RustyRus wrote:
Says the guy that bought a special edition Hasselblad Earth Explorer- Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree maybe?
Come on, in the post-Hansen era Hasselblad has been far more serious about photography than Leica. The latest X2DII is a differentiated product which deserves its premium segment status.
I know folks are lamenting this vs. other cameras ... e.g. SL3 / Q3 / Hassy / et al. for certain omissions.
It has been mentioned that the processor is a limiting factor, but I think the basis for the limitation begins in the smaller form factor that uses a smaller battery. In the realm of the quid pro quo processing vs. the attributes that folks are lamenting as absent ... the smaller battery (AAA sized cells vs. AA sized cells, it seems) can only support so much juice. While other form factors use larger batteries (real estate from built in grip or thicker body, etc., the M form factor has some limitations in play.
I'm assuming that the processing algorithm's retained their IQ demands, so it doesn't leave a lot of headroom for additional power demands.
I realize that everyone, wants everything that CAN be done. But, with the restrictions of retaining the M form factor, I think they're a bit hamstrung to making certain quid pro quo decisions. Adding in the EVF is additional load, other processing aids, etc. may have been kept out of the equation for power management.
RustyBug wrote:
I know folks are lamenting this vs. other cameras ... e.g. SL3 / Q3 / Hassy / et al. for certain omissions.
It has been mentioned that the processor is a limiting factor, but I think the basis for the limitation begins in the smaller form factor that uses a smaller battery. In the realm of the quid pro quo processing vs. the attributes that folks are lamenting as absent ... the smaller battery (AAA sized cells vs. AA sized cells, it seems) can only support so much juice. While other form factors use larger batteries (real estate from built in grip or thicker body, etc., the M form factor has some limitations in play.
I'm assuming that the processing algorithm's retained their IQ demands, so it doesn't leave a lot of headroom for additional power demands.
I realize that everyone, wants everything that CAN be done. But, with the restrictions of retaining the M form factor, I think they're a bit hamstrung to making certain quid pro quo decisions. Adding in the EVF is additional load, other processing aids, etc. may have been kept out of the equation for power management. ...Show more →
this is what Jono Slack says in a chat with him on th Leica Forum-
“Well . . . . I think this camera is a toe in the water - all the technology already exists and it probably wasn't the moment to bring out a radical new camera, the M12 is a way away, and the sensor for the M11 has no AF points on it.
What you are asking for would require a great deal of R&D - some people have been saying 'just stick a small sensor at the other end of the camera and use it for triangulation for a new patch" . . it's a great idea, but what happens when you put on a lens with a different focal length? do you still use the same other camera with the WATE and the 135 APO (of course not).
I agree a fresh perspective on symbolic focusing would be fabulous - and I think that Leica agree as well, but It would (will) cost a huge amount of money in R&D, and perhaps nobody wants a manual focus camera with an EVF anyway? (Lots of people think that - both here and at Leica - just look at the threads here).
So expecting them to spend tens of millions on something which most people don't seem to want?
I think this is a brave first step - if you don't want it - fine (I'm not sure I do either - as you have gathered by reading between the lines ) But if enough people do, then maybe the M EV2 will have an electronic rangefinder patch!
RustyRus wrote:
this is what Jono Slack says in a chat with him on th Leica Forum-
“Well . . . . I think this camera is a toe in the water - all the technology already exists and it probably wasn't the moment to bring out a radical new camera, the M12 is a way away, and the sensor for the M11 has no AF points on it.
What you are asking for would require a great deal of R&D - some people have been saying 'just stick a small sensor at the other end of the camera and use it for triangulation for a new patch" . . it's a great idea, but what happens when you put on a lens with a different focal length? do you still use the same other camera with the WATE and the 135 APO (of course not).
I agree a fresh perspective on symbolic focusing would be fabulous - and I think that Leica agree as well, but It would (will) cost a huge amount of money in R&D, and perhaps nobody wants a manual focus camera with an EVF anyway? (Lots of people think that - both here and at Leica - just look at the threads here).
So expecting them to spend tens of millions on something which most people don't seem to want?
I think this is a brave first step - if you don't want it - fine (I'm not sure I do either - as you have gathered by reading between the lines ) But if enough people do, then maybe the M EV2 will have an electronic rangefinder patch!
Imo, I see this as a "mid" release of the M11. We get different versions -D, -P, etc. that come off the base model, mid cycle, that are often incremental differences of feature addition / subtraction. I figure they were hamstrung to franken modify the M11 with the EVF. The M12 version however, can be built from the ground up.
The salient point about being built from the ground up is that the chassis arrangement for the RF may have internal limitations to battery size. With a redesign of internal chassis (not from the M11 base) from a fresh start, they may be able to design real estate for a larger battery. THEN, some of those juice hungry features can be added / improved.
Kind of a different way of agreeing with the "toe in the water" perspective ... mid-cycle. If the EVF is gonna be a top tier keeper, it's gonna need all the juice it can harness.
dalegaspi wrote:
- and finally, the startup time...same as the M11 (according to PetaPixel preview). As a software engineer by trade, this somewhat angers me. So with the time between the M11 and this one NOBODY was able to optimize the firmware? Listen, Leica people... M11 startup time is _tolerable_ because since it has an optical VF, you can focus while it takes its sweet time to boot up. This thing? cool, now I actually HAVE to wait for it to boot up so i can use it. You don't need that "decisive moment"
You'd probably know better because of your background, but it seems to me that Leica makes their cameras (or at least M cameras) do a full disk scan at start up. The more images/files already on the memory card, the longer it takes to start up. This also happens with my Canon cameras, but only becomes noticeable when there are close to 10,000 images on a card.
With my Leicas the solution that eliminates slow start time is turning off sleep/power saving and forcing the camera to stay on for as long as I use it. If you go this route, just be sure to bring extra batteries.
I was really really excited for this camera. I was considering pre-ordering one just last night as I was getting pumped up about it(the last camera I pre-ordered was the original Sony a7.)
I have an M11 and love fast lenses. I also have really bad eyesight. I wanted the Visoflex 2, but the laggy MF in the Visoflex gave me headaches and was annoying(the only EVF cameras I've tried without laggy MF is the SL series and the Sonys.)
I did not expect this camera to be inexpensive, in fact I fully expected it to be as much or more than a M11.
I did not expect this camera to have any super groundbreaking tech or features.
That being said, I'm pretty disappointed. With losing the expensive and labor intensive rangefinder mechanism, I would have expected this would have the same upgrades as the M11P over the M11.
I was also hoping that the viewfinder would blow my mind with quality, framerate, and maybe an upgraded processor or whatnot to make the manual focus viewfinder experience industry leading.
I was also optimistic that they would introduce some sort of MF assist technology like the Nikon, or some sort of a hybrid option. With Leica carrying the MF torch, I was hoping they would implement a new MF tool, or at least optional tech(something to turn on and off like the green square in Nikon) that would give this a compelling narrative.
With the M EV1 as is, I just cannot come anywhere near justifying paying $9k for this camera. I'll stick to my M11 for the time being and maybe buy a used one when they get in the $4k range. There is just nothing compelling about this release. All I could tell my wife was it's a M11 with a viewfinder, there's literally nothing else to it to say. At least give me some R&D on the MF assist to justify the high price. Or at least give me the M11P upgrades.
I'm pretty disappointed, but of course, still very curious to try this when it reaches stores.
As I currently feel, I cannot imagine myself buying this new.
So.. When the first rumours about an M camera with EVF started to pop up quite a while ago, I started to worry that the whole M line in the future will have electronic viewfinders from now on. And I was hoping that it will be something that Fuji did with X-Pro line.
Now that the naming scheme has changed from M11-V to M EV1, it indicates to me that there will still be traditional rangefinder line of M (say, M12) and EVF line of M separately?
Are there any rumours going on regarding new rangefinder M camera?
The Petapixel review is pretty good. What is telling is Chris asked Leica what the battery life would be, but Leica did not give him an answer (I think he said they said they didn't know!)
flash wrote:
I managed to spend some time with the EV1 last night. I used Nick Rains’ camera and asked the appropriate questions.
1. The AF aids are due to the processor. Leica considered more advanced focus aids but the Maestro 3 can’t handle them.
2. The focus experience is somewhat better than the Q3. There’s something about the purely mechanical lenses that really helps.
3. The EVF is vastly better than the Visoflex.
4. It’s much faster to focus with longer lenses and slower with wider lenses than the M11.
5. 64GB of memory disappoints.
6. The peaking has been tweaked for improved performance.
I was using the camera in a dimly lit bar. Focusing, for me, was pretty easy, even without focusing aids. Similar to my experience with the X2D2 and V lenses, but smaller. I don’t think this camera is for everyone but if you like M’s but your eyes say no to the RF, this is the best option. Sure the Zf has better mf aids but there’s a reason people still use Q’s and M’s over those larger cameras.
This gives me some hope. If the manual focus while zoomed in in the viewfinder is snappy and has no lag(hopefully way better than the visoflex 2) then I may be a buyer of this in the used market. If this camera cost the same new as an SL3 I'd probably have an entirely different opinion of it, because it seems like more of the budget M series camera than a flagship EVF model.
LBJ2 wrote:
Excellent reference. From the man himself. Thank you for bringing this my attention.
It’s a logical answer, but it also underscores my very issue with the Leica M that I had hoped this camera would address. That is that it’s just not a good carry-everywhere camera if you’re working outside of its narrow abilities. With the rangefinder model, you have a great tool to shoot between 28mm to 50mm, but better not wide open and not in heavy rain. With the EVF model, you can use a wider range of lenses and you can shoot wide open, but in many circumstances, the process will be slow. And you still can’t use it in heavy rain.
Yet, to read that answer is like them saying that it’s a tool and sometimes it’s better to use your $9000 rangefinder and sometimes you take your $9000 EVF camera. Not in my world.
Instead of this very strange camera, it would be better if Leica released the S4, which is better than the X2D2 or the Q for autofocus L lenses. Another five years of this kind of work from Leica, and the Chinese will eat it alive.
Sorry to be late posting my impressions after spending the afternoon shooting the EV-1 during a rainy day down in Bologna. But, my phone battery ran out and I couldn't post on the train ride home to Parma. In any case, here are my thoughts.
They had 3 cameras for sale and a loaner for testing at the Leica Store Bologna yesterday. They had invited a number of people who were good customers and a couple who had been waiting to by an M until they got to see this one. After the tests the only one I saw make a decision and buy chose a traditional M11 in Black Paint over the EV-1. From what I saw this seemed to sum up the group's reaction to the camera. No one was moved to swap this new camera out for their existing one or add the EV-1 to their kit. Surprisingly this included one gentleman who only shot his M11-P using the Visoflex, never the Range Finder. I would characterize the groups overall reaction as luke warm.
On to more detail:
The camera is an M11 body and all M11 accessories fit. There will be a specific grip but they didn't have one on site yet so no details about that.
The camera is much lighter than a regular black M11. 80 grams is what they said. 180 grams lighter than my silver M11. That makes a huge difference.
The EVF is basically exactly the same as the one on the Q3 as far as brightness, size, resolution, and experience. If you like the Q3 for manual focus you will like this one.. It is far superior in my view to what you get using the VisoFlex on an M11 in my opinion. Much, much smoother and I like the integrated position much better as well. I tested with matching 50mm Summilux lenses side by side with the SL3-S. The SL was a whole level up better in every respect. Brighter, easier to focus, more detail, smoother, and more stable when zooming in due to the SL3's excellent IBIS. If I am going to shoot my M lenses through an EVF, using focus peaking and magnification then I am definitely going to do it on my SL3 not an EV-1. The better experience is enough to overcome my form factor preference for an M body. Your preferences on this may vary so try it out.
The frame lines lever is of course no longer used for that. You are given three choices for functions using the lever. It can be set to toggle on/off focus peaking. Or, you can set to to magnify for focusing. Finally you can set it to to look like you are changing frame lines, but what it is actually showing you frame lines of crops overlayed on the full image. These crops will actually only be applied to in camera jpegs, not RAW files. Clearly not something most of use would ever find useful.
The only focus aids available are Focus Peaking and Zoom in to focus. Nothing we haven't had from other leicas for a long time now. In order to enable Auto Zoom on focus Leica has left the the focus coupler lever in the camera to detect focus changing. What I found is that Focus Peaking is not very good when shooting very wide apertures in low light. There is just not enough contrast in this situation for the peaking to be strong enough to help. So this camera is unlikely to help improve hit rates in exactly the situations where people have the most problems using the Range Finder. Disappointing in my opinion. When using the rear screen for framing and focusing the experience and accuracy is exactly the same with either the standard M cameras or the new EV-1.
Interestingly enough the camera does have the authentication features of the M11-P but only 64gb of internal memory like a standard M11. Sort of half way between the M11 variants.
Besides what is mentioned above the camera seems to be the same as any M11.
To sum up, my reaction is luke warm like the majority of others that were there and what I am reading in various posts on the internet. Certainly, I am not excited enough to buy one. For me personally I find this camera to be only a standard mirrorless manual focusing camera, that is behind a bit on features from some other options, and very much on the expensive side when comparing. I do love shooting my Leica cameras, and always want to wish Leica the best success with its products. Hopefully, it will find a solid user base, and help Leica achieve financial success.
If anyone has any specific questions feel free to ask and I will do my best to provide straight forward answers.
1bwana1 wrote:
Sorry to be late posting my impressions after spending the afternoon shooting the EV-1 during a rainy day down in Bologna. But, my phone battery ran out and I couldn't post on the train ride home to Parma. In any case, here are my thoughts.
They had 3 cameras for sale and a loaner for testing at the Leica Store Bologna yesterday. They had invited a number of people who were good customers and a couple who had been waiting to by an M until they got to see this one. After the tests the only one I saw make a decision and buy chose a traditional M11 in Black Paint over the EV-1. From what I saw this seemed to sum up the group's reaction to the camera. No one was moved to swap this new camera out for an EV-1. Surprisingly this included one gentleman who only shot his M11-P using the Visoflex, never the Range Finder. I would characterize the groups overall reaction as luke warm.
On to more detail:
The camera is an M11 body and all M11 accessories fit. There will be a specific grip but they didn't have one on site yet so no details about that.
The camera is much lighter than a regular black M11. 80 grams is what they said. 180 grams lighter than my silver M11. That makes a huge difference.
The EVF is basically exactly the same as the one on the Q3 as far as brightness, size, resolution, and experience. If you like the Q3 for manual focus you will like this one.. It is far superior in my view to what you get using the VisoFlex on an M11 in my opinion. Much, much smoother and I like the integrated position much better as well. I tested with matching 50mm Summilux lenses side by side with the SL3-S. The SL was a whole level up better in every respect. Brighter, easier to focus, more detail, smoother, and more stable when zooming in due to the SL3's excellent IBIS. If I am going to shoot my M lenses through an EVF, using focus peaking and magnification then I am definitely going to do it on my SL3 not an EV-1. The better experience is enould to overcome my form factor preference for an M body. Your preferences on this may vary so try it out.
The frame lines lever is of course no longer used for that. You are given three choices for functions using the lever. It can be set to toggle on/off focus peaking. Or, you can set to to magnify for focusing. Finally you can set it to tool like changing frame lines, but what it is actually showing you frame lines of crops overlayed on the full image. These crops will actually only be applied to in camera jpegs, not RAW files. Clearly not something most of use would ever find useful.
The only focus aids available are Focus Peaking and Zoom in to focus. Nothing we haven't had o other leicas for a long time now. In order to enable Auto Zoom on focus Leica has left the the focus coupler lever in the camera to detect focus changing. What I found is that Focus Peaking is not very good when shooting very wide apertures in low light. There is just not enough contrast in this situation for the peaking to be strong enough to help. So in this camera is unlikely to help improve hit rate in exactly the situations where people have the most problems using the Range Finder. Disappointing in my opinion. When using the rear screen for framing and focusing the experience and accuracy is exactly the same with either the standard M cameras or the new EV-1.
Interestingly enough the camera does have the authentication features of the M11-P but only 64gb of internal memory like a standard M11. Sort of half way between the M11 variants.
Besides what is mentioned above the camera seems to be the same as any M11.
To sum up, my reaction is luke warm like the majority of others that were there and what I am reading in various posts on the internet. Certainly, I am not excited enough to buy one. For me personally I find this camera to be only a standard mirrorless manual focusing camera, that is behind a bit on features from some other options, and very much on the expensive side when comparing. I do love shooting my Leica cameras, and always want to wish Leica the best success with its products. Hopefully, it will find a solid user base, and help Leica achieve financial success.
If anyone has any specific questions feel free to ask and I will do my best to provide straight forward answers....Show more →
Never had a horse in this race, but still, I was interested on what Leica will come up with. Now, that we all have found out, I must say I am dissapointed. I was not the user target for this camera, but this lack on any innovation is very dissapointing. At least at this price point.
Now I am more curious to find out, from the M-EV1's targeted users (those requesting, at LUF and LSI, an M equiped with an EVF), how satisfied are they with the Leica's response to their wishes. Sales will tell...
Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I reviewed the EV1 for a Spanish newspaper/website, and my impressions weren’t great. The EVF is mediocre and offers zero innovation. It’s not significantly better than the Visoflex, and it lacks some of the nice manual-focus aids Nikon includes in its Z cameras. I’m also not a fan of removing the ISO dial, and the body—too light for my taste—makes the camera feel a bit cheap.
Does this move make sense for Leica? Of course. Those with poor eyesight, or anyone who simply wants to use M lenses with a more user-friendly interface, will find it appealing. But I think it’s important to point out the conservative approach Leica has taken here.
