p.7 #3 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
chez wrote:
Yep A74 is no slouch. So isn’t the A6700 for $1500. You can even pick up the A7r3 at b&h for $1500. These are damn good cameras for their price.
I wish Sony would lean into APSC a little more. Seems like such an opportunity there with cheaper and smaller glass. I have the 6700 and use it as a travel camera and backup video for my fx30. There are some typical Sony type decisions that hold it back but it's a good system.
p.7 #4 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
Dultimate wrote:
I agree Sony doesn't have the guts it once did.
Just for my edification though, what $1700 entry level FF camera beats the A7IV?
The Z5ii spec for spec is significantly ahead of the A7iv in all but resolution at 40% cheaper.
I hear good things about the R8 but I'm don't pay enough attention to Canon to know. What I do know is that full frame camera only costs $1400.
Again, Sony doesn't have the guts to play in this sandbox. They will never have the "best" entry level full frame camera if they can't compete on price, because $2500 is no longer relevant to the "entry" conversation.
p.7 #6 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
Precapture is basically the camera continuously taking electronic shutter photos without you knowing. Given that there is a ton of computation happening silently, this is best achieved on cameras with stacked sensors where the electronic shutter performs as well as a mechanical one as well as cameras with fast memory slots and deep buffers.
Suggesting the A7V (should it have another middling non-stacked sensor)have precapture is the machination of minds as dull as river rocks.
DWOfPaul wrote:
Can pre capture truly work without a stacked sensor currently? I haven't heard of e shutters being that useful for action using non stacked cameras.
p.7 #7 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
RoamingScott wrote:
Precapture is basically the camera continuously taking electronic shutter photos without you knowing. Given that there is a ton of computation happening silently, this is best achieved on cameras with stacked sensors where the electronic shutter performs as well as a mechanical one as well as cameras with fast memory slots and deep buffers.
Suggesting the A7V (should it have another middling non-stacked sensor)have precapture is the machination of minds as dull as river rocks.
If this is the case for pre-capture then Sony clearly needs a new competitive sensor that is stacked but not 50 Mpixels.
Is that the new 44 Mpixel sensor rumored for the new A7V? If it were and it lined up as a reasonable competitor to R5 sensor but would push it to be much more I would think then the rumored price point of $3000. Pre tariffs price would probably be at least $3600 or more like $4000. Are there any stacked sensors not aimed at wildlife/ BIF other than the real high end A9III or R1, or R3?
Is there any point for Sony to offer a stacked sensor at 24 Mpixels like the A9II used to have or push a stacked sensor into the 33 Mpixel design of the A7V?
p.7 #8 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
My understanding is the Canon R5 does not have precapture. It's the R5II, which uses a stacked sensor that has precapture and is priced around 4k.
My gut is that the a7 / a7r lines are most likely to either stick with a conventional sensor or possibly a partially stacked sensor for their next generation. I don't see a stacked sensor in a camera much under 4k, so the a7 line is probably out on price. Stacked sensors hurt IQ at low ISOs a bit, so I doubt the a7r line will go with stacked sensor. Maybe a7s line could get the 24mp stacked sensor from the a9/a9ii, but I doubt it will come in under 4k.
Ideally, I think Sony needs a new stacked sensor camera around the 4k price point that lines up with the R5II and Z8, but Sony has kind of boxed itself in with the high price point of the a1II vs the R5II and Z8. To fully compete, they would basically need to make an a1ii with 5mp less resolution, which would cannibalize a1ii sales. I doubt many people will pay 3k more for 5mp. I am sure Sony could spin up like a 36mp stacked sensor for a new line, but then people will probably complain it has fewer mp than the R5II and Z8.
Maybe if they act before the Z8II / R5III they can buy themselves some time by adding a stacked sensor camera to the a7c line. It would help, not hurt a1II sales, but IDK how many people are going to want to use large lenses on such a small camera.
I really thought the a1II was either going to go down in price to be more competitive, or go up in MP, to help widen the gap for Sony to place a 45mp stacked sensor camera in their lineup.
p.7 #9 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
DWOfPaul wrote:
The Z9 precapture is not raw. That's the biggest missing feature from the Z9/Z8. I believe Olympus was actually the first to do pre capture raw.
i was going to say the same my em1mk2 had pre capture at 60 fps i didnt use it once.
p.7 #10 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
RoamingScott wrote:
The Z5ii spec for spec is significantly ahead of the A7iv in all but resolution at 40% cheaper.
I hear good things about the R8 but I'm don't pay enough attention to Canon to know. What I do know is that full frame camera only costs $1400.
Again, Sony doesn't have the guts to play in this sandbox. They will never have the "best" entry level full frame camera if they can't compete on price, because $2500 is no longer relevant to the "entry" conversation.
I have been asked to help a newcommer learn there new camera the z5 over the comming days, i will get back to you to see if your comment holds any weight. what are the chances your correct 🤔
p.7 #11 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
RoamingScott wrote:
Precapture is basically the camera continuously taking electronic shutter photos without you knowing. Given that there is a ton of computation happening silently, this is best achieved on cameras with stacked sensors where the electronic shutter performs as well as a mechanical one as well as cameras with fast memory slots and deep buffers.
Suggesting the A7V (should it have another middling non-stacked sensor)have precapture is the machination of minds as dull as river rocks.
p.7 #12 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
A74me wrote:
I have been asked to help a newcommer learn there new camera the z5 over the comming days, i will get back to you to see if your comment holds any weight. what are the chances your correct 🤔
Either way, I will be curious to hear your thoughts, but as an FYI there is a big difference between the Z5 and Z5II. The Z5 was basically a stripped down version of the original Z6. The Z5II is basically a ZF in a different body. The original Z6 got very mixed reviews while the ZF most people feel is a great camera.
EDIT: I just learned the Z5II can even do raw internal 4k video. Which is a feature the ZF does not have. Technically, it's a 1,700 camera doing something even the 7,000 a1ii can't do. Sure, the a1II can also do a bunch of things the Z5II can't, but the more I look at the Z5II, the more I see why people say it's a very good camera for the money.
p.7 #13 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
DWOfPaul wrote:
Ideally, I think Sony needs a new stacked sensor camera around the 4k price point that lines up with the R5II and Z8, but Sony has kind of boxed itself in with the high price point of the a1II vs the R5II and Z8. To fully compete, they would basically need to make an a1ii with 5mp less resolution, which would cannibalize a1ii sales. I doubt many people will pay 3k more for 5mp. I am sure Sony could spin up like a 36mp stacked sensor for a new line, but then people will probably complain it has fewer mp than the R5II and Z8.
Maybe if they act before the Z8II / R5III they can buy themselves some time by adding a stacked sensor camera to the a7c line. It would help, not hurt a1II sales, but IDK how many people are going to want to use large lenses on such a small camera.
I really thought the a1II was either going to go down in price to be more competitive, or go up in MP, to help widen the gap for Sony to place a 45mp stacked sensor camera in their lineup....Show more →
The Z8 isn't entry. The R5II isn't entry. This isn't a thread about that level of camera, or at least, it shouldn't be with "low to mid range" being thrown around. The Z8 and R5II are ostensibly flagship products of their brands, just as the comically overpriced A1/A1ii are.
Low to midrange cameras don't have stacked sensors.
You need to look at the A7iii to see the last example of Sony understanding the entry FF market. That is the model they need to emulate here. They need to deliver a non-stacked, good sensor that handles up to ISO 6400 with ease, that doesn't have crippled video, that has decent heat management, and that has a decently high burst rate in mechanical shutter (up to 14fps would be considered competitive now). Other brands are handling this task with aplomb and it's the reason the market is heating up in this price space.
p.7 #14 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
@RoamingScott I agree with your reply. My message you quoted was in reference to @swldstn message about Sony needing a new stacked sensor for precapture.
The only thing I kind of disagree with is calling the Z8 and R5II flagships. I feel like the flagships are the Z9 / R3 / R1. Just like in the DSLR days, sure, many, maybe even most, pros used the D8xx / 5D lines, but the Dx and 1D lines were the flagships. Cost has been drifting upwards now, but basically flagsips where 5k and up, and pro bodies where 3k and up in the DSLR days.
p.7 #15 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
Well can we decide what is the price of a low price entry and a mid price to bound this discussion?
Are we saying say $1400 to $1700 is low for full frame and $1800 - $2500 for mid? I’m not saying this proposal is correct but what is? If that’s the case then the Canon R5 Mk II and Z8 are not included and the low tear included the R8 and Z5II and the mid tear is the R6 II and Z6 III I think. In these tears Sony only offers the A7CII in the mid range and nothing in the low range. There are no stacked sensor and just for comparison the Fujifilm X-H2S at 26 Mpixels APS-C at $2500 is the only stacked sensor in APS-C that I know of and in M43 OM System has a $2000 body
p.7 #16 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
DWOfPaul wrote:
@RoamingScott@ I agree with your reply. My message you quoted was in reference to @swldstn@ message about Sony needing a new stacked sensor for precapture.
The only thing I kind of disagree with is calling the Z8 and R5II flagships. I feel like the flagships are the Z9 / R3 / R1. Just like in the DSLR days, sure, many, maybe even most, pros used the D8xx / 5D lines, but the Dx and 1D lines were the flagships. Cost has been drifting upwards now, but basically flagsips where 5k and up, and pro bodies where 3k and up in the DSLR days. ...Show more →
The Z8/Z9 discussion of which is the flagship is muddied by the fact that the Z8 has gotten new features that the Z9 is missing via FW, and the fact that the Z8 has pixel shift where the Z9 doesn't. You could make a "flagship" argument for either of them, if you ignore the obvious build quality differences, but for the sake of this thread, we're talking about still image capturing capabilities, in which the build quality is hardly a factor.
Also for the sake of this thread, neither count as a "low to midrange" camera.
p.7 #17 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
swldstn wrote:
Well can we decide what is the price of a low price entry and a mid price to bound this discussion?
Are we saying say $1400 to $1700 is low for full frame and $1800 - $2500 for mid? I’m not saying this proposal is correct but what is? If that’s the case then the Canon R5 Mk II and Z8 are not included and the low tear included the R8 and Z5II and the mid tear is the R6 II and Z6 III I think. In these tears Sony only offers the A7CII in the mid range and nothing in the low range. There are no stacked sensor and just for comparison the Fujifilm X-H2S at 26 Mpixels APS-C at $2500 is the only stacked sensor in APS-C that I know of and in M43 OM System has a $2000 body
This is a thread about FF cameras, so comparing irrelevant APS-C offerings doesn't really help clarify things.
The issue for Sony is that they only have a single full frame camera that fills the "low to midrange" space where other companies have multiple...the A7 line. Sony priced this camera towards the low end with the overspec'd A7iii to make a market killer, and they priced the underspec'd A7iv at the midrange level and it landed with a thud. Canon and Nikon have navigated this space very well with clearly delineated product lines for both sections of this range and are both offering more "value" for less money.
Unfortunately, Sony has shown their hand with their slightly iterative yet obscenely priced A1ii and RX updates...they aren't concerned with delivering features for the dollar, they are simply incrementing the model number up by 1 and ignoring the larger market. Now, perhaps they have data to suggest that it doesn't matter what they charge, that they'll sell units regardless, and certainly, you can read some of the sycophancy here and assume that to be true.
The low to midrange of this market doesn't support that strategy. You have people stretching their dollars to just reach $1400, let alone $2500. Why on earth would someone pay nearly twice as much for the simple pleasure of seeing Sony on the front of their first FF camera?
p.7 #18 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
RoamingScott wrote:
The low to midrange of this market doesn't support that strategy. You have people stretching their dollars to just reach $1400, let alone $2500. Why on earth would someone pay nearly twice as much for the simple pleasure of seeing Sony on the front of their first FF camera?
p.7 #19 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
@RoamingScott In my opinion, I see the Sony a7 as Sony's low range camera and the a7r line as Sony's mid rnage camera, which is why I said in my opening post:
I see this as:
a7rV vs Z8 vs R5 II
a7IV vs Z6III / Z5II vs R6 II / R8
If I were to fully group current Sony cameras, in my opinion I would say:
p.7 #20 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?
I think your grouping makes sense in terms of organizing Sony's offerings, but it's out of touch with financial reality. All of their current cameras are mid, high end or flagship.
DWOfPaul wrote:
@RoamingScott@ In my opinion, I see the Sony a7 as Sony's low range camera and the a7r line as Sony's mid rnage camera, which is why I said in my opening post:
If I were to fully group current Sony cameras, in my opinion I would say:
