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After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon

  
 
mogul
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p.11 #1 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Many of you are forgetting that interchangeable lenses are systems. That includes lenses, flashes, add-on sound, etc. The overpriced Sony bodies are trading on the system approach to lure customers. The other camera makers are luring customers with less expensive bodies, but hampering the product with closed systems. Both Nikon and Canon are having a hard time moving from the mid-20th-century closed systems to an open system. The printer manufacturers seem to be having the same problem until Epson blew open the monopoly with their eco-tanks. A generic open system is the way to keep your product viable.


Sep 23, 2025 at 03:50 PM
RoamingScott
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p.11 #2 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


mogul wrote:
Many of you are forgetting that interchangeable lenses are systems. That includes lenses, flashes, add-on sound, etc. The overpriced Sony bodies are trading on the system approach to lure customers. The other camera makers are luring customers with less expensive bodies, but hampering the product with closed systems. Both Nikon and Canon are having a hard time moving from the mid-20th-century closed systems to an open system. The printer manufacturers seem to be having the same problem until Epson blew open the monopoly with their eco-tanks. A generic open system is the way to keep your product viable.


Do you not realize you can adapt nearly every full frame lens EVER MADE to Nikon Z without issue, including Sony first party and third party? This is such a dumb talking point that isn't rooted in any truth.



Sep 23, 2025 at 03:55 PM
Immortal
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p.11 #3 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Also worth adding that with Nikon you have some 3rd party options like Tamron lenses, Viltrox, Laowa, 7Artisan and more. Combine that with like Scott said - adapters from almost any other system to Nikon with good or very good AF. You have options.

Canon on the other hand is... well Canon.



Sep 23, 2025 at 04:10 PM
j4nu
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p.11 #4 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


old-gregg wrote:
Thank you for saying this. Many people misinterpret DR, thinking it's some kind of a upper/lower hard boundary. It's a far more neuanced phenomena. Not only it's different for each of the RGB channels, but it also has an ugly cousin called signal-to-noise ratio. This leads to funny business in the shadows and highlights even for well-exposed photographs, particularly as the ISO raises. And, as you correctly pointed out, DR plays a role in tonal transitions, especially (again) at higher ISOs.

That 1EV gap of DR between the Sony A7R V and the Nikon Z8 one can see in charts on
...Show more

Yeah, there's no question that stacked sensors trade DR for speed .
However, whether it's worth it or not depends entirely on you.
If you check photonstophotos, you can see that the difference between A1II and A7RV at base iso is less than 0.1 EV. There's just no way you're going to see it in actual photos, be it shadows, highlights or subtle middles.
On the other hand, you're getting blackout free EVF, higher FPS, more responsive AF and silent shooting in most scenarios ...



Sep 23, 2025 at 04:32 PM
old-gregg
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p.11 #5 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


@j4nu I have not used the A1 II, a $7K camera by the way, and can't comment on that. My rant was "inspired" by folks who're claiming that the Z8's DR deficit doesn't matter, and the Z6 III is perfectly competitive. As if sports and birds are the only subjects that matter.


Sep 23, 2025 at 05:41 PM
A74me
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p.11 #6 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


mogul wrote:
Many of you are forgetting that interchangeable lenses are systems. That includes lenses, flashes, add-on sound, etc. The overpriced Sony bodies are trading on the system approach to lure customers. The other camera makers are luring customers with less expensive bodies, but hampering the product with closed systems. Both Nikon and Canon are having a hard time moving from the mid-20th-century closed systems to an open system. The printer manufacturers seem to be having the same problem until Epson blew open the monopoly with their eco-tanks. A generic open system is the way to keep your product viable.


Dont tell everyone, im sure sony uses are going to sell $30k worth of gear to buy a z6iii that has less DR and pixels than my a6700 🤔😂



Sep 23, 2025 at 06:16 PM
aCuria
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p.11 #7 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


ruthenium wrote:
FF sensors have no DR advantage over the cropped sensors at ISO above 400, and at high ISO.


I think you are misinterpreting something?

In general FF sensors have a ~1 stop DR advantage over APSC at all ISOs

the ISO 400 thing is specifically about the Z8/9: The A1ii is one stop better <= 400, and half stop better >= ISO 800



Sep 23, 2025 at 09:04 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.11 #8 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


aCuria wrote:
I think you are misinterpreting something?

In general FF sensors have a ~1 stop DR advantage over APSC at all ISOs

the ISO 400 thing is specifically about the Z8/9: The A1ii is one stop better <= 400, and half stop better >= ISO 800


What you are missing is that if you shoot with lenses that have equivalent focal lengths and depth of field on the cropped sensor if you shoot at the same shutter speed the cropped sensor camera will be shooting at a lower ISO. Perhaps and example will help.

If you shot a 50mm lens on a FF camera at ISO 800, f/2 and 1/100 shutter speed, if you shot an APS-C 33mm lens at f/1.4 (which would have the same field of view and about the same depth of field) and kept the same 1/100 shutter speed the exposure would be the same with ISO 400 and the two shots would have very similar DR.




Sep 23, 2025 at 09:32 PM
aCuria
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p.11 #9 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


old-gregg wrote:
Thank you for saying this. Many people misinterpret DR, thinking it's some kind of a upper/lower hard boundary. It's a far more neuanced phenomena. Not only it's different for each of the RGB channels, but it also has an ugly cousin called signal-to-noise ratio. This leads to funny business in the shadows and highlights even for well-exposed photographs, particularly as the ISO raises. And, as you correctly pointed out, DR plays a role in tonal transitions, especially (again) at higher ISOs.

That 1EV gap of DR between the Sony A7R V and the Nikon Z8 one can see in charts on
...Show more

old-gregg, you are exactly right and I think you said it better than I did. People don't get how huge a huge deal 1 stop of DR is.

Back in 2017, the 6Dii was released with 0.2 stops less DR than the 6D. Look at what Carey Rose wrote:

Cons: Less low ISO dynamic range than even crop-sensor competitors

And Richard Butler published this scathing follow up

Canon 6D Mark II dynamic range falls behind modern APS-C cameras

The abysmal 2017 6Dii followed by a really strong A7iii release in 2018 pushed a huge number of Canon users to Sony.

Edited on Sep 23, 2025 at 10:39 PM · View previous versions



Sep 23, 2025 at 09:35 PM
aCuria
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p.11 #10 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Steve Spencer wrote:
What you are missing is that if you shoot with lenses that have equivalent focal lengths and depth of field on the cropped sensor if you shoot at the same shutter speed the cropped sensor camera will be shooting at a lower ISO. Perhaps and example will help.

If you shot a 50mm lens on a FF camera at ISO 800, f/2 and 1/100 shutter speed, if you shot an APS-C 33mm lens at f/1.4 (which would have the same field of view and about the same depth of field) and kept the same 1/100 shutter speed the exposure would
...Show more

You are right about the DR becoming similar when DOF is normalized in low light.

In poor light, when you need to control DOF, the dynamic range is similar (FF ISO set higher)
- group photos
- macro photography

In good light, when you need to control DOF, FF has 1 stop more DR (both cameras at base iso, APSC Shutter set higher)
- Daytime photography outdoors
- Studio photography with flash.

When shooting wide open with the same lens, FF has 1 stop more DR (when we want as shallow dof as possible)
- Low light photography
- Detail shots
- Portraits when the background is distracting


Edited on Sep 23, 2025 at 10:11 PM · View previous versions



Sep 23, 2025 at 10:00 PM
 


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chiron
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p.11 #11 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


old-gregg wrote:
Thank you for saying this. Many people misinterpret DR, thinking it's some kind of a upper/lower hard boundary. It's a far more neuanced phenomena. Not only it's different for each of the RGB channels, but it also has an ugly cousin called signal-to-noise ratio. This leads to funny business in the shadows and highlights even for well-exposed photographs, particularly as the ISO raises. And, as you correctly pointed out, DR plays a role in tonal transitions, especially (again) at higher ISOs.

That 1EV gap of DR between the Sony A7R V and the Nikon Z8 one can see in charts on
...Show more

Your viewpoint on stacked sensors may be shaped by what you shoot and how you look at images, but it does not fit my experience at all. If one wishes to shoot silently, stacked sensors reduce motion distortion in subjects who are moving even at relatively slow speeds, especially if they are close to the camera, and effectively eliminate LED banding in most circumstances. Moreover, according to Bill Claff's data, the stacked sensor A1 II has virtually identical PDR to the A7RV except at 320, 400, and 500 ISO, where it gives up about 3/4 stop of PDR. Given the trade-offs and all in, for my photography I'd take the stacked sensor A1 II any day. And I don't photograph birds but rather people in natural circumstances.



Edited on Sep 23, 2025 at 11:28 PM · View previous versions



Sep 23, 2025 at 10:06 PM
EB-1
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p.11 #12 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Different users have different priorities, whether DR, MP, AF, FPS, etc. and in different orders. No sensor or camera system does everything thing the best, so it's all compromises.

I've often used multiple systems over the years, such as Nikon+Fuji, Nikon+Canon, Canon+Sony, etc. There is nothing wrong with that. If all of the cameras used the same mount life would be much easier.

EBH



Sep 23, 2025 at 10:09 PM
aCuria
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p.11 #13 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


chiron wrote:
Your viewpoint on stacked sensors may be shaped by what you shoot and how you look at images, but it does not fit my experience at all. If one wishes to shoot silently, stacked sensors reduce motion distortion in subjects who are moving even at relatively slow speeds, especially if they are close to the camera and effectively eliminate LED banding in most circumstances. Moreover, according to Bill Claff's data, the stacked sensor A1 II has virtually identical PDR to the A7RV except at 320, 400, and 500 ISO, where it gives up about 3/4 stop of PDR. Givensthe trade-offs
...Show more

old-gregg: The benefits of a stacked sensor is not worth losing 1 stop of DR (ala Z8).

chiron: The A1II has virtually identical PDR to the A7RV

I think you are both correct. Your views are not mutually exclusive.



Sep 23, 2025 at 10:37 PM
tctmp
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p.11 #14 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


old-gregg wrote:
Why would anyone agree to trade off DR, which is useful 100% of the time, for 20fps bursts which is needed... almost never?


I'm sure there are user groups and usage cases where people are willing to tradeoff DR for fps. A9 series is a prime example, and those cameras certainly have followings.

old-gregg wrote:
I have a theory that explains this collective insanity though. As smartphones were getting better and better, fewer and fewer people used dedicated digital cameras. I personally know several folks who will list photography as their #1 hobby, who left DSLRs behind and are perfectly happy with RAW files coming out of their iPhone Pro Max. This exodus completely chnanged the composition of photo genres that the remaining MILC users practice. Everyone is either a video content creator, or an action/bird photographer now, because an iPhone still sucks at that. This shift is noticeable even in the galleries hosted here.
...Show more

I think this is a nice hypothesis. Basically user bases changed over time.

old-gregg wrote:
Fuсk the stacked sensor pandemic,


I have a feeling that's how film shooters felt, even though they may have claims of film advantages. When majority users' preference change, the products will disappear though I dont think regular sensors will go away any time soon.




Sep 23, 2025 at 10:59 PM
EB-1
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p.11 #15 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


old-gregg wrote:
Why would anyone agree to trade off DR, which is useful 100% of the time, for 20fps bursts which is needed... almost never? And, by the way, you don't need a stacked sensor for a class-leading AF-C, as demonstrated by the A7RV.


The a7rV is so slow at 10FPS and freeze-framy it's not so good for high speed action as you know. I use sometimes side by side with a modern 45MP stackable camera. If I can get 20-30FPS with a fast-reading sensor to get the flying BIFs that's what I do. Sure the A7rV has a better sensor on paper, but if I get 5-6 times more keepers it is a no brainer to use. If the subject is slow moving or for landscapes the a7rV really shines, especially at base ISO. At high ISOs (well into the high gain mode) you need some AI NR mostly with any sensor.

I prefer 20-30-40 FPS about 90% of the time now that MILS has taken over. For the previous 15-20 years of digital I did not have and concentrated on other things. The other 10% I can slowly use the old-school 61MP with adaptaters.

EBH



Sep 23, 2025 at 11:29 PM
philip_pj
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p.11 #16 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


'I personally know several folks who will list photography as their #1 hobby, who left DSLRs behind and are perfectly happy with RAW files coming out of their iPhone Pro Max. This exodus completely changed the composition of photo genres that the remaining MILC users practice.'

Fred is likely to start up a phone forum (I read the other day):

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1915401/2/#lastmessage



Sep 24, 2025 at 12:06 AM
Craig Gillette
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p.11 #17 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


philip_pj wrote:
'I personally know several folks who will list photography as their #1 hobby, who left DSLRs behind and are perfectly happy with RAW files coming out of their iPhone Pro Max. This exodus completely changed the composition of photo genres that the remaining MILC users practice.'

Fred is likely to start up a phone forum (I read the other day):

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1915401/2/#lastmessage


I think a phone forum could be interesting. I don't use mine to it's max capabilities/settings but mine is a fairly recent Samsung and unlike my camera or cameras, it's almost always with me. On our Rhine river cruise a while back, IIRC, there were perhaps 3 of us with "real cameras." In a positive environment some may be tempted and find reasons to move to mirrorless, etc., and keep numbers up some.




Sep 24, 2025 at 01:01 AM
ruthenium
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p.11 #18 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


aCuria wrote:
I think you are misinterpreting something?

In general FF sensors have a ~1 stop DR advantage over APSC at all ISOs

the ISO 400 thing is specifically about the Z8/9: The A1ii is one stop better <= 400, and half stop better >= ISO 800


We must assume that the same amount of light falls on a FF or a cropped sensor (otherwise the sensor that received more light would typically have a better DR regardless of the sensor tech). Let's compare a FF and an m43 sensor.
Then, ISO(FF) = 4ISO(m43), given equivalent amounts of light.

At ISO(FF) above 400, the DR tends to be slightly BETTER for m43.
For example, at ISO(FF) = 800 and at the equivalent ISO(m43) = 200, photonstophotos gives the following PDR numbers:
9.19 - 9.31 (A7RV - A7IV) vs. 9.65 - 9.69 (G9II - OM-1II)

The trend continues at the higher ISO, e.g. at ISO(FF) = 3200 and ISO(m43) = 800:
7.27 - 7.21 (A7IV - A7RV) vs. 7.87 (for both G9II and OM-1II)

The condition of "the same amount of light" requires equivalent lenses. Although there is much overlap in this sense between FF and m43 systems, the former has fast lenses that are unmatched in m43 (e.g. 600 f4 or 400 f2.8 or 50 f1.2). This is when a FF system should have an "advantage." But this advantage has nothing to do with the PDR of a FF sensor.
The advantage of m43 cameras like OM-1 II is the unmatched IBIS. This allows hand-held shooting with SS as long as 2-3 s in the normal FL range. When shooting static scenes (e.g., landscapes) this helps to collect more light (and have a better DOF) when shooting side-by side with a FF shooter equipped with an f1.2-1.4 lens. Thus, there are different scenarios when one system should perform better than the other and when the two should perform similarly.

Basically, it makes sense to keep this in mind that modern m43 sensors have slightly better PDR than FF sensors at ISO(FF) above 400.





Sep 24, 2025 at 07:56 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.11 #19 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


aCuria wrote:
You are right about the DR becoming similar when DOF is normalized in low light.

In poor light, when you need to control DOF, the dynamic range is similar (FF ISO set higher)
- group photos
- macro photography

In good light, when you need to control DOF, FF has 1 stop more DR (both cameras at base iso, APSC Shutter set higher)
- Daytime photography outdoors
- Studio photography with flash.

When shooting wide open with the same lens, FF has 1 stop more DR (when we want as shallow dof as possible)
- Low light photography
- Detail shots
- Portraits when the background is distracting


I would agree and this is a good summary, but would add these corollaries:

In poorer light if there are equivalent lenses, which is a big if, then considering smaller sensor cameras can save money. It isn't just macro photography and group photos, but action photography, including wildlife and sports, that often are shot in poorer light at higher ISOs. The primary advantage of FF for these types of shooting is not the better DR that is available at base ISO, which is rarely available, but instead the availability of lenses for which there are not equivalents for smaller sensor cameras. If you aren't using such lenses or can't afford them--and they are quite expensive--then smaller sensor systems can make sense.

In even moderately good light, stationary targets should be shot at base ISO if possible. If people care about DR at all, and I agree they probably should as it maximizes image quality, then they should slow the shutter speed and shoot at base ISO when they can. This works of course for stationary targets. Shooting at base ISO for stationary targets is always available even in poor light on a tripod and with the better IBIS of modern cameras for stationary targets you can shoot at base ISO with surprisingly slow shutter speed even if you are handholding and especially so if you can take a few shots to get the best one. Base ISO shooting is a primary advantage of FF cameras and if you aren't using that advantage you should consider using it more. Sacrificing base ISO performance for sensor scan speed if you shoot stationary targets doesn't make sense in most instances as the sensor scan speed gains you almost nothing and you will gain from the better base ISO performance.

In low light shooting there if often a tradeoff between wanting detail in enough of the image and shooting at a lower ISO. The lower ISO brings better DR, but the wider aperture that is needed to get a good exposure limits detail as shooting at wider apertures usually means a worse performance of the lens and always means less of the image is in focus. In practice stopping down, even in low light, is often desirable to get the level and amount of desired detail. In these instances in which stopping down is chosen a higher ISO will be required, and then the DR advantage of a FF camera will be negated if a smaller sensor camera has a lens with equivalent performance at the same depth of field. This happens fairly often in my own photography when shooting in low light. If I am shooting a low light portrait, let's say on the street at night, and I want the depth of field that even an f/2 FF shot would provide, then I can shoot an APS-C system at f/1.4 and get similar DR with the APS-C system.

The relevant questions then become how often in low light do I want to shoot wide open? My own answer is rarely. A second question, however, is what is the quality of lens that I can get at my chosen aperture? And for me the answer varies. Sometimes, in fact often, I can get a better lens for FF, but when I can get a quality lens for APS-C or a smaller format that matches the depth of field I recognize there is no disadvantage to the smaller sensor system.

Putting these two points together in this post, what keeps me in a FF system is the better base ISO performance, which matters for me because the majority of my shots are at base ISO, *and* the better availability of the the lenses I want to use that have excellent performance at wider apertures. I do have an APS-C system as well, however, and it has its advantages too--smaller size and lower prices are two of them--and in many circumstances it can serve me as well as a FF system would.



Sep 24, 2025 at 07:58 AM
3catsinky
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p.11 #20 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


this worrying about DR has to be the dumbest dick measuring ever! Most of you probably post to facebook or IG, and no one cares! Lens choice matters most in how you want your photos to look. These days, all of my photos are only getting printed 5x7 to go on our photo wall. And at that size, no one can tell or care what system they were shot on. The only thing that matters is how much weight are you willing to sacrifice for quality, at least to me. Clients aren't messaging me asking, what was this shot on, i don't see enough DR, or my background is blurry enough. They love the content.


Sep 24, 2025 at 09:18 AM
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