LBJ2 wrote:
I think Sony has made the most progress toward Full Frame and AF "Goliath wants into a postage stamp" but even in 2025 there are limitations that come with Sony's tiny FF cameras. But many seem to be happy and able to manage with the limitations particularly if camera size is the priority.
The quid pro quo's involved are intricate, but I think the datapoints among different models, illustrate that there is no free lunch.
For many folks, they have an acceptance threshold of one (or more) attributes, that allows for the adoption of the other(s).
In that regard, Sony does bring a wide variety of combinations (craft builds, if you will) that cover a broad curve. Certainly more so than Leica / Hassy. The latter two lean harder into "no" (or limited) concessions on readout quality for some of their models.
For many folks, their "true need" for that level of readout quality isn't at that level, and thus they can readily accept the engineering trade-off's to achieve their form factor of choice.
RustyBug wrote:
SL APO's ... similar price points as Hassy's V and E series lenses (P lenses are a lower price point).
Sorry, but you are NOT CORRECT.
All the Hasselblad V prime lenses I own cost $3700 (the 90V cost $4200) whereas the SL APO primes I bought were between $5.2 to $5.8k.
Those are NOT similar price points IMHO when the Leica APO lens costs around $2k more than a Hasselblad V lens. P lenses are about $1700.
AFA manual lens options for the X2Dii and 907x, I own at least 15 manual focus lenses which work very well on the Hasselblad digital offerings. Even Leica R lenses work well on the X2Dii and 907x. M lenses also adapt with vignetting which can be factored in while composing.
All the Hasselblad V prime lenses I own cost $3700 (the 90V cost $4200) whereas the SL APO primes I bought were between $5.2 to $5.8k.
Those are NOT similar price points IMHO when the Leica APO lens costs around $2k more than a Hasselblad V lens. P lenses are about $1700.
AFA manual lens options for the X2Dii and 907x, I own at least 15 manual focus lenses which work very well on the Hasselblad digital offerings. Even Leica R lenses work well on the X2Dii and 907x. M lenses also adapt with vignetting which can be factored in while composing....Show more →
The SL APO's I see posted on the boards here are largely in the $3K range for the primes. Are you comparing the cost of Hassy Primes vs. SL APO zooms, by chance? iirc, the Hassy Zooms and SL APO zooms are closer than the $2K diff you mentioned ... iirc.
Yes, P lenses are more affordable than the E and V series.
SlowDriver wrote:
Respectfully no... Hasselblad is not cheap either but still (significantly) below the Leica SL system.
And for me personally the X2D/X2Dii replaced both the M and the SL systems resulting in additional savings.
Certainly, if you consolidate two systems into one ... that generally makes for more efficient $$$. Of course, the X2D vs. the M is quite a different tool. Kinda like a convertible vs. a truck, of sorts.
RustyBug wrote:
The SL APO's I see posted on the boards here are largely in the $3K range for the primes. Are you comparing the cost of Hassy Primes vs. SL APO zooms, by chance? iirc, the Hassy Zooms and SL APO zooms are closer than the $2K diff you mentioned ... iirc.
Yes, P lenses are more affordable than the E and V series.
You did not say to bring up "used lenses on the boards here" in your earlier post. Are you trying to confuse the subject?? Come on!
No I am comparing new prices to new prices.
If you want to talk zoom lenses then the same holds-SL Leica zooms cost more.
stgrove wrote:
You did not say to bring up "used lenses" in your earlier post. Are you trying to confuse the subject??
No I am comparing new prices to new prices.
If you want to talk zoom lenses then the same holds-SL Leica zooms cost more.
No, not trying to "confuse" ... just checking.
My perspective has been that while both are $$$$, I don't find the difference to be as dramatically compelling as others might. That gap gets narrowed a bit in the used market, of course. Maybe that's why I'm not feeling it the same way as others who are pricing at new.
RustyBug wrote:
Certainly, if you consolidate two systems into one ... that generally makes for more efficient $$$. Of course, the X2D vs. the M is quite a different tool. Kinda like a convertible vs. a truck, of sorts.
I used the M for travel, walkaround and documentary. I however now prefer the X2D/X2Dii for that.
RustyBug wrote:
Of course, the X2D vs. the M is quite a different tool. Kinda like a convertible vs. a truck, of sorts.
Indeed. The X2D is a nice camera but if you can replace the M with it, I wonder if it was the best choice to start with: small manual focus rangefinder vs medium format EVF, twice the size, 1.5x the weight (with 35mm M & 45mm Blad), a lot of 0.95 to 1.4 lenses for the M, 1.9 max for the X2...
pmeheut wrote:
Indeed. The X2D is a nice camera but if you can replace the M with it, I wonder if it was the best choice to start with: small manual focus rangefinder vs medium format EVF, twice the size, 1.5x the weight (with 35mm M & 45mm Blad), a lot of 0.95 to 1.4 lenses for the M, 1.9 max for the X2...
Different use cases (end points) ... with a degree of overlap.
RustyBug wrote:
For short walkabouts, I'm good with my X2D / 45P. For all day carry, not so much a fan.
YMMV
And it does. I am good up to around 1,200g for a one body one lens carry. I also only bought into the Hasselblad system when they released the 45P. Nowadays I take the X2Dii with the 38V everywhere. I can comfortably carry that the whole day.
SlowDriver wrote:
And it does. I am good up to around 1,200g for a one body one lens carry. I also only bought into the Hasselblad system when they released the 45P. Nowadays I take the X2Dii with the 38V everywhere. I can comfortably carry that the whole day.
Understood. Everyone's temperament varies, in their preferences. What I can do, and what I prefer to do may be different things. I just found that after an all day of carry with my Hassy, I enjoyed carrying my M10-R the next day (for that given use case).
SlowDriver wrote:
I used the M for travel, walkaround and documentary. I however now prefer the X2D/X2Dii for that.
If M11 or M-EV1 had IBIS, I would clearly prefer Leicas for travel, walkaround, and documentary photography. Without IBIS in M cameras, I am torn between X2D II and M11/M-EV1.
I don't really get the M vs X2D II comparison. To me, the only thing they really have in common is the stellar brand reputation.
I have the GFX100s, but would never see that as an alternative to a small FF camera and don't see their uses as similar at all. The Hasselblad is a bit smaller and ergonomically a masterpiece, but I cannot imagine using it as an alternative to a Leica M.
Now, maybe that's because I use the M for faster photography than most. I don't know.
(btw, I know they have more in common than the brand reputation, but I'm speaking about what sets them apart from other brands offering a host of features cameras can share or do share)
johnvanr wrote:
I don't really get the M vs X2D II comparison. To me, the only thing they really have in common is the stellar brand reputation.
Understood. Particularly, once you start adding in the prospect of adapting legacy Hassy and legacy R glass onto the X2D with the legacy bulk lenses and the requisite adapter. I dig on the fact that it's a great camera and has it's own realm of versatility from the advent of mirrorless. But, yeah ... M vs. X2D ... kinda different animals.
It does take a bit of scope creep to walk that far down the line (imo).
Can't wait for the M12 discussions.
