wolfloid wrote:
Elegant is not the word I would have chosen. Not even sufficient. Having used both peaking and magnification, like retrofocus, I find them both to be frustrating. I think everyone, who commented on what this camera might have as a focusing aid, was very, very clear that neither of the two options that Leica now offer would be sufficient - peaking not being accurate, and magnification being slow. Elegance was not a word that was ever mentioned for either of those solutions, which have been available for years. Expectations were almost universal that Leica was working on something much more elegant - hence the disappointment and disinterest.
I think it reveals a company which knows its narrow market and is happy to continue gouging its customers. It reveals no innovation at all, no inventiveness, or even effort. The words entitled and lazy ring in my ears. Let’s hope another company sees an opportunity and steals a march on this moribund, and complacent company....Show more →
"Elegant is not the word I would have chosen." I KNOW RIGHT?!
For some Leica enthusiasts "elegant" means "doing the absolute bare minimum.". This is why Leica is getting away with what they did with the EV-1 ...and rape your wallet in the process...it's because there are users tolerating this low-effort products.
dalegaspi wrote:
and rape your wallet in the process..
Some people should learn to express their disappointment about a very expensive camera nobody forces them to buy in a softer way.
A rape is something else altogether.
idk why X2D is coming up as an alternative here...while it's a great camera ecosystem in its own right.. it's an electronic-only shutter with slow readout speeds (i've had the x1d ii for a brief period) which is severely limited for how i use cameras...adapting non-native lenses will be more susceptible to rolling shutter side effects and i can't use a flash with M lenses.
wolfloid wrote:
Let’s hope another company sees an opportunity and steals a march on this moribund, and complacent company.
As I said here a few weeks ago: my hope is on another Chinese company to see an opportunity here. With this high price margin given by Leica, it offers now a nice niche to offer something similar for 1/4th or even less of this price (even if it is "only" a 24 MP FF sensor for example, I would be okay with it).
dalegaspi wrote:
idk why X2D is coming up as an alternative here...while it's a great camera ecosystem in its own right.. it's an electronic-only shutter with slow readout speeds (i've had the x1d ii for a brief period) which is severely limited for how i use cameras...adapting non-native lenses will be more susceptible to rolling shutter side effects and i can't use a flash with M lenses.
M
M with IBIS (wish)
SL with IBIS
SL vs. Hassy value proposition
pmeheut wrote:
Some people should learn to express their disappointment about a very expensive camera nobody forces them to buy in a softer way.
A rape is something else altogether.
sometimes it amazes me how some people take one conversation and make it an opportunity to put themselves in some kind of high horse.
context matters.
here you literally took my quote out of context so you can feel so all high and mighty with my "misuse" of words.
retrofocus wrote:
As I said here a few weeks ago: my hope is on another Chinese company to see an opportunity here. With this high price margin given by Leica, it offers now a nice niche to offer something similar for 1/4th or even less of this price (even if it is "only" a 24 MP FF sensor for example, I would be okay with it).
I also don't like what Leica is doing at the moment for a lot of things...like, spending thousands (if not millions) of $$$ on sponsoring a bunch of YouTubers to preview a product so they can go on their respective channels and literally say with a straight face in their "review" videos that they are "not influenced" by Leica ...but calling on just _any_ Chinese company to create a competing product at a fraction of the price is not something I will just get behind... _unless_ that Chinese (or any country for that matter) can truly create a compelling competing product...because for the most parts, a lot of the Chinese companies create products with compromises...even with their "high end" products.
Pixii is actually _almost there_ for me...and their dedication to their business model that serve the needs of their customers...but there are certain design decisions on their actual products are deal-breakers for me...like the no screen, internal-only storage, and especially the electronic-only shutter...if they improve at least the last one for me by using a sensor with a fast readout (a la Z9/Z8) then maybe they have a real shot and is already ahead of the curve than most.
dalegaspi wrote:
I also don't like what Leica is doing at the moment for a lot of things...like, spending thousands (if not millions) of $$$ on sponsoring a bunch of YouTubers to preview a product so they can go on their respective channels and literally say with a straight face in their "review" videos that they are "not influenced" by Leica ...but calling on just _any_ Chinese company to create a competing product at a fraction of the price is not something I will just get behind... _unless_ that Chinese (or any country for that matter) can truly create a compelling competing product...because for the most parts, a lot of the Chinese companies create products with compromises...even with their "high end" products.
Pixii is actually _almost there_ for me...and their dedication to their business model that serve the needs of their customers...but there are certain design decisions on their actual products are deal-breakers for me...like the no screen, internal-only storage, and especially the electronic-only shutter...if they improve at least the last one for me by using a sensor with a fast readout (a la Z9/Z8) then maybe they have a real shot and is already ahead of the curve than most....Show more →
Look at the M lenses made by TTArtisan, 7Artisans DJ Optical etc etc - all very well made with metal, optically good, many of them in >90% similar in quality to 10x more expensive Leica M lenses. Yes I expect compromises for a much lower price - but the EV1 is a purely electronic camera, no rangefinder based mechanical parts - I believe a Chinese company can quite easily copy an EV1, put a cheaper FF sensor in maybe even with a less high resolving EVF but still more than good enough. I think this would be a very attractive package for many.
Funny that always the Pixii is brought up when this is mentioned - main culprit is that it is much too pricey for what it offers! It is a failure. I don't think any western based company will be able to build and sell an EV1-like camera for much cheaper - they are all done here. Government-supported Chinese companies are IMO the only ones up for this potential task. And I say this as not being a Chinese product fan per se - but I admit that they are doing things no other country is able to do anymore.
dalegaspi wrote:
sometimes it amazes me how some people take one conversation and make it an opportunity to put themselves in some kind of high horse.
context matters.
here you literally took my quote out of context so you can feel so all high and mighty with my "misuse" of words.
A rape is non-consensual, unlike some retired collector buying a luxury camera they don't need and can't adequately use.
It's lazy phrasing and in no way bears resemblance to sexual abuse, and you were rightly called out on it. Your immediate defensiveness revealed the true high horse, regardless.
wolfloid wrote:
Elegant is not the word I would have chosen. Not even sufficient. Having used both peaking and magnification, like retrofocus, I find them both to be frustrating. I think everyone, who commented on what this camera might have as a focusing aid, was very, very clear that neither of the two options that Leica now offer would be sufficient - peaking not being accurate, and magnification being slow. Elegance was not a word that was ever mentioned for either of those solutions, which have been available for years. Expectations were almost universal that Leica was working on something much more elegant - hence the disappointment and disinterest.
I think it reveals a company which knows its narrow market and is happy to continue gouging its customers. It reveals no innovation at all, no inventiveness, or even effort. The words entitled and lazy ring in my ears. Let’s hope another company sees an opportunity and steals a march on this moribund, and complacent company....Show more →
I found when using the camera that the way the former frame lines lever could be configured to manage both peaking and magnification focus aids elegant, effective, and unique. No other camera on the market can do this. I was able to acheive a very high hit rate even with fast lenses wide open, in modest amounts of light. I did make a point of saying as far as the limited set of aids goes. So, yes I do find the lever implimantation elegant and simple. I am not alone in this view among those who have actually used it rather than just read about it.
I too would have prefered that Leica had provided some more advanced focus aids. Still, I encourage you to actually use the camera before passing final judgment. I'm sure Leica will be happy to loan you one for an afternoon.
RustyBug wrote:
Understood. Particularly, once you start adding in the prospect of adapting legacy Hassy and legacy R glass onto the X2D with the legacy bulk lenses and the requisite adapter. I dig on the fact that it's a great camera and has it's own realm of versatility from the advent of mirrorless. But, yeah ... M vs. X2D ... kinda different animals.
It does take a bit of scope creep to walk that far down the line (imo).
---------------------------------------------
dalegaspi wrote:
idk why X2D is coming up as an alternative here...while it's a great camera ecosystem in its own right.. it's an electronic-only shutter with slow readout speeds (i've had the x1d ii for a brief period) which is severely limited for how i use cameras...adapting non-native lenses will be more susceptible to rolling shutter side effects and i can't use a flash with M lenses.
Because the X2D with a V lens has a remarkably similar manual focus experience as the EV1. Much closer than the Q is. Sure the HB is bigger but it’s cheaper, has IBIS, better IQ, AF ability and a flippy screen, For some it can replace and M for travel. It’s a running joke with the Australian Leica Ambassadors that I turn up on Leica trips with a Hasselblad and not an M. And the HB is nothing like a GFX 100Sii. Nothing. Fujis FBW lenses are an awful MF experience. The V lenses are fabulous.
Having most of these systems here I think that an X2D with a V lens is the closest you can get to the EV1 experience. Certainly closer than a Q3 (lens ergonomics) or an A7CR (horrid EVF). When we’re talking about the HB it’s with native V lenses, not adapting.
As @SrMi said earlier, if the EV1 had IBIS this might not be as much an alternative but if you have an X2D you’ll know that choosing an EV1 over the HB is a very big ask,
retrofocus wrote:
Look at the M lenses made by TTArtisan, 7Artisans DJ Optical etc etc - all very well made with metal, optically good, many of them in >90% similar in quality to 10x more expensive Leica M lenses. Yes I expect compromises for a much lower price - but the EV1 is a purely electronic camera, no rangefinder based mechanical parts - I believe a Chinese company can quite easily copy an EV1, put a cheaper FF sensor in maybe even with a less high resolving EVF but still more than good enough. I think this would be a very attractive package for many.
Funny that always the Pixii is brought up when this is mentioned - main culprit is that it is much too pricey for what it offers! It is a failure. I don't think any western based company will be able to build and sell an EV1-like camera for much cheaper - they are all done here. Government-supported Chinese companies are IMO the only ones up for this potential task. And I say this as not being a Chinese product fan per se - but I admit that they are doing things no other country is able to do anymore. ...Show more →
yeah, you're probably right with the subsidies provided by the Chinese government puts them in a better position. that's exactly what's happening with the EV market being disrupted by the Chinese brands.
as for Pixii...I wouldn't exactly call them a failure just yet... they are thriving, after all...they even have a sneak peak for an upcoming camera.
RoamingScott wrote:
A rape is non-consensual, unlike some retired collector buying a luxury camera they don't need and can't adequately use.
It's lazy phrasing and in no way bears resemblance to sexual abuse, and you were rightly called out on it. Your immediate defensiveness revealed the true high horse, regardless.
Normally I have more on the chamber for this to continue...but it won't contribute to the essence of discussion...
so I think we can all agree that energy is better spent to express varying levels of disappointment on the EV-1.
retrofocus wrote:
Look at the M lenses made by TTArtisan, 7Artisans DJ Optical etc etc - all very well made with metal, optically good, many of them in >90% similar in quality to 10x more expensive Leica M lenses. Yes I expect compromises for a much lower price - but the EV1 is a purely electronic camera, no rangefinder based mechanical parts - I believe a Chinese company can quite easily copy an EV1, put a cheaper FF sensor in maybe even with a less high resolving EVF but still more than good enough. I think this would be a very attractive package for many.
Funny that always the Pixii is brought up when this is mentioned - main culprit is that it is much too pricey for what it offers! It is a failure. I don't think any western based company will be able to build and sell an EV1-like camera for much cheaper - they are all done here. Government-supported Chinese companies are IMO the only ones up for this potential task. And I say this as not being a Chinese product fan per se - but I admit that they are doing things no other country is able to do anymore. ...Show more →
The problem is this camera you described is dead on arrival. Leica M works because it's a luxury good - there's no other reason for it to exist - I own one and I understand the mental gymnastics behind justifying owning one. However, the moment it becomes a 7Artisans M1-EVF camera, it loses 90% of its value. If it costs $1,000, you can buy a lot better cameras for $1,000, same at each price point. If you can afford a Leica, this is like buying a knockoff handbag or watch.
From a customer segmentation perspective, the number of people who want this is very small and not profitable - price sensitive manual focus camera lens fans. You're better off making lenses and adapters to meet customer demand than to create this dedicated camera.
Because the X2D with a V lens has a remarkably similar manual focus experience as the EV1. Much closer than the Q is. Sure the HB is bigger but it’s cheaper, has IBIS, better IQ, AF ability and a flippy screen, For some it can replace and M for travel. It’s a running joke with the Australian Leica Ambassadors that I turn up on Leica trips with a Hasselblad and not an M. And the HB is nothing like a GFX 100Sii. Nothing. Fujis FBW lenses are an awful MF experience. The V lenses are fabulous.
Having most of these systems here I think that an X2D with a V lens is the closest you can get to the EV1 experience. Certainly closer than a Q3 (lens ergonomics) or an A7CR (horrid EVF). When we’re talking about the HB it’s with native V lenses, not adapting.
As @SrMi@ said earlier, if the EV1 had IBIS this might not be as much an alternative but if you have an X2D you’ll know that choosing an EV1 over the HB is a very big ask,
I suppose that's an argument that holds...if only it didn't have an electronic-only shutter using a sensor with a slow readout then it would be a lot stronger...but I suppose for a lot of situations it's not a big deal for most users.
tzhang4284 wrote:
The problem is this camera you described is dead on arrival. Leica M works because it's a luxury good - there's no other reason for it to exist - I own one and I understand the mental gymnastics behind justifying owning one. However, the moment it becomes a 7Artisans M1-EVF camera, it loses 90% of its value. If it costs $1,000, you can buy a lot better cameras for $1,000, same at each price point. If you can afford a Leica, this is like buying a knockoff handbag or watch.
From a customer segmentation perspective, the number of people who want this is very small and not profitable - price sensitive manual focus camera lens fans. You're better off making lenses and adapters to meet customer demand than to create this dedicated camera....Show more →
I disagree - price matters. It surely wouldn't be a collector item - but I couldn't care less about this. I would buy a "7Artisans M1-EVF camera" as in your example for $1K in a blink of an eye since no other EVF based MLC gives me the comfort to mount M lenses directly without adapter on the camera and ensures lenses are working with the camera sensor without corner fringing or coloration. I personally just hope that such camera suddenly sees light of day - I can ensure you soon after the M EV1 would drop significantly in price, too.
tzhang4284 wrote:
The problem is this camera you described is dead on arrival. Leica M works because it's a luxury good - there's no other reason for it to exist - I own one and I understand the mental gymnastics behind justifying owning one. However, the moment it becomes a 7Artisans M1-EVF camera, it loses 90% of its value. If it costs $1,000, you can buy a lot better cameras for $1,000, same at each price point. If you can afford a Leica, this is like buying a knockoff handbag or watch.
From a customer segmentation perspective, the number of people who want this is very small and not profitable - price sensitive manual focus camera lens fans. You're better off making lenses and adapters to meet customer demand than to create this dedicated camera....Show more →
that's actually a good counterpoint.
it's more-or-less the same reason I don't buy the TTArtisan or 7artisan or LLL Leica lens design clones.
Because the X2D with a V lens has a remarkably similar manual focus experience as the EV1. Much closer than the Q is. Sure the HB is bigger but it’s cheaper, has IBIS, better IQ, AF ability and a flippy screen, For some it can replace and M for travel. It’s a running joke with the Australian Leica Ambassadors that I turn up on Leica trips with a Hasselblad and not an M. And the HB is nothing like a GFX 100Sii. Nothing. Fujis FBW lenses are an awful MF experience. The V lenses are fabulous.
Having most of these systems here I think that an X2D with a V lens is the closest you can get to the EV1 experience. Certainly closer than a Q3 (lens ergonomics) or an A7CR (horrid EVF). When we’re talking about the HB it’s with native V lenses, not adapting.
As @SrMi@ said earlier, if the EV1 had IBIS this might not be as much an alternative but if you have an X2D you’ll know that choosing an EV1 over the HB is a very big ask,
Some interesting comments to consider. Thanks for posting. Where can I find some resources to further scrutinize Hasselblad lenses. Lot of chatter about HB cameras, but not finding much on their lenses. I've looked at "some" available MTFs, but would like to know more.
Till now I would have never considered comparing EV1 with HB.
retrofocus wrote:
I disagree - price matters. It surely wouldn't be a collector item - but I couldn't care less about this. I would buy a "7Artisans M1-EVF camera" as in your example for $1K in a blink of an eye since no other EVF based MLC gives me the comfort to mount M lenses directly without adapter on the camera and ensures lenses are working with the camera sensor without corner fringing or coloration. I personally just hope that such camera suddenly sees light of day - I can ensure you soon after the M EV1 would drop significantly in price, too. ...Show more →
"ensures lenses are working with the camera sensor without corner fringing or coloration."
This is what's going to cost the price to go up by the way or make this more dead on arrival - micro lenses to ensure the camera sensor works without corner fringing or coloration. I wouldn't be surprised if this is where Leica has some intellectual property around the sensor. You can probably get close with a thin sensor filter stack - e.g. Kolari mod but it won't be perfect without some sort of micro lens array. My guess is it'll be at least $2k to $3k to ensure no corner fringing but at this price point, you can just buy a Nikon ZF and get close enough + have AF.
Zeiss tried to take on Leica directly and undercut them - unfortunately it didn't succeed either - the markets just too small. Zeiss IKON ZM and ZX1 are good examples here.
The best strategy is to be Leica adjacent without taking them on directly - example Fuji X system and the Nikon ZF. Both played the retro camera game but did it in a way that allowed them to gain scale.
