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 p.10 #14 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon | |
Steve Spencer wrote:
I agree with almost everything you say here. My Sony camera is the A7r V and I use it with mechanical shutter whenever I am handholding--I do use EFCS sometimes when I am on a tripod--but I agree that using the mechanical shutter for non-stacked sensor cameras whenever possible makes sense (tripod shooting excepted).
Having the A7r V I also agree that the viewfinder is excellent. And you are right about your description of it.
It is also true that the Z8 and Z9 have a bit less DR at base ISO than most non-stacked sensor cameras--for example as measured by photons to photos the Z9 has a DR of 11.27 stops at base ISO whereas my A7r V has a DR of 11.69 stops. Even the Sony A1 has a base ISO of 11.34 stops. In practice these difference are not very relevant but they are there. It is a tradeoff for the fast scanning stacked sensor camera that there is a slight decrease in max DR at base ISO.
I also agree that one of the principal advantages of the electronic shutter is that it increases the frames per second that the camera can shoot.
Where we disagree slightly is how useful the electronic shutter is for cameras with moderate sensor scan speeds (e.g., 1/60 or 1/69 of a second). You seem to argue that sensor scan speed has no advantage at all over sensor scan speeds of 1/10 or 1/15 second, and describe sensor scan speed in a very dichotomous way. Either it is fast enough like the fully stacked sensor or it is too slow for everything else and shouldn't be used. In truth whether it should be used is continuous and depends on how fast the target is moving and how fast the sensor scan speed is, and whether the lighting is susceptible to banding or not. In outdoor lighting there are no issues with banding for example, and the four times higher sensor scan speed in the Z6 III does mean the electronic shutter can be used for people photography with little chance of movement distortion. Why not use the mechanical shutter in these instances? The answer is rather obvious at times--you want to make no noise. For example if I want to shoot an outdoor wedding and need to be silent to avoid disturbing the ceremony then I would value the higher sensor scan speed of the Z6 III as it can avoid movement distortion as people walking down the aisle and movement distortion simply occurs a lot more frequently with a camera with a slower sensor scan speed. Movement distortion is a bit of a random event. Just like camera movement. You can sometimes get away with using an electronic shutter and not see it with a slower sensor scan speed, but the faster the sensor scan speed the less likely it is for it to occur. By treating sensor scan speed as dichotomous (either fast enough in fully stacked sensor or too slow in every other camera) you ignore the meaningful differences in how likely it is to occur between typical non-stacked sensor cameras with 1/10 or 1/15 of a second sensor scan speeds and cameras with 1/60 or 1/69 second sensor scan speeds.
I think you also mischaracterize wildlife shooters. Yes, some are going to spend $12,000 on a lens like the Sony 600 f/4 GM and they would sensibly simply buy an A1 II. There are a lot of wildlife shooters, however, that buy a lens like the Sony 200-600 G--I just sold a used copy here for less than $1,400. I would even venture to guess that there are more 200-600 G owners than 600 f/4 GM owners. There are a lot of people who want to shoot wildlife, but don't have the budget for an A1 or A1 II. Further for shooting a lot of wildlife shooting silently matters, as the shutter sound scares the animals away. Further many animals move erratically and quickly and things like wing movements in birds are subject to movement distortion. For those who want to shoot wildlife and don't have the money for the expensive GM lenses, having a faster sensor scan speed can make a big difference and a camera like the Canon R5 with 1/60 sensor scan speed, while not as capable as a camera like the Sony A1 or the Nikon Z8 or Z9 is notably better for wildlife in electronic shutter mode than the Sony A7 IV. The Nikon Z6 III is in the same league as the Canon R5 for this type of shooting and notably better than the Sony A7 IV. This will matter to some people. Oh, and these budget conscious wildlife shooters (and I would put myself in this category) do want fast fps for wildlife shooting as well, so that too gives the Z6 III a clear advantage over the A7 IV for this type of shooting.
Let me end by thanking you for your thoughtful comments. I do appreciate them. Even where we disagree and I have found them helpful....Show more →
Steve Spencer wrote:
It is also true that the Z8 and Z9 have a bit less DR at base ISO than most non-stacked sensor cameras...
In practice these difference are not very relevant but they are there.
Base ISO matters primarily for landscape and studio photography. Since the Z8, Z9, and Z6III are not designed with those genres as their main focus, their dynamic range performance at base ISO is of limited relevance.
What truly matters is dynamic range at the same ISO . In real-world use, such as wedding photography, it is far more common to shoot at ISO 125/150/160/200/250/320 or 400 rather than base ISO. Here the A1ii is one entire stop ahead of the Z9, and the A7IV is similarly ahead of the Z6iii.
One extra stop of DR means the brightest object the A1ii can capture before clipping is twice as bright as the Z9. This is a significant gap.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Where we disagree slightly is how useful the electronic shutter is for cameras with moderate sensor scan speeds (e.g., 1/60 or 1/69 of a second). You seem to argue that sensor scan speed has no advantage at all over sensor scan speeds of 1/10 or 1/15 second
For such slow sensors I would have the mechanical shutter turned on, because mechanical shutter readout speed is much higher at 1/250s. With the mechanical shutter on there is indeed no difference between 1/10 and 1/60s scan speed.
Steve Spencer wrote:
For example if I want to shoot an outdoor wedding and need to be silent to avoid disturbing the ceremony
You wouldn’t be “disturbing the ceremony”, in this case I’d use the mechanical shutter throughout if I were using the Z6iii. People expect photographers to be shooting key moments and expect to hear the shutter sound. In fact, with the A9 III, when there’s no audible shutter, people sometimes get concerned and ask if my camera is working.
If the client insists on total silence, then rent a suitable camera and get them to pay for it.
Steve Spencer wrote:
you ignore the meaningful differences in how likely it is to occur between typical non-stacked sensor cameras with 1/10 or 1/15 of a second sensor scan speeds and cameras with 1/60 or 1/69 second sensor scan speeds.
This is because with the mechanical shutter, slow scan speed simply doesn’t matter and can be ignored.
Having shot film and with DSLRs, some shutter noise and mirror slap has never been an issue for me. I suppose I did shoot a dress recital where they were simultaneously recording audio for a CD, but we sat far from the mics (walking makes noise) when the recording was in progress, and only shot when recording was not in progress.
I consider electronic shutter to be a gimmick and simply not to be used in most circumstances unless readout speed is close to 5ms or faster.
Where the higher readout speed really makes a difference in video. The Z6iii has a 1/107s readout speed at 4k/30, which is very excellent.
Steve Spencer wrote:
There are a lot of wildlife shooters, however, that buy a lens like the Sony 200-600 G
Steve Spencer wrote:
the shutter sound scares the animals away
I have shot plenty of animals and they really don't care about your shutter noise. You can even use a speedlight and they will ignore it (they think its lightning). What spooks some animals is a continuous light.
When on safari its the vehicle is making lots of noise... the shutter sound is really irrelevant.
Steve Spencer wrote:
wing movements in birds are subject to movement distortion
Only the A9iii solves this one. The A1 with electronic (3.91ms) and the A7IV with mechanical (4ms) cannot sufficiently eliminate movement distortion on the small birds.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Further many animals move erratically and quickly and things like wing movements in birds are subject to movement distortion.
You must use the mechanical shutter. 1/60s scan speed doesn't cut it. Even the 1/250s mechanical shutter or A1 / Z9 electronic is not good enough but we take what we can get.
Steve Spencer wrote:
fast fps for wildlife shooting as well, so that too gives the Z6 III a clear advantage over the A7 IV for this type of shooting.
I totally agree. The Z6III can do 14fps mechanical, which is 40% more frames than the A7IV. This makes it better positioned for sports / wildlife than the A7IV that's for sure.
For slower types of photography, I think the A7IV is better because it has considerably better dynamic range and more MP.
Lastly for video I think the Z6III is better. The Z6III video readout speed is even better than the Z9 at 4k/30
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