philip_pj wrote:
'TTartsan or 7art M camera? What are we talking about?'
Perpetual innovator DJI is best positioned. They focus on modularization and miniaturisation and 'own' the consumer drone market (90%). Action cams, gimbals and the masterful Ronin 4D. An M-mount EVF camera would be a walk in the park for their engineers. That would get a lot of talking about, even just an announcement of intent would set the hares running.
Have you seen the prices for DJI products these days? They are not cheap - total fantasy to assume DJI would waste their time with a cheap low end M-mount camera when they can charge far more for Hasselblad or under their own brand.
As luck has it I will be in Borolo, Italy where Leica took all the influencers to introduce the new EV-1. I will have my M11 only as it is a trip with my Wife and Mother-In-Law. Their patience for photography is very limited.
tzhang4284 wrote:
Have you seen the prices for DJI products these days? They are not cheap - total fantasy to assume DJI would waste their time with a cheap low end M-mount camera when they can charge far more for Hasselblad or under their own brand.
IF you own an M11 and shoot with Leica M lenses, then Hasselblad X2Dii prices are $2400 less than an M11. The SL3 is about $100 more than the X2Dii which has many, many better features which has been discussed many times here with 10 stop IBIS at the top of the list along with the BSI 100MP sensor. SL APO prime lenses sell new for around $2000 more than Hasselblad prime V lenses which offer a clutch to switch immediately to manual focus if desired.
stgrove wrote:
IF you own an M11 and shoot with Leica M lenses, then Hasselblad X2Dii prices, are are $2400 less than an M11, The SL3 is about $100 more than the X2Dii which has many, many better features which has been discussed many times here with 10 stop IBIS at the top of the list along with the BSI 100MP sensor. SL APO prime lenses sell new for around $2000 more than Hasselblad prime V lenses which offer a clutch to switch immediately to manual focus if desired.
I haven't tried M-lenses on the Hasselblad yet. I probably should give it a go as well.
Which adapter do you use? How do the corners look like? Do you crop them out?
Anyone feels like this release also points to how the digital M-mount has matured enough that there isn't much Leica can upgrade from the existing M11 line. Sensor resolution has reach the limit you need for manual full frame lenses. Processor speed is blazing fast. Range finder stability has been fine tuned over generations. Camera body is as slim as it can get. The only thing that would attract me to upgrade from M11 is a hybrid OVF/EVF. The implementation is tricky if Leica wants an EVF to overlay the RF window.
I wouldn't say the M has hit its ceiling yet. We still need to see better sensor tech, color science, and yes, maybe hybrid optical innovations (when 2028 Fuji patent expires) still have room to grow. A stacked or global-shutter sensor? Maybe improved in-camera color processing, or subtle digital rangefinder aids could all be meaningful upgrades. Even workflow and connectivity could see a major leap before we call the M platform "mature
gordec wrote:
Anyone feels like this release also points to how the digital M-mount has matured enough that there isn't much Leica can upgrade from the existing M11 line. Sensor resolution has reach the limit you need for manual full frame lenses. Processor speed is blazing fast. Range finder stability has been fine tuned over generations. Camera body is as slim as it can get. The only thing that would attract me to upgrade from M11 is a hybrid OVF/EVF. The implementation is tricky if Leica wants an EVF to overlay the RF window.
dumplinknet wrote:
I wouldn't say the M has hit its ceiling yet. We still need to see better sensor tech, color science, and yes, maybe hybrid optical innovations (when 2028 Fuji patent expires) still have room to grow. A stacked or global-shutter sensor? Maybe improved in-camera color processing, or subtle digital rangefinder aids could all be meaningful upgrades. Even workflow and connectivity could see a major leap before we call the M platform "mature
Actually, Leica hasn’t put much effort into ‘M’ cameras. The use of the Maestro 3 is a good example, where even Maestro 4 is behind the big boys/girls. Until Leica puts some real processing power into their cameras with great thermal management, I wouldn’t expect much from them. As long as Leica owners are willing to foot the bill, they will produce Leica M at a price point higher than a medium format Hasselblad and an SL series with less capability than other rivals and at a Hasselblad size/weight. Not exactly stellar…except for a great menu system and wonderful lenses… not small considerations.
SlowDriver wrote:
I haven't tried M-lenses on the Hasselblad yet. I probably should give it a go as well.
Which adapter do you use? How do the corners look like? Do you crop them out?
I am using the Fotodiox Pro L/M-HB(Xcd). It is solid and weighs about 100 grams. Yes many lenses vignette, but when composing I try to keep that in mind so that I can crop the vignetting out in post without upsetting my composition.
stgrove wrote:
IF you own an M11 and shoot with Leica M lenses, then Hasselblad X2Dii prices, are are $2400 less than an M11, The SL3 is about $100 more than the X2Dii which has many, many better features which has been discussed many times here with 10 stop IBIS at the top of the list along with the BSI 100MP sensor. SL APO prime lenses sell new for around $2000 more than Hasselblad prime V lenses which offer a clutch to switch immediately to manual focus if desired.
The X2D and SL3 is irrelevant to the discussion of a small DJI camera comparable to a M11 in size so I'm not sure about the point of your tangent. Look at core DJI products - they have experienced price increases over the past couple of years that goes beyond tariffs - I think they have a market dominance, technical and leadership position that allows them to extract value.
Also, as a M11 owner with far too many m-mount lenses, SL3 and X2D vs M11 is totally apples and oranges. One is a compact rangefinder camera that uses small lenses. The other two cameras are larger DSLR sized bodies. I would buy a SL3 or X2D for very different reasons than a M-mount camera so they're not comparable to me. If you are comparing the two, you should also throw in every other Canon, Nikon, and Sony camera in too.
DJI's Ronin 4D 6K, a cine camera technological masterpiece, undercuts the EV-1 by $4,000.
Introducing their new PL-style locking adapter, Thypoch claimed almost all competing adapters use *leaf springs* to secure the lenses they hold. Curious about this unseen 'feature', I found this on one of the Fotodiox Pro adapter pages: 'The leaf spring design in the adapter holds the lens tight to the adapter..'
It might be another instance of cine usage benefiting our lens-camera connections, as time passes. Their product weighs ~80-90 grams. They might produce one for the HBs, hopefully.
DJI operates to a different ethos Vs Leica. Leica is about heritage, history, slowing down and perfection (eg massive but exceptional AF lenses or tiny and exceptional manual lenses).
DJI is in the cine and drone space where tech is far from mature, advances rapidly and solves a very different problem for its users, that need the tech. Hasselblad has gone from a Leica-esque medium format company in the old days to a cutting edge company that utilises DJI knowhow (and money). They would never have made the X2D without the backing of DJI. They still have the heritage thing and all that but play it differently to Leica.
Fuji, Canon, Nikon and Sony are your more traditional arms-race companies that will drop every feature they can think of in the next release. Fuji does stray from that path with the GFX RF, Xpro and X100 but not that far.
For the same half million you can get a Bentley or a Rolls or a Ferrari. They all have four wheels, can have four seats and go very fast but they have nothing to do with each other and many of their owners will have all 3 (and many other cars).
I was seeing if building an adapter with an integrated automatic leaf shutter (know the tech cam systems have manual ones), and Boryoza made a smart adapter where you can use GF lenses on the CFV 100C. Unfortunately, initial R/D and batch production would cost almost $350k on the low end. A leaf shutter M>XCD adapter would be nice though.
A really good and cheap lens that covers 33x44 is the TTArtisan 35 f2 APO that not many people seem to use. Other than the poor MFD, it's pretty great on the X1Dii and X2D I tested it on, not too big either on those bodies.
SlowDriver wrote:
I haven't tried M-lenses on the Hasselblad yet. I probably should give it a go as well.
Which adapter do you use? How do the corners look like? Do you crop them out?
Be ready for e-shutter only. 1/3 sec readout for 16 bit, 1/6 sec readout for 14 bit. The M 14 bit e-shutter readout is 1/9 sec (iirc). But, you have the focal plane shutter, so the limitation of 1/9 sec readout isn't a mandatory limitation, the way it is with M glass on Hassy.
Also, if you're shooting the M lens image circle on the Hassy, you're only getting the same real estate as the M (maybe a smidge more), but paying for the entire readout. Imo, if you're gonna use the e-shutter on the Hassy with the M glass, you really aren't gaining much ... actually losing the focal plane shutter and the longer readout speeds. If the point of using the Hassy is to get the 16 bit files, then you're stuck with 1/3 sec readout of the e-shutter.
There's a certain romance about using the M lenses on the Hassy, but in practical terms, there are limitations that need to be understood. My first go round with using M lenses on my X1D II wasn't quite what I'd anticipated (for my use case). If the IBIS in the Hassy is the compulsion for using M glass on the Hassy, the SL3 retains the focal plane shutter and has IBIS, if one doesn't want to use an M.
I haven't dusted off (retained from my X1D II era) my M>Hassy adapter yet, since getting my X2D ... I do want to test out the M 135/3.4 APO on it. But, again, e-shutter only. Maybe, later this week I'll give it a go. But, for anything with movement, that e-shutter can be an issue. For that, I'll just mount it on either the M or SL body and harness the focal plane shutter.
As to the price difference (previous reference), I still think I have been seeing the SL APO lenses on the B&S boards for around $3K and the Hassy V series on the B&S boards for around $3K for the 30 / 50 vs. 38 / 55. Retail new might be a bigger spread than the used market, but ...
tzhang4284 wrote:
Have you seen the prices for DJI products these days? They are not cheap - total fantasy to assume DJI would waste their time with a cheap low end M-mount camera when they can charge far more for Hasselblad or under their own brand.
In Leica land $5k is a cheap camera, and $5k is an expensive camera for camera market in general, for example. But a used market would be awesome!
RustyBug wrote:
Be ready for e-shutter only. 1/3 sec readout for 16 bit, 1/6 sec readout for 14 bit. The M 14 bit e-shutter readout is 1/9 sec (iirc). But, you have the focal plane shutter, so the limitation of 1/9 sec readout isn't a mandatory limitation, the way it is with M glass on Hassy.
Also, if you're shooting the M lens image circle on the Hassy, you're only getting the same real estate as the M (maybe a smidge more), but paying for the entire readout. Imo, if you're gonna use the e-shutter on the Hassy with the M glass, you really aren't gaining much ... actually losing the focal plane shutter and the longer readout speeds. If the point of using the Hassy is to get the 16 bit files, then you're stuck with 1/3 sec readout of the e-shutter.
There's a certain romance about using the M lenses on the Hassy, but in practical terms, there are limitations that need to be understood. My first go round with using M lenses on my X1D II wasn't quite what I'd anticipated (for my use case). If the IBIS in the Hassy is the compulsion for using M glass on the Hassy, the SL3 retains the focal plane shutter and has IBIS, if one doesn't want to use an M.
I haven't dusted off (retained from my X1D II era) my M>Hassy adapter yet, since getting my X2D ... I do want to test out the M 135/3.4 APO on it. But, again, e-shutter only. Maybe, later this week I'll give it a go. But, for anything with movement, that e-shutter can be an issue. For that, I'll just mount it on either the M or SL body and harness the focal plane shutter.
As to the price difference (previous reference), I still think I have been seeing the SL APO lenses on the B&S boards for around $3K and the Hassy V series on the B&S boards for around $3K for the 30 / 50 vs. 38 / 55. Retail new might be a bigger spread than the used market, but ...
I strongly agree. The best non M camera to shoot M lenses on is the SL3. People go through lots of mental gymnastics trying to convince themselves that other platforms are good. But they all involve more compromise than an SL. The only compromise with SL3 is form factor and price. But price can be mitigated by buying used.
The best platform for shooting M lenses using an EVF is now the EV-1 followed by the SL3.
1bwana1 wrote:
I strongly agree. The best non M camera to shoot M lenses on is the SL3. People go through lots of mental gymnastics trying to convince themselves that other platforms are good. But they all involve more compromise than an SL. The only compromise with SL3 is form factor and price. But price can be mitigated by buying used.
The best platform for shooting M lenses using an EVF is now the EV-1 followed by the SL3.
Invert the SL3 vs. the EV-1 if IBIS (or flip / waist level) is a priority.
M
M EV-1
SL3
Options for M glass utilization (in the Leica ethos universe) as the desire for EVF, or EVF + IBIS accrue.
BTW ... this might seem like an odd question, given the EVF ... but, does anyone know if the Visoflex still works the same on the EV-1 as a regular M. Point being ... it is an "angle finder" in addition to being an EVF styled VF, (for low level shots, etc.), sans a flip screen on the EV-1.
ftllens wrote:
A leaf shutter M>XCD adapter would be nice though.
Long ago, I first envisioned (fantasy) Leica making FF body with leaf shutter lenses. This ^ would probably be about as close as that fantasy has for potential to actually exist.
RustyBug wrote:
BTW ... this might seem like an odd question, given the EVF ... but, does anyone know if the Visoflex still works the same on the EV-1 as a regular M. Point being ... it is an "angle finder" in addition to being an EVF styled VF, (for low level shots, etc.), sans a flip screen on the EV-1.
If you have M11 series camera, you may try using your cellphone as an EVF (through Leica FOTOS app). I consider it’s a much better option than Visoflex for *ANY* angle shots, especially for street style shooting.
tigerlo wrote:
If you have M11 series camera, you may try using your cellphone as an EVF (through Leica FOTOS app). I consider it’s a much better option than Visoflex for *ANY* angle shots, especially for street style shooting.
I have done this on a few occasions. It is my default workflow when shooting from a low position while on a tripod.
