I do think the Leica SL experience brings differentiated value with the body and lenses. ...Show more →
Yeah ... I didn't mean to be dismissive, just illustrative.
+1 that SL3-S > SL3-P is likely not a significant gain in AF performance. I'm coming from the SL2-S, so the SL3-P is more of an AF bump, than if coming from the SL3-S. I'm currently on the S1R II ... and have the same Siggy 500/ 5.6. I did demo the 70-200 Sports Siggy on the SL3 in store a while back. I also demo'd one of the Sony bodies with it. There was clearly a difference in the Sony vs. Leica. There's no debate to that for me. BUT, I'm still looking to understand the best that can be achieved within the L mount platform. That's not the same thing as trying to get a different system, to get the best AF possible, just the best AF possible within my chosen platform.
That said, I did handle some of the Nikon's last winter as a "maybe", and didn't care for them, Sony is a no for me (ergonomics aggravate me). So, again, just looking to understand optimal capability of the L platform ... body / lens / mode combo's.
1bwana1 wrote:
It is absolutely in part a hardware issue. This comes directly from persons inside Leica who are in positions to know for sure. Leica/Panasonic and most all the other brands currently use a Fujitsu processor. It is maxed out and Fujitsu has no plans to make a next generation for now.
Sony makes it's own processor that is far more powerful than the Fujitsu. The will not sell it to anyone and keep it as Sony's advantage. It is a huge advantage. The Sony firewall story is false in this regard.
Currently the solution many are chasing is the Qualcomm ARM processor as it seems to be powerful enough. However, so far none have been able to produce a production ready conversion the last I heard. This has slowed down the release of a number of brands next generation cameras. It is obvious which brands those are....Show more →
Interesting to hear reference to hardware / processing limiting capability. I read somewhere of a suggestion to choose an AF mode that samples a smaller area / number of AF points ... inferring less to process, can be effectively quicker to process. I haven't had a lot of time to work through the different modes yet. That said, I'm curious to the AF performance of say the Sigma 90i Contemporary vs. the Panny 85/1.8 vs. the SL 75 or 90 ... vs. 70-200 or other zoom variants, now that the PD aspect of AF is on the table for the newer bodies (i.e. SL2-S CF only).
Also, to understand the acquisition diff for AF-S vs. AF-C (processing limitations, again ) ... I'm mostly a single shot user, so back button or shutter button can be an option, too.
RustyBug wrote:
Interesting to hear reference to hardware / processing limiting capability. I read somewhere of a suggestion to choose an AF mode that samples a smaller area / number of AF points ... inferring less to process, can be effectively quicker to process. I haven't had a lot of time to work through the different modes yet. That said, I'm curious to the AF performance of say the Sigma 90i Contemporary vs. the Panny 85/1.8 vs. the SL 75 or 90 ... vs. 70-200 or other zoom variants, now that the PD aspect of AF is on the table for the newer bodies (i.e. SL2-S CF only).
Also, to understand the acquisition diff for AF-S vs. AF-C (processing limitations, again ) ... I'm mostly a single shot user, so back button or shutter button can be an option, too....Show more →
Increased speed and processor power are certainly the key to improving AF and frame rates related features at high resolution. I guess that is why everyone goes there in such discussions.
However, in Leica's case surprisingly these are also issues for the manual focus M system. In fact they are the primary reasons that Leica has brought the development of sensors in house. IBIS, silent shooting, and more focus aids for the EV-1, are the most requested features for future generations of M based cameras. Leica is first and foremost focused on image quality, optically through lenses, and digitally through sensors and processors. Leica also understands how important form factor is to the M line. Leica will not sacrifice these priorities.
In order to achieve these more advanced features within the stated constraints, particularly for IBIS, will require the elimination of the mechanical shutter to make room in the form factor. This will require a high resolution, very fast, low scan time (some speculate global), no DR loss, sensor and processor. This technology is currently not available for purchase. So requiring a custom, in house, development project. This project is currently underway, but won't yield results in time for the M12 (name in question due to copyright issues) generation.
RustyBug wrote:
Yeah ... I didn't mean to be dismissive, just illustrative.
+1 that SL3-S > SL3-P is likely not a significant gain in AF performance. I'm coming from the SL2-S, so the SL3-P is more of an AF bump, than if coming from the SL3-S. I'm currently on the S1R II ... and have the same Siggy 500/ 5.6. I did demo the 70-200 Sports Siggy on the SL3 in store a while back. I also demo'd one of the Sony bodies with it. There was clearly a difference in the Sony vs. Leica. There's no debate to that for me. BUT, I'm still looking to understand the best that can be achieved within the L mount platform. That's not the same thing as trying to get a different system, to get the best AF possible, just the best AF possible within my chosen platform.
That said, I did handle some of the Nikon's last winter as a "maybe", and didn't care for them, Sony is a no for me (ergonomics aggravate me). So, again, just looking to understand optimal capability of the L platform ... body / lens / mode combo's....Show more →
The Lumix S1II uses a semi-stacked 24 Mpixel sensor; this raises the question of whether Leica will follow the SL3-P with a SL3-SP .
Or specifically how different are the current generations of Panasonic's and Leica's image processors ?
If they are both the same Fujitsu silicon, but with company specific coding, then the SL3-SP should be possible ( effectively killing the SL3-S )
If this does not happen, it might be 18...24 months before the next SL camera release?
1bwana1 wrote:
Increased speed and processor power are certainly the key to improving AF and frame rates related features at high resolution. I guess that is why everyone goes there in such discussions.
However, in Leica's case surprisingly these are also issues for the manual focus M system. In fact they are the primary reasons that Leica has brought the development of sensors in house. IBIS, silent shooting, and more focus aids for the EV-1, are the most requested features for future generations of M based cameras. Leica is first and foremost focused on image quality, optically through lenses, and digitally through sensors and processors. Leica also understands how important form factor is to the M line. Leica will not sacrifice these priorities.
In order to achieve these more advanced features within the stated constraints, particularly for IBIS, will require the elimination of the mechanical shutter to make room in the form factor. This will require a high resolution, very fast, low scan time (some speculate global), no DR loss, sensor and processor. This technology is currently not available for purchase. So requiring a custom, in house, development project. This project is currently underway, but won't yield results in time for the M12 (name in question due to copyright issues) generation. ...Show more →
Interesting, but I did not follow ... how this ^ relates to the L mount AF experience is with different glass options / AF modes from the L platform (i.e. SL3-P / S1R II, etc.).
In L mount the Sl3 series are the best for Leica, and Panasonic has the s1ii series, probably matched with sigma lenses which have relatively faster af motors. That’s probably the best you can do in L mount. All the differences between bodies is minor, since they are all using similar generation processors and differing mainly is software.
) ... I'm mostly a single shot user, so back button or shutter button can be an option, too.