tzhang4284 wrote:
"ensures lenses are working with the camera sensor without corner fringing or coloration."
This is what's going to cost the price to go up by the way or make this more dead on arrival - micro lenses to ensure the camera sensor works without corner fringing or coloration. I wouldn't be surprised if this is where Leica has some intellectual property around the sensor. You can probably get close with a thin sensor filter stack - e.g. Kolari mod but it won't be perfect without some sort of micro lens array. My guess is it'll be at least $2k to $3k to ensure no corner fringing but at this price point, you can just buy a Nikon ZF and get close enough + have AF.
Zeiss tried to take on Leica directly and undercut them - unfortunately it didn't succeed either - the markets just too small. Zeiss IKON ZM and ZX1 are good examples here.
The best strategy is to be Leica adjacent without taking them on directly - example Fuji X system and the Nikon ZF. Both played the retro camera game but did it in a way that allowed them to gain scale....Show more →
As I said earlier - for $1K in your example I just expect a M-based EVF camera which is good enough, no hyper-sophisticated microlens stuff or whatsoever. Just being good enough to avoid most corner issues seen with other brand sensors. If the sensor works like a Kolari-modified one, this is absolutely okay.
Again, Zeiss tried with the Ikon cameras - much too expensive for what they offered in the first place - failure! For the price tag given, there was no reason why consumers would shy away from a Leica camera. Forget about western based camera companies. I said it before.
I also disagree that such camera is comparable to Fuji X or Nikon Zf. Fuji X is cropped sensor, Nikon Zf works quite well with most M lenses but still requires adapter and is more bulky. Not the same at all - alternative options, yes, but a strawman argument in this discussion.
We shouldn't underestimate other companies suddenly offering something not many expected and getting into a niche where the door was left open by established camera companies. Last time I recall this occurring was when i. e. Canon was dragging its feet to improve in FF sensor resolution and DR. Instead they only focused on AF performance improvement for years. They eyed Nikon and didn't see the D850 as threat for their business since switching brands involved new set of lenses etc etc. And then - bang - Sony came all of sudden with mirrorless FF cameras including high resolution and DR which actually could use all kind of lenses. Canon was in panic mode, so was Leica for some time. I am not saying Sony will offer something like the M EV1 - that's not going to happen. Just saying that others we won't even think of see an opportunity and offer an better alternative disrupting the market. This is the game!
dalegaspi wrote:
I suppose that's an argument that holds...if only it didn't have an electronic-only shutter using a sensor with a slow readout then it would be a lot stronger...but I suppose for a lot of situations it's not a big deal for most users.
The Hasselblad XCD V lenses all have a mechanical leaf shutter. The body itself also has an electronic shutter option.
dalegaspi wrote:
I suppose that's an argument that holds...if only it didn't have an electronic-only shutter using a sensor with a slow readout then it would be a lot stronger...but I suppose for a lot of situations it's not a big deal for most users.
Every V lens has a leaf shutter. Every XCD lens for that matter. I don’t think anyone is considering using M lenses on a HB as a comparison to the EV1. For that there are plenty of 24x36mm options.
I am only comparing both systems with their relevant mechanical shutters.
LBJ2 wrote:
Some interesting comments to consider. Thanks for posting. Where can I find some resources to further scrutinize Hasselblad lenses. Lot of chatter about HB cameras, but not finding much on their lenses. I've looked at "some" available MTFs, but would like to know more.
Till now I would have never considered comparing EV1 with HB.
HB has a system brochure with all the MTF’s in it and lots of system info. There’s also many reviews as each lens came out.
To replicate the EV1 experience you are limited to the V lenses in the system. These have a focus clutch (like some olympus and panasonic lenses). They are the 25, 38, 55 and 90mm lenses. All f2.5 (2.0 equiv). The 90 is the sharpest followed closely by the 25. The 38 and 55 have more character. Sharp in the middle with some falloff in the last 10% of the corners. Think 50mm Summilux M rather than 50mm APO Summicron. You can always get thinner DoF on the smaller format than 33x44 but the fall off is different.
There’s also E (zoom) and P (compact) lenses as well as the gen 1 XCD (slower AF and no AFC) lenses but none of these have the focus clutch if it’s the manual focus experience you want. The 28 and 75 P lenses make a SL3 and equivalent lens look like a giant in comparison.
If you have the availability a rental of the X2D2 with a 38 or 55V is a fun week. The X2D system is an ergonomic masterpiece. The mk2 add a few nice touches like AFC and eye detect.
dalegaspi wrote:
it's more-or-less the same reason I don't buy the TTArtisan or 7artisan or LLL Leica lens design clones.
Thats of course a personal decision - I am using all kind of M brands to their best. I am not a collector, so I buy where I see fit/need for a good price/quality ratio. I have i. e. the TTArtisan 11/2.8 fisheye M lens which is fantastic and on par in image quality with my much more expensive Canon 8-15/4 L EF lens at 11 mm.
retrofocus wrote:
Look at the M lenses made by TTArtisan, 7Artisans DJ Optical etc etc - all very well made with metal, optically good, many of them in >90% similar in quality to 10x more expensive Leica M lenses. Yes I expect compromises for a much lower price - but the EV1 is a purely electronic camera, no rangefinder based mechanical parts - I believe a Chinese company can quite easily copy an EV1, put a cheaper FF sensor in maybe even with a less high resolving EVF but still more than good enough. I think this would be a very attractive package for many.
Funny that always the Pixii is brought up when this is mentioned - main culprit is that it is much too pricey for what it offers! It is a failure. I don't think any western based company will be able to build and sell an EV1-like camera for much cheaper - they are all done here. Government-supported Chinese companies are IMO the only ones up for this potential task. And I say this as not being a Chinese product fan per se - but I admit that they are doing things no other country is able to do anymore. ...Show more →
Wasn’t it lensrentals that concluded that the Chinese lenses aren’t that well built?
I’m sure the Chinese could also undercut the other brands, but there must be a reason that hasn’t happened yet.
tzhang4284 wrote:
The problem is this camera you described is dead on arrival. Leica M works because it's a luxury good - there's no other reason for it to exist - I own one and I understand the mental gymnastics behind justifying owning one. However, the moment it becomes a 7Artisans M1-EVF camera, it loses 90% of its value. If it costs $1,000, you can buy a lot better cameras for $1,000, same at each price point. If you can afford a Leica, this is like buying a knockoff handbag or watch.
From a customer segmentation perspective, the number of people who want this is very small and not profitable - price sensitive manual focus camera lens fans. You're better off making lenses and adapters to meet customer demand than to create this dedicated camera....Show more →
Part of me agrees with you, but another part just wants a small FF camera to reliably use M mount lenses to their widest extent. The Nikons are just too large.
johnvanr wrote:
Wasn’t it lensrentals that concluded that the Chinese lenses aren’t that well built?
I’m sure the Chinese could also undercut the other brands, but there must be a reason that hasn’t happened yet.
I am not following lensrentals, but this likely derives from a time when the first Chinese M lenses were released. Many of them had some minor issues which were corrected in later versions. Modern Versions are actually very good both in built and optical quality - but it also meant that due to higher demand for many of them the price went up (still a lot cheaper than Leica M). Light Lens Lab is one example which specializes on remaking vintage Leica M lenses in very good quality. Or look at the Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH which is very similar and alike to the x-times more expensive Leica Summilux lens! I think they already undercut the market but to which degree I don't know. I only see and read that many M photographers are using them
I found when using the camera that the way the former frame lines lever could be configured to manage both peaking and magnification focus aids elegant, effective, and unique. No other camera on the market can do this.
Well, in that specific context I see what you mean. However, remember that the Fuji X100 series has a front lever to switch between focus modes, and they are considerably more useful, and three way - OVF, EVF, and the best: OVF with corner inset of the magnified EVF. A far, far superior, and more elegant solution to a focusing problem, at least in my mind, that Leica should have followed.
A Fuji full frame body that took M lenses natively, set up like an X100 would be a dream - an exceptionally well-conceived focusing experience, with peaking, magnification, and an OVF with screen in screen magnified focusing.
However, the moment it becomes a 7Artisans M1-EVF camera, it loses 90% of its value. If it costs $1,000, you can buy a lot better cameras for $1,000, same at each price point. If you can afford a Leica, this is like buying a knockoff handbag or watch.
I don’t agree. If it was well conceived and made (Typoch quality) it would be a bargain, and I think it would make very large sales. Not everyone is a posing snob wanting Veblen goods. If it worked well and opened up a good manual focus experience with all those beautiful M mount lenses, I think it would sell like hot cakes. Think full frame Fuji X100 focusing elegance and build, with native M mount lenses. Perfect!
wolfloid wrote:
I don’t agree. If it was well conceived and made (Typoch quality) it would be a bargain, and I think it would make very large sales. Not everyone is a posing snob wanting Veblen goods. If it worked well and opened up a good manual focus experience with all those beautiful M mount lenses, I think it would sell like hot cakes. Think full frame Fuji X100 focusing elegance and build, with native M mount lenses. Perfect!
+1. Man, if Fuji finally joined the mirrorless FF bandwagon with M-mount - a disaster for Leica would happen. But I doubt Fuji will take this route, but who knows - what Sony did in 2013 with FF MLC was also something nobody expected all of sudden.
Because the X2D with a V lens has a remarkably similar manual focus experience as the EV1. Much closer than the Q is. Sure the HB is bigger but it’s cheaper, has IBIS, better IQ, AF ability and a flippy screen, For some it can replace and M for travel. It’s a running joke with the Australian Leica Ambassadors that I turn up on Leica trips with a Hasselblad and not an M. And the HB is nothing like a GFX 100Sii. Nothing. Fujis FBW lenses are an awful MF experience. The V lenses are fabulous.
Having most of these systems here I think that an X2D with a V lens is the closest you can get to the EV1 experience. Certainly closer than a Q3 (lens ergonomics) or an A7CR (horrid EVF). When we’re talking about the HB it’s with native V lenses, not adapting.
As @SrMi@ said earlier, if the EV1 had IBIS this might not be as much an alternative but if you have an X2D you’ll know that choosing an EV1 over the HB is a very big ask,
I agree. The X2D2 is a perfectly valid comparison to the EV1. If you're shooting landscapes, architecture, or just travel photography, it's the highest quality digital camera (we're not discussing film). The Leica M is famous for its mid-range lenses, and there are many modern and vintage lenses that have unique character. But the shooting technique and shutter speed of the EV1 and X2D2 are very similar (even the X2D2 is more comfortable, but heavier).
wolfloid wrote:
I don’t agree. If it was well conceived and made (Typoch quality) it would be a bargain, and I think it would make very large sales. Not everyone is a posing snob wanting Veblen goods. If it worked well and opened up a good manual focus experience with all those beautiful M mount lenses, I think it would sell like hot cakes. Think full frame Fuji X100 focusing elegance and build, with native M mount lenses. Perfect!
Isn't a poser someone who pretends to be someone they're not - so isn't wanting a Leica M knockoff the definition of a posing snob? Leica Ms certainly have snob appeal but definitely not a posing snob.
As for the more substantive comments - again you're operating in a niche within a niche - if you can build the full frame Fuji X100 - you would skip this step and just go to an L-mount. The amount of autofocus camera users is significantly higher than wanting a dedicated manual focus camera. You have multiple substitutes in manual focus lenses made for mirrorless cameras and adapters for M-lenses.
Zeiss tried to do Leica but half off strategy with the Ikon ZM and ZX1 - didn't really get traction. I remember all the complaints about the ZX1 being made in China as a negative for it. The most success they had was the Loxia and Batis lens lines for Sony before E-mount got saturated.
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retrofocus wrote:
+1. Man, if Fuji finally joined the mirrorless FF bandwagon with M-mount - a disaster for Leica would happen. But I doubt Fuji will take this route, but who knows - what Sony did in 2013 with FF MLC was also something nobody expected all of sudden.
This is wishful thinking - Fuji would not. There's no reason anyone aside from Leica would want to invest in the M-mount at this point when you're targeting more than the 20 people on this forum who might want it.
This is wishful thinking - Fuji would not. There's no reason anyone aside from Leica would want to invest in the M-mount at this point when you're targeting more than the 20 people on this forum who might want it.
Are you an oracle to know exactly what the future brings? We continue to disagree what other companies might do even I agree that Fuji is unlikely going the FF route as I already said earlier. At this point I don't see a reason to discuss with you further.
M leases are having a bit of a resurgence in the last few years. Every other month a new Chinese manufacturer (not a slander) pops up with an M mount lens. Some good. Some less so. Some great.
I think the reason for this is lots of photographers are chasing being more involved in the photo taking process. Grab an A1ii or R1 and you have to do nothing but point it in the right direction and push a button. With phones and AI, more people want ”photography” to be like the (not so) good old days. It’s the same thing that’s leading the film resurgence.
M lenses are heavy little brass balls of tactility. they can be adapted to anything. And they are. Leica knows this and they want a piece of that pie. Sure, the SL3 does the job but an M body has the matching tactility to the lenses. Fuji doesn’t. They’re cheap feeling even though they’re functionally excellent. The Vikings Zf has the tech but not the vibe.
Simply put some photographers are actually craving that the camera does less. Yeah, I get that you can turn stuff off in camera but it’s not the same. The EV1 being slow is the whole point. Having to get involved in making photos is the whole point. If you think the M11 is better because it doesn’t have video, then you get this already.
The EV1 is not a Zf, A7CR or Visoflex alternative. It’s its own thing. This is a risk for Leica. And they’ve taken a conservative approach to the EV1 for sure. But I do know they’re very keen for it to work. Like the Monochrom, Leica hopes “if you build it they will come”.
I get that most here aren’t buyers for this camera. Too many purists on this forum for that. But I do think some will be very very attracted to this shooting experience. Maybe even some will buy their first Leica. A EV1. To get away from the menus of the big three. Time will tell.
As a Sigma FP-L owner, while I love its compactness, there are three pain points make me unable to fully love the camera:
1. No EVF
2. No full mechanical shutter
3. No wireless connectivity
Leica M-EV1 happen to address those three pain points perfectly. I also have a M11 monochrom, however my most frequent focal length are 21mm and 90mm, not the best use case with M's ovf.
The only issue is the price, however it is my problem, not Leica's problem. I always feel funny to see people complaining high price of Leica, because no one is forced to buy it. It's not like you are in a photography class and the teacher says you can only use Leica camera for the assignment. I have never seen people complaining something like Patek Philippe watch, or the $5000+ ticket price for the first row seat of NBA or MLB games too expansive, why bashing Leica for the price?
retrofocus wrote:
I disagree - price matters. It surely wouldn't be a collector item - but I couldn't care less about this. I would buy a "7Artisans M1-EVF camera" as in your example for $1K in a blink of an eye since no other EVF based MLC gives me the comfort to mount M lenses directly without adapter on the camera and ensures lenses are working with the camera sensor without corner fringing or coloration. I personally just hope that such camera suddenly sees light of day - I can ensure you soon after the M EV1 would drop significantly in price, too. ...Show more →
Price totally matters. Using EV cars as an example, for the longest time Tesla ruled the roost. And in places like China not only did they sell really well, but were seen as a status symbol. Fast forward just a couple of years and now Chinese EV mfgs are offering the same thing for a fraction of the price.
And those are selling extremely well.
If there was a legit FF M-Ev1 ‘copy’ at a fraction of the price, it would do really well. Especially seeing the gigantic lens ecosystem out there. And the very fact that Leica has turned it into an EVF camera actually makes it much easier and cheaper for a rival to appear.
If that happens, the odds are not only would it be a lot cheaper, but most probably a lot more advanced too. See the Chinese EV auto industry.
